The 1000 year Millennium from the Bible

[TMSO]

The first chapter of Ryrie's book, a text at Dallas Seminary for decades, begins "The distinction between the two programs--Israel and the church--is the sine qua non of Dispensationalism." (s.q.n. = the single defining thing).

You really do not know what Ephesians is saying. All your allusions are from Romans. The main thing is that the mystery was not that Gentiles would believe, it is that that they gain co-inheritance and co-membership status with "Israel" through the Gospel, 3:6. That is exactly where the member of Judaism would have expected to read 'through the torah.'

Yes, a remnant is always saved, but as Isaiah said "It is too small a thing for (the Servant) to save the remnant of Israel; (God) will make (the Servant) a light to the nations." Proof again that the mission to the Gentiles is what Israel was destined to do, and was no surprise or mystery.

Maybe this would help. There is one program/plan of redemption that is unified at all points. However, within this program, there are two tracts. One for Israel, and one for the church. And by Israel, for those who keep not doing this, you have to understand that this is the Nation of Israel, of which there are those who are truly of Israel, and those who are not. The remnant, the spiritual Israel of God's elect Jews, and the Nation of Israel, the secular, those who are not of the remnant, the elect.

Redemption was ALWAYS to come from Israel, and even David knew that. The Messiah would be of Israel, of David's seed. When they rejected, as Paul says, the gospel went to the Gentiles. And at the end, it will come back to Israel. You have to stop burying what Paul said. There is a blindness, but Paul specifically stated that it will be lifted when the times of the Gentiles has come in. At this point, God will deal with the Nation of Israel, after which, the only survivors will be the elect/remnant of Israel, and they will be saved. And again, there are Jews in the church, and they will continue to join, but the bulk have been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And again, we are ALL SAVED BY THE SAME THING, IN THE SAME MANNER. It is one plan of redemption. Just because there are two different groups that take two different ways to get to the same conclusion, doesn't mean there are two conclusions.

 

[EarlyActs]

TMSO wrote:
The remnant, the spiritual Israel of God's elect Jews, and the Nation of Israel, the secular, those who are not of the remnant, the elect.

Could we just read Eph 3:5,6 instead? I don't even know what this line means. We are compelled to be as truly spiritual about the OT as the NT is because "that rock (in the desert) was Christ."

 

[EarlyActs]

TMSO:
You have to stop burying what Paul said.

That is not the problem. The prob is reading it as a D'ist does. The D'ist sees blocks of times, end to end, where its this group then that group etc. No such thing in the NT. He would love to have more Jewish believers! Rom 11 before the olive tree image even starts. "All day long I have held out my hands" means he wants them in, not as a 'block of time.' I have researched the end of Rom 11 for 5 decades and with v30 being the conclusion, I know of almost no D'ist statment that I can trust.

 

[EarlyActs]

TMSO:
deal with the Nation of Israel,
You misunderstand. It's not the nation; that's not what "all Israel" is because you then have the impossibility that all the racial Jews who have died down through the years are not saved in "all Israel." This is so simple. There are no ordinary NT passages where this is the case: Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, 2 P 3, Heb 9, Thess.

Speaking of Hebrews, it is quite clear that our connection to the Jerusalem above is the ultimate destiny and it dismisses the old. The whole replacement concept is misunderstood, from ch 8. It is misunderstood because people never bothered to understand Gal 3:17.

 

[EarlyActs]

btw, the concept of the fulness of the Gentiles is correctly handled in Judaism (at least there is one thing!) that happens at the end of time, when there is then a NHNE. This is one thing they have correct from Isaiah. Unless you mean the NHNE, there is no other dealing with the race-nation.

 

[EarlyActs]

TMSO,
if you do find a place where D'ism says Israel and the church are a unified redemptive doctrine (same place, time, salvation, people), please let me know.

When the movement started, it said 'the Bible does not make sense; you need us to help you see how it makes sense'--by splitting it into two programs!

 

[EarlyActs]

The question is not whether the race-nation has a right to existence, but whether there is any significance to a future phase with Israel in light of the completeness of the Christ event; ie, "Whatever was promised to the fathers has been filled for us...in the resurrection." Acts 13. This is a very different picture from overeager future prophecy.

 

[TMSO]

TMSO wrote:
The remnant, the spiritual Israel of God's elect Jews, and the Nation of Israel, the secular, those who are not of the remnant, the elect.

Could we just read Eph 3:5,6 instead? I don't even know what this line means. We are compelled to be as truly spiritual about the OT as the NT is because "that rock (in the desert) was Christ."

There is the nation of Israel, of which Paul said that not all who are of all Israel are Israel. Which, would mean that there are those of Israel (the nation of) that are part of Israel.

 

[EarlyActs]

There is the nation of Israel, of which Paul said that not all who are of all Israel are Israel. Which, would mean that there are those of Israel (the nation of) that are part of Israel.

That's right. Furthermore, Rom 11 is making sure readers understand this retroactively back into the OT, which is why these things are not black and white. There has always been the community and there has always been a remnant. There are prob 10 illustrations of this in the letter to Hebrews. Since all those who have faith are part of the remnant, there are Gentiles in Hebrews 11, and "us" in Romans 9:24 is both Jew and Gentile.

One thing among several that eliminates Rom 11:26's Israel from being the race-nation is the impossibility of all the race-nation of all time being saved. So we already know he has reduced from that. So there is one program, and not a 2nd one in which the race-nation is "saved" in any sense different from the Christian believer.

I hope you can see the huge mistake of interpretation that sees time periods when only one group is involved, and then a sequential time when only another group is involved. There is nothing of the sort in the Bible. There are even declarations in Isaiah that God moved or 'brought out' other nations just like He did Israel.

 

[TMSO]

That's right. Furthermore, Rom 11 is making sure readers understand this retroactively back into the OT, which is why these things are not black and white. There has always been the community and there has always been a remnant. There are prob 10 illustrations of this in the letter to Hebrews. Since all those who have faith are part of the remnant, there are Gentiles in Hebrews 11, and "us" in Romans 9:24 is both Jew and Gentile.

One thing among several that eliminates Rom 11:26's Israel from being the race-nation is the impossibility of all the race-nation of all time being saved. So we already know he has reduced from that. So there is one program, and not a 2nd one in which the race-nation is "saved" in any sense different from the Christian believer.

I have already stated that Paul is clear that it is a remnant. Isaiah is also clear in Isaiah 4. In fact, the things that Israel goes through will be so bad that Isaiah says that when it comes to marriage, there will be seven women for every man. So bad will be the tribulation they face. And they understand, so only ask to take on the man's name that they may not be shamed. (No one wanted to be the "Old Maid".) And Isaiah says that all in Jerusalem and surroundings are the holy. So the remnant that belongs to God, His elect. Again, I link to Zechariah where Jesus comes to Israel, they look and weep, and God opens rivers of repentance. That speaks to salvation, and it is in/through Christ. Kind of a visible manifestation of what Paul faced on the way to Damascus.

I hope you can see the huge mistake of interpretation that sees time periods when only one group is involved, and then a sequential time when only another group is involved. There is nothing of the sort in the Bible. There are even declarations in Isaiah that God moved or 'brought out' other nations just like He did Israel.

There is no mistake. There are times involved. Israel's time was from Abraham up to the rejection of Christ as Messiah. (That is A LOT of time.) Then God deals with the Gentiles, which even Jesus states is "another flock". A separation. A different group, yet about to be made part of the one. He deals with Israel in the end, because Israel is still His chosen people. Jerusalem is still His beloved city. The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy are set aside for... Israel.

Isaiah 4:
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

 

[EarlyActs]

Hi TMSO,
I think one of the really important things to know here is the trinity of Judaism, as explained by R. Prager. It is Yahweh--torah--'eretz (God, law, land). He says this is deduced from the torah.

The thing is that there are Messianic Jewish Christians and you can check their short list of doctrines, as a denomination, and 'eretz will be often be there. You must believe in the sacredness of the land just like you must believe in atonement for your sins in Christ.

There is no such thing in the NT, of course, but I mention this to clarify what 2 programs produces. D'ism is just a modern form that could only 'reconcile' the overall message of the Bible by having 2 programs. Then there is the problem sometimes of which one is to be considered as 'first' (this is actually what Jesus is getting at in Jn 3 when mentioning being born 'anothen'). To Messianics, you start with Israel. The Christian entity is a 2nd program. D'ism has adopted this.

['anothen' is more often 'from the beginning' or 'from above' or 'from the top (in the sense of reading an account). Nic needed to hear this because the prevailing belief held by Judaism was that the physical lineage was supreme. Jesus was saying the message at the beginning of Genesis was.]

But if you read the NT as is, the Christian entity is 1st, is 'anothen,' and the physical seed of Abraham, is not on that level, even though the narrative is located there. Gen 1-11 is for all nations, and provides a basis for the end of the OT transitioning to the NT: that the Servant would be gathering believers from all nations to Himself. The Pentecost miracle of actual languages heard from one speaker with one message is the 'answer' to the curse of Bab-El. That message was that the Davidic king had come and was enthroned.

 

[EarlyActs]

I have already stated that Paul is clear that it is a remnant. Isaiah is also clear in Isaiah 4. In fact, the things that Israel goes through will be so bad that Isaiah says that when it comes to marriage, there will be seven women for every man. So bad will be the tribulation they face. And they understand, so only ask to take on the man's name that they may not be shamed. (No one wanted to be the "Old Maid".) And Isaiah says that all in Jerusalem and surroundings are the holy. So the remnant that belongs to God, His elect. Again, I link to Zechariah where Jesus comes to Israel, they look and weep, and God opens rivers of repentance. That speaks to salvation, and it is in/through Christ. Kind of a visible manifestation of what Paul faced on the way to Damascus.

There is no mistake. There are times involved. Israel's time was from Abraham up to the rejection of Christ as Messiah. (That is A LOT of time.) Then God deals with the Gentiles, which even Jesus states is "another flock". A separation. A different group, yet about to be made part of the one. He deals with Israel in the end, because Israel is still His chosen people. Jerusalem is still His beloved city. The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy are set aside for... Israel.

Isaiah 4:
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

re the remnant in a tribulation
You are confining the meaning to what you suppose is a future event. I have already mentioned why this limit is unsatisfactory. Why would the NT suddenly call one period located around Israel as 'the wrath of God' when the bulk of ordinary-language passages does not have this: Rom 2, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, the several in Thess, and of course Mt 24B (after the things in Judea)? Even on the question of justice: why call one period the wrath of God when that is upon all mankind who ever lived?

 

[EarlyActs]

I have already stated that Paul is clear that it is a remnant. Isaiah is also clear in Isaiah 4. In fact, the things that Israel goes through will be so bad that Isaiah says that when it comes to marriage, there will be seven women for every man. So bad will be the tribulation they face. And they understand, so only ask to take on the man's name that they may not be shamed. (No one wanted to be the "Old Maid".) And Isaiah says that all in Jerusalem and surroundings are the holy. So the remnant that belongs to God, His elect. Again, I link to Zechariah where Jesus comes to Israel, they look and weep, and God opens rivers of repentance. That speaks to salvation, and it is in/through Christ. Kind of a visible manifestation of what Paul faced on the way to Damascus.

There is no mistake. There are times involved. Israel's time was from Abraham up to the rejection of Christ as Messiah. (That is A LOT of time.) Then God deals with the Gentiles, which even Jesus states is "another flock". A separation. A different group, yet about to be made part of the one. He deals with Israel in the end, because Israel is still His chosen people. Jerusalem is still His beloved city. The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy are set aside for... Israel.

Isaiah 4:
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

The Zech reference here is exactly why the material should be read primarily about the 1st coming including the launch of the church. The apostles said so. It is not to be thought of as a 'puzzle' to figure out about the future.

 

[EarlyActs]

To TMSO:
Please regard and address my method about the OT:
1, that the apostles use, not ours, are the priority for finding the meaning
2, that the use of various OT passages in disregard for what the apostles said about similar materials all but disqualifies the interpretation. For ex., Ezek 38. If there are 2500 uses of the OT, and Ezek 38 is not one of them, why bother with it? Why is it a 'hallmark' passage?

You break these over and over.

 

[EarlyActs]

To TMSO:
the futurized use of Judaism' prophets was re-energized by a renegade evangelical novelist, G. Elliott, in her novel DANIEL DERONDA. She created all kinds of sympathy for the N. European Jew, but believed she was handling the NT properly by going 100% with their own a-Christian handling! See also the scholar Himmelfarb's THE JEWISH ODDYSSEY OF GEORGE ELLIOT.

 

[EarlyActs]

To TMSO:
the futurized use of Judaism' prophets was re-energized by a renegade evangelical novelist, G. Elliott, in her novel DANIEL DERONDA. She created all kinds of sympathy for the N. European Jew, but believed she was handling the NT properly by going 100% with their own a-Christian handling! See also the scholar Himmelfarb's THE JEWISH ODDYSSEY OF GEORGE ELLIOT.

Corr: she believed she was handling OT prophecy correctly.

 

[EarlyActs]

A fan of singing the Messiah wrote this comment on Youtube:

@tarawells7590 ​

2 years ago

Thank you for pointing out Handel's chronological order in prophesy! You are so right! Beginning with God's call for His people, Israel, to be comforted after His judgment on them, to see Him as their Messiah, then as they go through Tribulation, then entering the Millennium, and ultimately, getting to the Eternal Heaven! Amazing observation!

It is odd because the person who posted didn't refer to it this way as an amazing observation about future prophecy. All of it is written historically as about Christ's Gospel coming. The 'comfort' for ex. is that they are back from exile but no longer need to be concerned about fighting for their country as in the past! That's because there is a new mission coming for the new (type of) King. This is why the same Is 40 reference to comfort matches the gospel narrative reference to John the B'er as the voice in the wilderness, making the way straight for the King etc.

The Hallelujah chorus is then sung right after the resurrection, not at the end of time .

 

[EarlyActs]

I have already stated that Paul is clear that it is a remnant. Isaiah is also clear in Isaiah 4. In fact, the things that Israel goes through will be so bad that Isaiah says that when it comes to marriage, there will be seven women for every man. So bad will be the tribulation they face. And they understand, so only ask to take on the man's name that they may not be shamed. (No one wanted to be the "Old Maid".) And Isaiah says that all in Jerusalem and surroundings are the holy. So the remnant that belongs to God, His elect. Again, I link to Zechariah where Jesus comes to Israel, they look and weep, and God opens rivers of repentance. That speaks to salvation, and it is in/through Christ. Kind of a visible manifestation of what Paul faced on the way to Damascus.

There is no mistake. There are times involved. Israel's time was from Abraham up to the rejection of Christ as Messiah. (That is A LOT of time.) Then God deals with the Gentiles, which even Jesus states is "another flock". A separation. A different group, yet about to be made part of the one. He deals with Israel in the end, because Israel is still His chosen people. Jerusalem is still His beloved city. The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy are set aside for... Israel.

Isaiah 4:
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

Christ may two groups one in his church. It says so in the letters. I don't think there was two groups without Judaism thinking of two groups.

 

[EarlyActs]

I have already stated that Paul is clear that it is a remnant. Isaiah is also clear in Isaiah 4. In fact, the things that Israel goes through will be so bad that Isaiah says that when it comes to marriage, there will be seven women for every man. So bad will be the tribulation they face. And they understand, so only ask to take on the man's name that they may not be shamed. (No one wanted to be the "Old Maid".) And Isaiah says that all in Jerusalem and surroundings are the holy. So the remnant that belongs to God, His elect. Again, I link to Zechariah where Jesus comes to Israel, they look and weep, and God opens rivers of repentance. That speaks to salvation, and it is in/through Christ. Kind of a visible manifestation of what Paul faced on the way to Damascus.

There is no mistake. There are times involved. Israel's time was from Abraham up to the rejection of Christ as Messiah. (That is A LOT of time.) Then God deals with the Gentiles, which even Jesus states is "another flock". A separation. A different group, yet about to be made part of the one. He deals with Israel in the end, because Israel is still His chosen people. Jerusalem is still His beloved city. The 70 weeks of Daniel's prophecy are set aside for... Israel.

Isaiah 4:
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the [a]blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a [b]covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

Believers are called the chosen people in several NT letters, but in I P 2, they are called this in quotation of the OT and in string of other titles such as 'kingdom of priests.'

 

[EarlyActs]

re beloved city
Of course there was considerable grief at his time and about the coming revolt, but the NT letters are full of another city, above, of all saints.