So if we understand all Prophecies and Scripture, Doctrine.., what more do we need?

[Josheb]

My mistake. . .2 Sa 5:7-16 was a covenant.

Sorry about that.

eh.... no blood, no foul. Back to the game .

The point is there is a God-made covenant involving salvation and that mess you and @jeremiah1five are trading posts over should be understood accordingly. Our brother thinks it's all about Jewish converts to Christ and only them (because God has no covenant with Gentiles). I recommend examining the profile and post history, so that you don't waste time beyond your tolerances. We Gentiles are, after all, inordinately prideful.

More op-relevantly, however, the texts I blew through covering the Christological covenant are op-relevant because, according to the New Testament, much of what some people claim to be waiting to happen has already happened. The promised thrown has happened. It's not a physical chair made of wood or gold or some other physical material. It is not an earthly monarchy. According to Luke and Peter, it is the resurrection. I, for one, have never found agreement with @Hobie and scripture regarding what scripture plainly, explicitly states, so I don't expect you will, either. The irony, just in case I have to explain it, is that "if we understand all prophecies......" is a baseless question if prophecies are not correctly understood. It's a red herring. The only way anyone here can answer the question asked is if and only if they correctly understand. It is not something that should be presupposed in an eschatology board because of the profound diversity existing in Christian eschatology and the abject failure of modern futurist to have even one prediction come true in the nearly 200 years they've been making up stuff. So not only is the op baseless and red herring..... it is also bait. It comes with a pre-existing bias that's so entrenched there will be no actual discussion, none with any degree of parity, or cogency, or authenticity. The only options are either like-minded posters stroking each other with non sequiturs or rancor. Lest I be read to be culpable of my own criticism, the reason I belabor all this is because you just did something amazingly admirable, commendable, and exemplary.

My mistake. . .2 Sa 5:7-16 was a covenant.

Sorry about that.

I hope all the participants and lurkers take note. Well done, @Eleanor. You read the posts, (presumably) read them for their merits, did not make things personal or adversarial, and in the end acknowledged the facts in evidence.

Do more of that!


Very cool.

What is fullness of belief that is needed by a true Christian..

Well, for one I might say acknowledging the facts of Acts 2:30-31 because that has profound effect on the question asked. Furthermore, wherever we understand all prophecies, scripture, doctrine, etc. the scriptures answer that question regarding what we need but, curiously that answer is completely absent from the op.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is the answer.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Faith, hope, and love are needed, and the greatest of these is love.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Certainly, any Law-centric modern futurist should understand this. Why then is it absent from the op? Because modern futurism biases the reading of scripture. The NT writers believed they were living in the ends of the ages, the last days, and all the messianic prophecies had been fulfilled in Jesus bar Joseph from Nazareth. There would be no other. He was resurrected, fulfilling the promises God had made to Abraham and David (and everyone in between). What else was needed?

Love.

1 John 3:10-18
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.


It is eschatological.

 

[Eleanor]

eh.... no blood, no foul. Back to the game .

The point is there is a God-made covenant involving salvation

I am referring to the "national" covenants of Abraham and Moses, not to the individual covenant of David nor to the New Covenant, wherein salvation is the requirement for entrance into the New Covenant, not the result of it, which salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9).
There is no salvation in those national covenants to Abraham and Moses.
Salvation in the OT was only by belief in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:1-5, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

And while all covenants are promises, not all promises are covenants.
They are not always interchangeable.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Those are evidence of being in the covenant.
Where do we find salvation by being in those two covenants?

The New Covenant is entered only by faith in Jesus Christ, which faith is salvation.
The New Covenant does not grant salvation, for it is entered only by those of faith in the blood (Ro 3:25) who are already saved.

Prophecy is given in riddles, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation.

The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants were not covenants of salvation, there were covenants of land and of law, neither of which saved, and both of which have been fulfilled--the land covenant fulfilled in its possession under Joshua (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and its occupation under Solomon (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25), and the Mosaic law covenant fulfilled in Christ, our righteousness, rendering it obsolete (Heb 8:13).


In Jn 5:46 above, Jesus is referring to what Moses said (wrote) in Dt 18:17-19, not what Moses did or who Moses was.

Love of Christ is tied to being in, and submission to, Christ, who has fulfilled the law for us and now resides in us, who obey his Spirit from our hearts.

I've already told you twice.

 

[jeremiah1five]

eh.... no blood, no foul. Back to the game .

The point is there is a God-made covenant involving salvation and that mess you and @jeremiah1five are trading posts over should be understood accordingly. Our brother thinks it's all about Jewish converts to Christ and only them (because God has no covenant with Gentiles). I recommend examining the profile and post history, so that you don't waste time beyond your tolerances. We Gentiles are, after all, inordinately prideful.

More op-relevantly, however, the texts I blew through covering the Christological covenant are op-relevant because, according to the New Testament, much of what some people claim to be waiting to happen has already happened. The promised thrown has happened. It's not a physical chair made of wood or gold or some other physical material. It is not an earthly monarchy. According to Luke and Peter, it is the resurrection. I, for one, have never found agreement with @Hobie and scripture regarding what scripture plainly, explicitly states, so I don't expect you will, either. The irony, just in case I have to explain it, is that "if we understand all prophecies......" is a baseless question if prophecies are not correctly understood. It's a red herring. The only way anyone here can answer the question asked is if and only if they correctly understand. It is not something that should be presupposed in an eschatology board because of the profound diversity existing in Christian eschatology and the abject failure of modern futurist to have even one prediction come true in the nearly 200 years they've been making up stuff. So not only is the op baseless and red herring..... it is also bait. It comes with a pre-existing bias that's so entrenched there will be no actual discussion, none with any degree of parity, or cogency, or authenticity. The only options are either like-minded posters stroking each other with non sequiturs or rancor. Lest I be read to be culpable of my own criticism, the reason I belabor all this is because you just did something amazingly admirable, commendable, and exemplary.

I hope all the participants and lurkers take note. Well done, @Eleanor. You read the posts, (presumably) read them for their merits, did not make things personal or adversarial, and in the end acknowledged the facts in evidence.

Do more of that!


Very cool.

Well, for one I might say acknowledging the facts of Acts 2:30-31 because that has profound effect on the question asked. Furthermore, wherever we understand all prophecies, scripture, doctrine, etc. the scriptures answer that question regarding what we need but, curiously that answer is completely absent from the op.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Love is the answer.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Faith, hope, and love are needed, and the greatest of these is love.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

Certainly, any Law-centric modern futurist should understand this. Why then is it absent from the op? Because modern futurism biases the reading of scripture. The NT writers believed they were living in the ends of the ages, the last days, and all the messianic prophecies had been fulfilled in Jesus bar Joseph from Nazareth. There would be no other. He was resurrected, fulfilling the promises God had made to Abraham and David (and everyone in between). What else was needed?

Love.

1 John 3:10-18
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.


It is eschatological.

Show me in the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets God made covenant with Gentiles, and I will include them in covenant with God.

 

[Eleanor]

I've already told you twice.

You have presented no text stating salvation in the OT Abrahamic covenants, nor in the OT Mosaic covenant temporarily added to it (Gal 3:19).

 

[makesends]

We find the following in Gods Word..
2 Corinthians 9:6
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully, shall reap also bountifully.

This seems clear that God asks for us more than just to give miserly, since it follows in the next verse with '7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.'

And we see..
1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

If we lack love (charity) we are nothing..

And in another place we find Christ telling the religious leaders and learned men...
Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

So we can be right about doctrine or prophecy and know the Bible word for word, from front to back, and yet........

What is fullness of belief that is needed by a true Christian..

I'm not following. "What is needed" for what? or to what end? Not sure what you are asking...

 

[jeremiah1five]

You have presented no text stating salvation in the OT Abrahamic covenants, nor in the OT Mosaic covenant temporarily added to it (Gal 3:19).

It's obvious you don't understand the nature and purpose of the Hebrew covenants.
They are instruments by which Yahweh saves His covenant people.

I think you need to strengthen your understanding of the Hebrew covenants, the Hebrew prophets and their prophecies and spend more time understanding the words of Moses before you can even hope to understand the words of Christ.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Jn 5:45–47.

I'm not your teacher. You want an answer further beyond what I've already said search the [Hebrew] Scriptures.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jn 5:38–39.

 

[Mr GLee]

The original command of God concerning love was to the twelve tribes of the House of Israel.
This command is found in Leviticus 19:16-18.

Yes twelve tribes as gates they in parables are used to represent all of the born again saints on the old testament side (twelve = the final authority of God or the fulness of whatever is in view.

Twelve foundation walls to represent the word apostles (sent out of the gates (as messengers) they make up all of the new testament saints.

Together twelve times twelve the golden measure of faith (a unknown) 144,000 to represent the chaste virgin bride named after the virginity like that timothy a brother in the lord having no other gods called strange woman (not the true bride) Timothy remains faithful to his one husband , Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

A vision of the chaste virgin bride the Christian church. of the bride previously called her Israel to a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations. Christian. . . literally meaning residences of the city of Christ prepared for his bride named after the founder and husband Christ.
Make sure we are in the family of faith Christ power than can raise us to new life (as it is written) As those that call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See etc therefore usurping the invisible head.our Holy Father not seen


Revelation 14:3-5King James Version3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 21 9-18 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure (literal) of a man, that is, of the angel. And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

Gold the good measure of faith the unknown. The only rudiment of this world during creation that God gave his good seal of his approval.

God desires we walk by faith after the eternal golden things not by sight after the temporal dying

 

[Mr GLee]

It's obvious you don't understand the nature and purpose of the Hebrew covenants.
They are instruments by which Yahweh saves His covenant people.

Yes the living abiding words as it is written (sola scriptura) make up the eternal covenants of God a written etched in stone law . He warns us those who say we need a man to teach us as if we would neglect to believe his promise in John 14 yoked with him to teach us , guide, comfort and bringing to our memory the previous thing he has taught us

Remember it is the goal of the father of lies to deceive mankind to believe God is a Jewish dying man as King of kings and Lord of lords .

The antichrist called the legion(many) . The one spirit of many lies working in many antichrists (Human form)

Satan has no form of his own. The spirit of lies working in false apostles bringing false prophecy as oral traditions of dying mankind

There is a division between antichrist (singular) and anchrists (plural ). Satan would have it all one in the same as a lying wonder when will the man of sin be revealed ??????. He has been revealed

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Josheb]

I am referring to the "national" covenants of Abraham and Moses...

No such thing.

First, Do a word search of the word "Israel." If you do so you will find there are very few mentions of Israel as a geo-political nation-state. This is all the more so once the New Testament definition of "Israel" is applied to every verse in the Bible where "Israel" is mentioned. Note there are only about two dozen (28) mentions of Israel" in the gospels and few of them have anything to do with the nation-state and as a whole they are about the covenant-breaking reality existing at that time. Note how in the New Testament the references to nation-state Israel are usually derogatory. Note how the mention of "Israel" in Revelation is very rare - there are only three (!) mentions and none of them are about the geo-political nation-state. There was no nation of Israel when God initiated His covenant with Abraham and among those promises was the promise Abe would be the father of many nations, not just one. The geo-political nation-state of Israel did not come into existence for four or more centuries after the God-made covenant with Abraham and Jesus. What we call the "Mosaic covenant" is simply God keeping the promises He'd first made to Abraham (and Isaac and Jacob) and God plainly states that fact.

Do the word search and verify what I just posted for yourself.




Second, take note of all the promised consequences of God's covenants because most folks emphasize the good parts and neglect the bad parts. The promise of many nations is just as everlasting as the promise of destruction. Promises of restoration are specified, fixed, and finite. Universalism, apokatastasis, and reincarnation are heresies.

Deuteronomy 28:20-63 NAS (excerpted for the sake of space)
The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it. The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron. "The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. The LORD shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away....... Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and yearn for them continually; but there will be nothing you can do. A people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually. You shall be driven mad by the sight of what you see.... So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. They shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever. Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things; therefore, you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you. The LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young. Moreover, it shall eat the offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish.... If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God, then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses. "He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you. Also, every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed. Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not obey the LORD your God. It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it.

Deuteronomy 28:63 BSB
Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and multiply, so also it will please Him to annihilate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Deuteronomy 28:63 LSV
And it has been, as YHWH has rejoiced over you to do you good and to multiply you, so YHWH rejoices over you to destroy you and to lay you waste; and you have been pulled away from off the ground to where you are going in to possess it...

Deuteronomy 28:63 YLT
And it hath been, as Jehovah hath rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so doth Jehovah rejoice over you to destroy you, and to lay you waste; and ye have been pulled away from off the ground whither thou art going in to possess it.

The Hebrew word "uləhasmiḏ" means "to bring to nothing; the cessation of existence," to be exterminated (H8045). The Hebrew word "lehaabid" means to perish (H6).



God promised to destroy them, to make them perish, to make them to cease to exist.


The promises of God are everlasting.


ALL of them, not just the ones we like.


So do the word search and accept both the promises of life AND those of death and destruction.

 

[Josheb]

Show me in the Law, Psalms, and the Prophets God made covenant with Gentiles, and I will include them in covenant with God.

No.

This op is about what more is needed if we understand all prophecies, scripture, and doctrine. I will not be baited into digression, and you will either stick to the subject specified in this op or be ignored.

 

[Eleanor]

It's obvious you don't understand the nature and purpose of the Hebrew covenants.
They are instruments by which Yahweh saves His covenant people.

They are not.
Salvation (righteousness/justification) was only by faith in the Promise (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:2-4, Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16).

The OT covenants to Abraham and Moses were instruments by which God accomplished his revelation to mankind, the formation of a people and the deliverance of a Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, in whom salvation is by faith, not by law keeping (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Eleanor]

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Jn 5:45–47.
I'm not your teacher. You want an answer further beyond what I've already said search the [Hebrew] Scriptures.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jn 5:38–39.

Previously addressed in post #59.

 

[Eleanor]

No such thing.

First, Do a word search of the word "Israel." If you do so you will find there are very few mentions of Israel as a geo-political nation-state.

How many times does God have to say it before it is true?

 

[Josheb]

How many times does God have to say it before it is true?

Once. But that's a red herring. The question is not whether or not what God says is true, but whether or not what you say is true. And I am guessing the recommended word search was not done before Post 74 was posted because when God does, on occasion, speak of the nation of Israel He does so either in reference to those of the nation that lives by faith, or a nation-state destined for destruction because of its disobedience and chronic covenant-breaking.

Look it up.

 

[Arial]

It's obvious you don't understand the nature and purpose of the Hebrew covenants.
They are instruments by which Yahweh saves His covenant people.

Covenants are not instruments by which God saves His people, and they are not instruments.. Covenant is a relationship. It is a relationship that God brings His people into in salvation---in Christ.

I think you need to strengthen your understanding of the Hebrew covenants,

It is you who needs to do that by first learning what a covenant is.

 

[Eleanor]

Once. But that's a red herring. The question is not whether or not what God says is true, but whether or not what you say is true. And I am guessing the recommended word search was not done before Post 74 was posted because when God does, on occasion, speak of the nation of Israel He does so either in reference to those of the nation that lives by faith, or a nation-state destined for destruction because of its disobedience and chronic covenant-breaking.

Look it up.

Which makes it a nation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No.

This op is about what more is needed if we understand all prophecies, scripture, and doctrine. I will not be baited into digression, and you will either stick to the subject specified in this op or be ignored.

That's because there is NONE.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Covenants are not instruments by which God saves His people, and they are not instruments.. Covenant is a relationship. It is a relationship that God brings His people into in salvation---in Christ.

It is you who needs to do that by first learning what a covenant is.

Covenant. Contract. Instruments.

 

[Josheb]

Which makes it a nation.

Not a nation with its own covenant. Israel's existence as a nation was never in dispute. It's the premise they have their own covenant that is disputed. The "national" covenant is Abraham's covenant, a covenant made long before any geo-political nation-state called "Israel" ever existed. The nation doesn't have separate covenant.

This all started because you were trading posts with a member who believes everything in the Bible is for Israel, and nation-state Israel. Gentiles don't have a covenant with God; only Jews. In Post 50 the question was asked, "Where do we find salvation promised in the covenant?" and that question has now been answered and answered in a manner showing the covenant was not with nation-state Israel. At this point in the discussion.... there's been no separate salvific covenant established with nation-state Israel. You'll notice Post 51 does not cite such a covenant. That's not obvious to some because they think the Mosaic covenant is a strictly Israel covenant but 1) the nation did not exist at Sinai, and 2) the Law stipulated it applies to everyone! not just the nation of Israel.

Therefore, when you, in Post 62, say, "I am referring to the "national" covenants of Abraham and Moses, not to the individual covenant of David nor to the New Covenant....." something not actually stated in scripture is being invented. The nation of Abraham is a nation of many nations, a holy nation made of people chosen by God to be royal priests, the temple of God built on the foundation of Christ.

This is an easily decided matter. All you have to do is cite or quote an actual verse in the Bible that actually states (not one eisegetically made to say something it does not state) there is a separate nation-state covenant with Israel AND one that does not contradict with the pile of scriptures I have already posted. Absent any such statement in the Bible, the covenant Israel shares with its patriarchs is Abe's covenant, not one of their own as a geo-political nation-state.