So if we understand all Prophecies and Scripture, Doctrine.., what more do we need?

[Eleanor]

Not a nation with its own covenant.

My context is the OT.
The OT land covenant with Abraham and the law covenant with Moses were made with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is what I mean by "national" Israel, as distinct from the persons David or Phinehas to whom covenants were also made.

The "national" OT covenants (land, law) were not salvific.
Salvation was only by faith in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:3-4, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

Israel's existence as a nation was never in dispute. It's the premise they have their own covenant that is disputed. The "national" covenant is Abraham's covenant, a covenant made long before any geo-political nation-state called "Israel" ever existed. The nation doesn't have separate covenant.

This all started because you were trading posts with a member who believes everything in the Bible is for Israel, and nation-state Israel. Gentiles don't have a covenant with God; only Jews. In Post 50 the question was asked, "Where do we find salvation promised in the covenant?" and that question has now been answered and answered in a manner showing the covenant was not with nation-state Israel. At this point in the discussion.... there's been no separate salvific covenant established with nation-state Israel. You'll notice Post 51 does not cite such a covenant. That's not obvious to some because they think the Mosaic covenant is a strictly Israel covenant but 1) the nation did not exist at Sinai, and 2) the Law stipulated it applies to everyone! not just the nation of Israel.

Therefore, when you, in Post 62, say, "I am referring to the "national" covenants of Abraham and Moses, not to the individual covenant of David nor to the New Covenant....." something not actually stated in scripture is being invented. The nation of Abraham is a nation of many nations, a holy nation made of people chosen by God to be royal priests, the temple of God built on the foundation of Christ.

This is an easily decided matter. All you have to do is cite or quote an actual verse in the Bible that actually states (not one eisegetically made to say something it does not state) there is a separate nation-state covenant with Israel AND one that does not contradict with the pile of scriptures I have already posted. Absent any such statement in the Bible, the covenant Israel shares with its patriarchs is Abe's covenant, not one of their own as a geo-political nation-state.

Good summary, thanks for the re-cap.

 

[Arial]

Covenant. Contract. Instruments.

Covenant: covenants between humans are between two equal parties and can be seen as a type of contract, depending on what the covenant is about, since both parties receive "goods" or "services" in kind. This would be a legal covenant.

The term "covenant" is from the Latin (con venire) which means coming together, agreeing on promises, stipulations, privileges , responsibilities. In the Bible it is used in various ways. In political situations it can be translated treaty; in a social setting, it means a lifelong friendship agreement or marriage. In any case, it is establishing a bond between two parties, (berit). A relationship.

The covenants God makes with humans, God initiates, determines the elements to the bond. Persons are the recipients, not contributors. It is God binding Himself by oath to a specific relational agreement with humans---and His the natural world He created.

Contract: is an agreement between two or more parties, especially one written and enforceable by law.

Instrument: A tool or implement used to do or facilitate work, especially a small precision tool used by a professional. A device for recording, measuring, or controlling, especially as part of a control system.

 

[Josheb]

My context is the OT.

That is the problem to be solved. Reading the OT in neglect of the newer revelation is like reading 60% of a book and thinking the story is complete.

The OT land covenant with Abraham and the law covenant with Moses were made with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is what I mean by "national" Israel,

I understood what you meant the first time it was posted. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not the nation of Israel.

as distinct from the persons David or Phinehas to whom covenants were also made.

Okay. The fact remains there is no covenant made with Israel 400 years before Israel ever existed.

The "national" OT covenants (land, law) were not salvific.

My posts prove otherwise.

Salvation was only by faith in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:3-4, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

Yes, and that promise, and that covenant, were made in the OT, and they were made more than 400 years before the nation of Israel existed.

Good summary, thanks for the re-cap.

Just trying to do my part.

 

[Eleanor]

The land and law covenants were not salvific.

My posts prove otherwise.

Please present the texts where the covenant of Ge 15:9-21 granted salvation, or where the covenant of E 19-24 granted salvation.

 

[Josheb]

The land and law covenants were not salvific.

Please present the texts where the covenant of Ge 15:9-21 granted salvation, or where the covenant of E 19-24 granted salvation.

I LOATHE it when posters ask questions already answered or make requests for content already posted, and act as if that content does not already exist. I posted several posts, tying a host of scriptures together (from Genesis to Revelation) that meets that request. Go back and re-read the posts and do not ask me for something already provided. Stop wasting my time and stop cutting up scripture to make it say things it does not teach when taken as a whole. Prove your own position before asking others to prove a negative.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Covenant: covenants between humans are between two equal parties and can be seen as a type of contract, depending on what the covenant is about, since both parties receive "goods" or "services" in kind. This would be a legal covenant.

The term "covenant" is from the Latin (con venire) which means coming together, agreeing on promises, stipulations, privileges , responsibilities. In the Bible it is used in various ways. In political situations it can be translated treaty; in a social setting, it means a lifelong friendship agreement or marriage. In any case, it is establishing a bond between two parties, (berit). A relationship.

The covenants God makes with humans, God initiates, determines the elements to the bond. Persons are the recipients, not contributors. It is God binding Himself by oath to a specific relational agreement with humans---and His the natural world He created.

Contract: is an agreement between two or more parties, especially one written and enforceable by law.

Instrument: A tool or implement used to do or facilitate work, especially a small precision tool used by a professional. A device for recording, measuring, or controlling, especially as part of a control system.

Thank you for that.
I understand covenants and contracts, wills, POA's, treaties, etc.
Everything mankind has was copied from God who originated it, even darkness and evil.
Everything is of God. Human laws against murder, theft, and every law on human books has been copied from God.
But the covenants between God and a separated people such as Abram the Hebrew and his seed are not between two equal parties. And the specifics of each of the three salvation covenants in history are given in the text of when they are made. There is intent of covenant and there is the language of covenant. Covenant can even be one-sided. And covenants are instruments upon which a covenant is described.

Of the Abrahamic Covenant only one thing is required of Abraham and that is circumcision. Faith is not a requirement in this covenant.
Of the Mosaic Covenant obedience is required of the Children of Jacob/Israel. It is built upon the Abrahamic Covenant as circumcision has been carried over.
Of the New Covenant which was built upon the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants ,was sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ and implemented by Him. It is applied through the Advent of the Holy Spirit and circumcision has been carried over and obedience to God's Torah is required of the Children of Israel.
There is no record in the Hebrew Scripture of God making covenant with Gentiles (non-Hebrew.)
Salvation is of the LORD.
Salvation is of the Jews.
There is no such thing as salvation is of the Gentiles. Why is that?

 

[Josheb]

Everything mankind has was copied from God who originated it, even darkness and evil.

God originated darkness and evil?

Everything is of God.

Even darkness and evil?

 

[Arial]

I understand covenants and contracts, wills, POA's, treaties, etc.

But the covenants between God and a separated people such as Abram the Hebrew and his seed are not between two equal parties. And the specifics of each of the three salvation covenants in history are given in the text of when they are made. There is intent of covenant and there is the language of covenant. Covenant can even be one-sided. And covenants are instruments upon which a covenant is described.

You understand covenants etc, and yet you failed to understand what I said about them. Covenants between two equal parties are not covenants with God and I never said they were. And there are not three salvation covenants, but only one, with many parts as the one progresses through our time---but not God's time, only His timing. Why would there need to be three? The intent of a covenant made by God is for God's purposes, it sets forth a covenant relationship. "Covenants are instruments upon which a covenant is described." makes absolutely no sense. You are just trying to find a way to hang onto your assertions that are unbiblical.

Everything mankind has was copied from God who originated it, even darkness and evil.

Much of what mankind does is utterly opposed to God. Don't confuse what man has with what man does. According to scripture all good things come from God. James 1:16-18 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Evil is the absence of good, darkness is the absence of light.

Of the Abrahamic Covenant only one thing is required of Abraham and that is circumcision. Faith is not a requirement in this covenant.
Of the Mosaic Covenant obedience is required of the Children of Jacob/Israel. It is built upon the Abrahamic Covenant as circumcision has been carried over.
Of the New Covenant which was built upon the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants ,was sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ and implemented by Him. It is applied through the Advent of the Holy Spirit and circumcision has been carried over and obedience to God's Torah is required of the Children of Israel.
There is no record in the Hebrew Scripture of God making covenant with Gentiles (non-Hebrew.)
Salvation is of the LORD.
Salvation is of the Jews.
There is no such thing as salvation is of the Gentiles. Why is that?

All of that is distortion of scripture due to an intensely biased love for national Israel and a retention of that which was abolished, by Christ, hostility towards Gentiles. There never was an intention of hostility towards Gentiles by God, but merely a separation from them in religious practices, and the social elements of the Law concerning mingling, were protective.

There is not a record of God making a covenant with Gentiles because in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, but one new man. The New Covenant is in Christ. We are not required to obey the Mosaic Laws legal requirements, which we never could and Israel never did, in order to be placed in Christ unto salvation. Those Laws are no longer necessary and are not New Covenant stipulations.

"Salvation is of the Jews"does not mean salvation is for the Jews, it means that is where the Savior came from, and He is the reason there is an Israel----that was the supreme purpose of Israel even being created by God.

 

[Eleanor]

I LOATHE it when posters ask questions already answered or make requests for content already posted, and act as if that content does not already exist. I posted several posts, tying a host of scriptures together (from Genesis to Revelation) that meets that request. Go back and re-read the posts and do not ask me for something already provided. Stop wasting my time and stop cutting up scripture to make it say things it does not teach when taken as a whole. Prove your own position before asking others to prove a negative

And yet the following remains.

The land and law covenants were not salvific (in the OT).

My posts prove otherwise.

Please present the texts where the covenant of Ge 15:9-21 granted salvation, or where the covenant of Ex 19-24 granted salvation.

I have re-read the posts, and I find no texts granting salvation in the OT to those in the covenants of G 15:9-21 (land covenant), Ge 17 (to be Abraham's God), nor Ex 19-24 (Mosaic law).

Would you please do me the courtesy of presenting the texts where the covenant of Ge 15:9-21 and the covenant of Ex 19-24 granted salvation in the OT.

 

[Josheb]

And yet the following remains.



I have re-read the posts, and I find no texts granting salvation in the OT to those in the covenants of G 15:9-21 (land covenant), Ge 17 (to be Abraham's God), nor Ex 19-24 (Mosaic law).

According to Paul the gospel was preached to Abraham and the promises were made to Abraham and Jesus. If the gospel is a covenant of salvation then Abraham heard it and that is all the evidence needed to prove salvation was granted in the OT. As the author of Hebrews puts it,

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

They knew and believed the promises but did not receive them at that time. They are made perfect in us (the believers in the resurrected Messiah).

Would you please do me the courtesy of presenting the texts where the covenant of Ge 15:9-21 and the covenant of Ex 19-24 granted salvation in the OT.

Already done.

 

[Eleanor]

According to Paul the gospel was preached to Abraham and the promises were made to Abraham and Jesus.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

They knew and believed the promises but did not receive them at that time. They are made perfect in us (the believers in the resurrected Messiah).

Which is what I have maintained, salvation was by faith in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:3-4, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

 

[Josheb]

Which is what I have maintained, salvation was by faith in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:3-4, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

First of all, I am going to change the "by" to through. Salvation is through faith, not by it.

Then I am going to ask you to think about how Post 91 reads.

Several posts say things like, "I find no texts granting salvation in the OT to those in the covenants...." (Genesis texts are selectively picked to support that position) and then Post 91 is asserted. If Abraham obtained salvation through faith in the promises, then the OT texts do "grant" salvation. Conversely, if those in the NT and those of us in modernity find salvation through faith in the promise(s) and the promise are found in the OT, then the texts of Genesis (and elsewhere) grant salvation.

I lean toward the assumption that contradiction is not intended, and the inconsistency is due to simply not adequately clarifying what is mean.

I have shown how salvation was promised in the covenant(s) running through the entirety of scripture (in one place explicitly and in several places implicitly). Scripture tells us Abraham (and a few others) knew the gospel and believed the promises contained therein. Abraham knew faith was necessary (along with faithfulness. He knew blood was necessary. He knew it was God who pledged fealty to God on the condition of God's life, he knew a son's life was to be forfeited, and he knew God would provide the sacrifice and, if necessary, God would bring back his son from the grave. Abraham also longed for a city with a foundation not built by human hands, but by God, a city in which king and priest were united. He knew all of it prior to the giving of the Law and the existence of nation-state Israel. He knew he would be the father of many nations, not just one, and he knew it was one seed, not many, with whom he shared the covenant promises of God.

If the name "Abraham" was removed and any other name put in its place, like Josh, or Eleanor, we'd say that person was saved because the description above is the gospel. All Abraham lacked was a name, the name of God's son.

 

[Eleanor]

First of all, I am going to change the "by" to through. Salvation is through faith, not by it.

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith.

Then I am going to ask you to think about how Post 91 reads.

Several posts say things like, "I find no texts granting salvation in the OT to those in the covenants...."

To be more clear, being in the OT covenants of Ge 15:9-21, 17, Ex 19-24 does not mean salvation.

(Genesis texts are selectively picked to support that position) and then Post 91 is asserted. If Abraham obtained salvation through faith in the promises, then the OT texts do "grant" salvation. Conversely, if those in the NT and those of us in modernity find salvation through faith in the promise(s) and the promise are found in the OT, then the texts of Genesis (and elsewhere) grant salvation.
I lean toward the assumption that contradiction is not intended, and the inconsistency is due to simply not adequately clarifying what is mean.

I have shown how salvation was promised in the covenant(s) running through the entirety of scripture (in one place explicitly and in several places implicitly).

My assertion has already been explained to refer to the two Abrahamic and the Mosaic covenants of the OT (Ge 15:9-21, 17, Ex 19-24).
Salvation does not come with being in those covenants. It comes only with believing in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:2-3, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

Scripture tells us Abraham (and a few others) knew the gospel and believed the promises therein.

The gospel Abraham knew and believed was "All the nations will be blessed through you." (Ge 12:3, 18:18, 22:18), which is a promise of Christ.
Abraham believed in the promises (Ge 12:3, 5, 15:5-6 Ro 4:2-3 regarding Jesus Christ) and was made righteous/saved (Ge 15:6), by that faith (Ro 4:3).

Abraham knew faith was necessary (along with faithfulness. He knew blood was necessary.

There was cutting in the blood of an animal in the covenant of Ge 15:9-21, and cutting in the blood of the person (circumcision) in Ge 17.

He knew it was God who pledged fealty to God on the condition of God's life, he knew a son's life was to be forfeited, and he knew God would provide the sacrifice and, if necessary, God would bring back his son from the grave. Abraham also longed for a city with a foundation not built by human hands, but by God, a city in which king and priest were united. He knew all of it prior to the giving of the Law and the existence of nation-state Israel. He knew he would be the father of many nations, not just one, and he knew it was one seed, not many, with whom he shared the covenant promises of God.

If the name "Abraham" was removed and any other name put in its place, like Josh, or Eleanor, we'd say that person was saved because the description above is the gospel. All Abraham lacked was a name, the name of God's son.

Nevertheless, it remains that it is not what we say, but what the the word of God says (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3); i.e., that Abraham was saved (declared righteous, sin forgiven) by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Jesus Christ, the promised Seed in Gal 3:16) that is authoritative to faith.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith.

Then post that way. Remember: the forum is a text-based medium and all we have is the written word with which to communicate our views. "By" is not synonymous with "through." When I read a person say, "We're saved by faith," I wonder questions like 1) are the making a causal claim? 2) have they simply mistakenly switched "by" with "through" inadvertently and unintentionally, or 3) have they misread the Bible? Only one of those is easily correctable and likely maintain cogent and goodwill conversation. So.... again..... I'd like to take the opportunity and commend your adjustment and do so for the sake of the lurkers because you've twice now set a example to emulate.

To be more clear, being in the OT covenants of Ge 15:9-21, 17, Ex 19-24 does not mean salvation.

That is the fundamental point of disagreement. Beginning in Post 55, a survey of scripture from both Old and New was provided - with one verse explicitly stating a covenant can be salvific - proving the salvific nature of God's covenant(s). That evidence, that proof was acknowledged in Post 60. 2 Samuel is a covenant AND it is a covenant containing the promise of salvation. There can be no dispute here because that is what the text literally states.

Therefore, when I read continued dissent over the facts in evidence after those facts have been acknowledged, I find there are two sets of inconsistency and conflict. The first is with scripture, and the second is with your own posts.

My assertion has already been explained to refer to the two Abrahamic and the Mosaic covenants of the OT (Ge 15:9-21, 17, Ex 19-24). Salvation does not come with being in those covenants. It comes only with believing in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:2-3, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

False dichotomy. Not only is that a false dichotomy but, you must make sure you are not inadvertently arguing faith causes salvation.

Furthermore, I've already addressed this matter when I asked you to study the use of "Israel" in scripture because if not all Israel and the Israel that is Israel is ONLY the Israel that lived by faith..... then the Israel that is not Israel was never in the covenant in the first place. They thought they were but, according to the NT, they were not. Bloodline and geo-political nation-state status are worthless. This is why it is so important and necessary to acknowledge the monergistic nature of the covenant(s) and the fact they were inaugurated in Christ prior to creation's existence. Every time the OT mentions the word, "Israel," it should be read as the NT defines it, not as the faithless Jews defined it.

Matthew 3:4-10
Now John himself had a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

John 8:39-47
They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus *said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Romans 4:1-12 (excerpted for the sake of space)
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."......Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Romans 9:6-16 ESV (excerpted for the sake of space)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring............ So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

JB, Jesus, and Paul all made it very clear: they did not all have Abraham as their father, and they were not all Israel as God defines those of "God perseveres" (which is what the name "Israel" means). The apostles Matthew, Luke, and John also bore witness to that. It is a huge mistake to always read the word "Israel" to mean "geo-political nation-state." That is a secularized definition.

The gospel Abraham knew and believed was "All the nations will be blessed through you." (Ge 12:3, 18:18, 22:18), which is a promise of Christ.

You've just contradicted yourself, again. If the promise of Christ is salvific then there is a covenant of salvation in the Old Testament. There IS a covenant of salvation with Abraham in Gensis 15 and 17. The moment Christ is acknowledged, the moment the Christological aspect of the Abrahamic covenant is acknowledged, so to must the salvific nature of that covenant because THE chief reason came was to save us from sin, death, and wrath. The Abrahamic covenant is inherently soteriological.

Abraham believed in the promises (Ge 12:3, 5, 15:5-6 Ro 4:2-3 regarding Jesus Christ) and was made righteous/saved (Ge 15:6), by that faith (Ro 4:3). There was cutting in the blood of an animal in the covenant of Ge 15:9-21, and cutting in the blood of the person (circumcision) in Ge 17.

Yep. And, once again, your own posts do not reconcile. Post 89 does not reconcile with Post 93.

Nevertheless, it remains that it is not what we say, but what the the word of God says (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3); i.e., that Abraham was saved (declared righteous, sin forgiven) by faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Jesus Christ, the promised Seed in Gal 3:16) that is authoritative to faith.

.....and made complete in us (Heb. 11:40).

 

[Eleanor]

Then post that way. Remember: the forum is a text-based medium and all we have is the written word with which to communicate our views. "By" is not synonymous with "through." When I read a person say, "We're saved by faith," I wonder questions like 1) are the making a causal claim? 2) have they simply mistakenly switched "by" with "through" inadvertently and unintentionally, or 3) have they misread the Bible? Only one of those is easily correctable and likely maintain cogent and goodwill conversation. So.... again..... I'd like to take the opportunity and commend your adjustment and do so for the sake of the lurkers because you've twice now set a example to emulate.
That is the fundamental point of disagreement. Beginning in Post 55, a survey of scripture from both Old and New was provided - with one verse explicitly stating a covenant can be salvific

And not in accordance with my clarified request.

 

[Josheb]

And not in accordance with my clarified request.

How then can it be said there was no salvation in the OT covenant AND Abraham was saved through faith in the promise?

 

[Eleanor]

How then can it be said there was no salvation in the OT covenant AND Abraham was saved through faith in the promise?

The covenant itself (Ge 15:9-21) did not give salvation, faith in the promise of seed (Ge 15:5-6, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16) justified (saved) him (Ro 4:2-3).

 

[Josheb]

The covenant itself (Ge 15:9-21) did not give salvation

First, that is (another) move of the goal posts. The original comment (Post 50) was...

"Where do we find salvation promised in the covenants? Salvation since Abraham is only by belief in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16)."​

False dichotomy.

Salvation found in the covenant is not the same as salvation given by a covenant. Remember: words matter.

Second, that is a false dichotomy. Jesus is not solely the means of salvation. He is the life and the way, and it is only in his name that salvation is found. He is the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice foreknown before th foundation of the world..... upon which the covenant with Abraham was made AND to who it was made.

Matthew 26:27-28
And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Third, it's also a red herring because no one has said the covenant itself saves.

, faith in the promise of seed (Ge 15:5-6, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16) justified (saved) him (Ro 4:2-3).

Which Abraham possessed. He hadn't yet seen Jesus, but he believed, was deemed righteous and justified, and was saved. His salvation was made complete in us.


And since this last exchange is a repeat of content already posted that adds nothing new to the discussion, I'll let you have the last word and move on.

 

[Eleanor]

First, that is (another) move of the goal posts. The original comment (Post 50) was...

"Where do we find salvation promised in the covenants? Salvation since Abraham is only by belief in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16)."​

False dichotomy.

Salvation found in the covenant is not the same as salvation given by a covenant. Remember: words matter.

Clarified in post #59,
re-presented in post #89,
agreed in post #91.

I have nothing more to add.

 

[Hobie]

Thank you for that.
I understand covenants and contracts, wills, POA's, treaties, etc.
Everything mankind has was copied from God who originated it, even darkness and evil.
Everything is of God. Human laws against murder, theft, and every law on human books has been copied from God.
But the covenants between God and a separated people such as Abram the Hebrew and his seed are not between two equal parties. And the specifics of each of the three salvation covenants in history are given in the text of when they are made. There is intent of covenant and there is the language of covenant. Covenant can even be one-sided. And covenants are instruments upon which a covenant is described.

Of the Abrahamic Covenant only one thing is required of Abraham and that is circumcision. Faith is not a requirement in this covenant.
Of the Mosaic Covenant obedience is required of the Children of Jacob/Israel. It is built upon the Abrahamic Covenant as circumcision has been carried over.
Of the New Covenant which was built upon the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants ,was sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ and implemented by Him. It is applied through the Advent of the Holy Spirit and circumcision has been carried over and obedience to God's Torah is required of the Children of Israel.
There is no record in the Hebrew Scripture of God making covenant with Gentiles (non-Hebrew.)
Salvation is of the LORD.
Salvation is of the Jews.
There is no such thing as salvation is of the Gentiles. Why is that?

I think you are a bit off on your assessment to say the least.
Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.