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Six Problems Inherent in Dispensationalism, Part 2: The Resulting Hypocrisy

Then you will remain ignorant.
Ad hominem noted......


...and once again the o is proved correct. You cannot claim to practice verses like Eph. 4:29, Phil. 2:3 and most of Proverbs 15 and then call people ignorant. It is hypocritical! Neither can you so quicky abandon the topic of this discussion: the claim to read scripture literally and make this about someone else's purported ignorance and maintain your own integrity. IT is hypocritical and absurd.

You're supposed to be proving Dispensational Premillennialism does NOT inherently lead to hypocrisy and isn't therefore absurd.


The facts remain, the apostasia of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 cannot me THE* physical spatial departure from the earth when read literally and my original question still remains unanswered. The proof of this fact was provided. Leading Dispensational Premillennialists were quoted stating that is a distinctive principle of Dispensational Premillennialism. Evidence from proponents, not critics, was provided. All you've been asked to do is acknowledge the facts in evidence.



Before we proceed any further with the rest of Post #4,
will you now plainly acknowledge that Dispensational Premillennialism does,
in fact,
teach scripture, especially prophecy, is to be read literally
as one of its core tenets?










* I have amended my prior post to accurately reflect your non-literal reading of the verse.
.
 
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Ad hominem noted......


...and once again the o is proved correct. You cannot claim to practice verses like Eph. 4:29, Phil. 2:3 and most of Proverbs 15 and then call people ignorant. It is hypocritical! Neither can you so quicky abandon the topic of this discussion: the claim to read scripture literally and make this about someone else's purported ignorance and maintain your own integrity. IT is hypocritical and absurd.

You're supposed to be proving Dispensational Premillennialism does NOT inherently lead to hypocrisy and isn't therefore absurd.
I have....2 Thes 2 is something you can't address. You just can't kick those verses aside. Those verse point to a pre-trib rapture.
The pre-trib rapture KILLS your entire eschatological view. I believe it's time for you to start over. Look up!
The facts remain, the apostasia of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 cannot me THE* physical spatial departure from the earth when read literally and my original question still remains unanswered. The proof of this fact was provided. Leading Dispensational Premillennialists were quoted stating that is a distinctive principle of Dispensational Premillennialism. Evidence from proponents, not critics, was provided. All you've been asked to do is acknowledge the facts in evidence.



Before we proceed any further with the rest of Post #4,
will you now plainly acknowledge that Dispensational Premillennialism does,
in fact,
teach scripture, especially prophecy, is to be read literally
as one of its core tenets?
Most all of prophecy is literal. Or, should I say is presented as literal. There are times when "images" are presented such as a flood coming from the dragons mouth. Keep in mind what is mentioned will occur in a literal fashion or in a way in which we see the prophecy fulfilled in modern terms.
* I have amended my prior post to accurately reflect your non-literal reading of the verse.
.
 
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.

Notice I did not use the word "near." The Greek is "engys" which literally means "at hand" and the phrase "at hand" literally means "close in time, about to happen." So here we have an inspired writer of God's revelation explicitly stating what he is about to describe happening close in time, about to happen. That does not fit with Dispensational Premillennialism so the meaning of engys is changed. And just as you have done with the apostasia of 2 Thes. 2:3, there isn't a single example in the entire New Testament where engys is used to mean some period of time thousands of years later. Therefore, not only does the DPist change the meaning of the word engys in Revelation 1:3, but the meaning they give it nowhere else found in the entire New Testament.
It's pretty clear to me you don't understand the meaning....the tribulation hasn't occurred yet.

For example you posted...
Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
The world has not seen such tribulation as described above. Do you know what that means? It hasn't happened yet.
 
Where is the contradiction?

For both of you....
2 Thes 2 starts out with.....1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,.....which is a reference to the rapture.....the departure when we are gathered together....then the antichrist will be exposed.
You make 2 Thess say we leave before Christ returns.
1 Thess says we meet him in the air as he returns along with the resurrected saints, immediately, after the resurrected bodies of the saints meet him in the air. The implication is that we return with him, as there is nothing that says he comes part way down, we go part way up and hang there? for a thousand and seven years, while he comes the rest of the way down. Or that he returns three times.
 
You make 2 Thess say we leave before Christ returns.
1 Thess says we meet him in the air as he returns along with the resurrected saints, immediately, after the resurrected bodies of the saints meet him in the air. The implication is that we return with him, as there is nothing that says he comes part way down, we go part way up and hang there? for a thousand and seven years, while he comes the rest of the way down. Or that he returns three times.
2 Thes 2 mentions our being gathered together with Him. We depart prior to the anti-christ being revealed.

John 14:2 In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.......We are gathered together at the gathering when we depart and go to the "rooms (mansion)".
After 7 years we then return with Jesus....after the marriage supper... Would you like to discuss Jesus not leaving on a white horse again?
 
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Where's the contradiction?
You make 2 Thess say we leave before Christ returns.
2 Thes 2 mentions our being gathered together with Him. We depart prior to the anti-christ being revealed.
@Arial, please do not let him take the discussion far afield or hijack this op. This thread is NOT about the particular doctrines of Dispensational Premillennialism. That op can be found HERE. @CrowCross has chosen to stake his dispute on the protest Dispensational Premillennialism does not teach scripture should be read literally (see Post #4). It has been proven DPism does teach literalism and it has been proven CrowCross does not read all of scripture literally. This is self-evident prima facie hypocrisy.

Which is what the op is about.

Please do not let him move the goalposts, change the subject, or hijack the op to make it about doctrine or comparative theology (see rule 3 of the tou). The same thing happened HERE, HERE, and HERE, and it is common practice for Dispensationalists to never resolve anything but to constantly move from one topic to another, from one verse to another, without ever resolving any of it. Crow's presence in this op occurs because an attempt was made to hijack another thread, and he was invited to bring he digression here rather than disrupt that thread. This is the Dispensationalists' method of operation, and it will happen here unless a conscious effort is made to stick to the specified topic of this op: the hypocrisy that results from teaching scripture should be read literally but not doing so with any degree of consistency. We've already witnessed how, when asked to acknowledge facts in evidence the response was ad hominem, obfuscation, and content another poster's purported ignorance. If it is insinuated you are ignorant, that risks sanctions. So, the next best thing is attempted = change the subject, corrupt the discussion with irrelevancies and never acknowledge and evidence or resolve any disparity (disparity between scripture and posts, not disparities between two posters).
Dispensationalism is overtly inconsistent in practice. To be hypocritical is to say one thing and do the opposite, or to assert a standard and then not practice it. This happens in multiple ways with Dispensational Premillennialism.

For example, one of the core tenets of Dispensationalism is the belief scripture should be read literally.........................................
This is not correct.

Yes, scripture should be taken literally....there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ in the prophetic future....but sometimes scripture should be taken as figurative or allegorically................
Yes, it is correct.

Post #4 argues against literalism while claiming literalism but that's a red herring because the salient point is that DPism teaches literalism, NOT his personal views on exegesis. In other words, from the very beginning of his participation in the thread the effort was made to obfuscate and digress. The lack of accountability is a huge problem inherent in Dispensational Premillennialism. Please do not let that happen here. We either let the dross sit as a witness to the veracity of the op, or we all collaborate to resolve the problem - the problem cited in this op; the problem of not actually practicing literalism, the problem of not living as if predictions are true, and the problem of hypocrisy resulted from these internal inconsistencies.
 
I have....2 Thes 2 is something you can't address. You just can't kick those verses aside. Those verse point to a pre-trib rapture.
The pre-trib rapture KILLS your entire eschatological view. I believe it's time for you to start over. Look up!

Most all of prophecy is literal. Or, should I say is presented as literal. There are times when "images" are presented such as a flood coming from the dragons mouth. Keep in mind what is mentioned will occur in a literal fashion or in a way in which we see the prophecy fulfilled in modern terms.
That is still not an answer to the question asked. The question is whether or not Dispensationalism teaches scripture should be read literally, not whether or not you think scripture should be read literally, not whether or not there exists symbolism in prophecy that shouldn't be read literally. You may well have a different viewpoint than all those men I quoted but that is not the question. The question is...


Will you now acknowledge Dispensationalism teaches the literal reading of scripture as a core tenet, as evidenced in Post #7?
 
@Arial, please do not let him take the discussion far afield or hijack this op. This thread is NOT about the particular doctrines of Dispensational Premillennialism. That op can be found HERE. @CrowCross has chosen to stake his dispute on the protest Dispensational Premillennialism does not teach scripture should be read literally (see Post #4). It has been proven DPism does teach literalism and it has been proven CrowCross does not read all of scripture literally. This is self-evident prima facie hypocrisy.
What I did was produce a verse that surrounded a subject that gives your anti-dispensational theology fits.


Basically you're in "CHECK"....You need to show how THE departure in a physical sense is not a good word to be used in 2 thes 2.

I understand you not wanting to change your eschatological viewpoint....
 
That is still not an answer to the question asked. The question is whether or not Dispensationalism teaches scripture should be read literally,
Yes, scripture should be read literally. Jesus really rose from the dead. God really made man from the dirt and not a process involving evolution. There really will be a pre-trib rapture. There literally will be a 1000 year reign of Christ after the 7 year tribulation.
Now, listen up....as I said to you before sometimes the prophetic message isn't presented as literal....stars will not fall from heaven to earth....Do I need to present that view to you again for a 3rd time?
not whether or not you think scripture should be read literally, not whether or not there exists symbolism in prophecy that shouldn't be read literally. You may well have a different viewpoint than all those men I quoted but that is not the question. The question is...


Will you now acknowledge Dispensationalism teaches the literal reading of scripture as a core tenet, as evidenced in Post #7?
A literal reading of the bible should be a core tenet of scripture for anyone. Even Dispensationalist.

Now I ask you....can apostasy in 2 Thes 2 be rendered as "departure"? Secondly can that departure be physical rather than spiritual?
 
Yes, scripture should be read literally. Jesus really rose from the dead. God really made man from the dirt and not a process involving evolution. There really will be a pre-trib rapture. There literally will be a 1000 year reign of Christ after the 7 year tribulation.
Now, listen up....as I said to you before sometimes the prophetic message isn't presented as literal....stars will not fall from heaven to earth....Do I need to present that view to you again for a 3rd time?

A literal reading of the bible should be a core tenet of scripture for anyone. Even Dispensationalist.

Now I ask you....can apostasy in 2 Thes 2 be rendered as "departure"? Secondly can that departure be physical rather than spiritual?
Still not answering the question.


Does Dispensational Premillennialism teach the literal reading of scripture as a core tenet? Yes or no. One word post, please.
 
Still not answering the question.


Does Dispensational Premillennialism teach the literal reading of scripture as a core tenet? Yes or no. One word post, please.
I don't know. I did express my opinion. Can you not address that instead of beating around the bush?

I started a new thread here.
 
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I don't know.
You do know. I just provided all the proof ANYONE could possibly want or need in Post #7. All I am asking of you is to acknowledge the facts in evidence.

This is important because when the response is, "I don't know," after seeing the evidence that proves the op correct. Historic Premillennialism, Amillennialism, Postmillennialism, and Idealism do not have this problem. They may have other problems, but not this one. In addition to the hypocrisy inherent in teaching literalism but not practicing it consistently, and an unwillingness to face and acknowledge facts when presented, you were invited to discuss any of my ops and you came here willingly but you've refused to discuss the fact DPism teaches literalism as a core tenet. That too is hypocrisy.
I did express my opinion.
Your opinion was not requested., especially not at the expense of a simple acknowledgment of the facts in evidence.
Can you not address that instead of beating around the bush?
Yep, but you'll have to stop posting snotty comments like that one.
I started a new thread here.
Be right there but if I ask a question then I expect a timely answer to the question asked. I do not expect to have to ask the same question multiple times to get an answer. Neither do I expect you to be the only one who gets to ask questions while you never provide any parity.
 
Dispensationalism is overtly inconsistent in practice. To be hypocritical is to say one thing and do the opposite, or to assert a standard and then not practice it. This happens in multiple ways with Dispensational Premillennialism

For example, one of the core tenets of Dispensationalism is the belief scripture should be read literally. Sometimes this is qualified to say prophecy, not all scripture, is to be read literally. The problems arising from this position are that the rules of correct biblical exegesis have been long-held and well-established by nearly everyone in Christendom no matter their respective theology or eschatology or other doctrinal views. The literal reading of scripture is a basic tenet of exegesis but that rule does not apply to ALL scripture, especially not prophecy since prophecy is often one of the most figurative and/or allegorical literary genres. As a consequence, Dispensationalism's requirement for literal reading ignores centuries of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice, but another problem arises because Dispensationalists do not actually read all prophecy literally, and they openly criticize others when they practice literal reading! Not only is literalism not practiced consistently despite the self-asserted emphasis on literalism, and not only is there inherently contradictory criticism of those who do practice literalism where Dispensationalists do not, but there is also enormous inconsistency between the imminent prognostications constantly being asserted and the fact rarely do any Dispensationalists act is if their own claims are actually true! They say the world is coming to an end any day now but they do not actually act as if that is true.
Scripture should be read literally, however there is a hermeneutic they speak to that has rules. It is nice that you don't mention this at all so you can bash dispys. For instance, I beleive that every prophecy is literal, and that the actual event/thing being prophesied about MUST remain UNCHANGED through one's interpretation. There is enough given prophecy, that has given fulfillment, or fulfillment that can be seen in history, that shows that this is the case. It is one reason so many literal scholars absolutely hate the book of Daniel, and the early date given for it being written. It is like a guidebook to how predictive prophecy is given and fulfilled. And God, for whatever reason, keeps giving out evidence that points to the early date as being when it was written. Consider Daniel's statue. The times of the Gentile. When you take this with the related prophecy of the four beasts, you have a VERY accurate rendition of history. One doesn't have to reinterpret everything. The literal events are just couched in symbols. Consider the chest and arms of the statue, to the bear beast with it's uneven nature. The Medes and Persians. Two peoples, two arms/sides of the statue. Uneven in strength (the bear is unbalanced), the Medes (I believe, I could have this backwards) were always more powerful than the Persians. Consider the leopard (fast) with the four wings (now supercharged really fast), and four heads. Alexander conquered VERY VERY quickly, and when he died, his kingdom was divided amongst four of his generals. God was VERY literal in the prophecies, just couched in imagery.

Go back to Joseph and the cup bearer/baker of Pharaoh. Their prophetic dreams were VERY literal even in the imagery. Same with Pharaoh's dream about the famine. It was told twice, and even with different imagery each time, what was said by the imagery was exactly the same both times.

You have to consider the rules of the literal hermeneutic as they give it. It does not say that there is nothing that might be figurative, or symbolic in language. However, it does speak to how it should be handled.. I read some information on covenant amillennialism and the sheer amount of presupposition and forcing of beliefs onto scripture was... frankly... incredible. I didn't even know how bad it was. Right down to ignoring things Jesus Himself said, or saying, that isn't what He meant.
In regard to the emphasis on literalism, the Dispensational Hermeneutic (pdf file) states a word should be “given the same meaning it would have in normal usage.” In Dispensationalism this is often applied to OT prophecy but not NT prophecy. Neither is it applied to NT renderings of the OT. For example, Dispensationalists take literally the promise of a Davidic throne found in 2 Samuel 7 but they do not take literally Peter’s statements in Acts 2 about that promise. Another example of this inconsistency is when they use the word “near” to mean near but do not read scripture's use of "near" to mean near. They say, “The building of the temple is near,” but they do not give God’s use of the word “near,” in Revelation the same meaning it would have in normal usage. The word “near,” literally mean near in time or space.
You should be honest in your portrayal. Not being such is deceitful. Ryrie had this to say "The literalist(so called) is not one who denies that figurative language, that symbols, are used in prophecy, nor does he deny that great spiritual truths are set forth therein; his position is, simply, that the prophecies are to be normally interpreted (i.e., according to received laws of language) as any other utterances are interpreted—that which is manifestly figurative being so regarded."

In the same paper you gave, it says that the literal hermeneutic of the dispensationalist is basically the grammical-historical method used consistently. "Thus, dispensationalists, by and large, have used the term literal to refer to their system of interpretation (the consistent use of the grammatical-historical system), and once inside that system, literal refers to whether or not a specific word or phrase is used in its context in a figurative or literal sense. This helps us understand why Radmacher describes the system of literal interpretation (Johnson's no.2) as “both plain-literal and figurative-literal”"
Then when a non-Dispensationalist Christian does read verses or passages literally, they expose themselves to criticism by Dispensationalists and that criticism in often rude, disrespectful and sometime profane. I have even had my salvation called into question when I post a literal reading of scripture.
Then you need to consider whether it was plain literal or figurative literal. I have a feeling you were presenting figurative literal as plain literal, in which case they may have rightly called you out on it.
Robert Fitzpatrick was a man who spent over $140,000 on billboards and other advertisements to proclaim the gospel leading up to the return of Jesus on May 21, 2011 according to the predictions made by Harold Camping. No matter what anyone here thinks of Camping, Mr. Fitzpatrick acted with integrity; he acted in a manner consistent with his own beliefs. He acted in a manner consistent with the Dispensational Premillennial teaching he had received. He genuinely believed he was not going to be around to spend his wealth, so he spent it on that which was important to him: the gospel. Scores of people have behaved in like manner due to the Dispensational Premillennialist eschatology they were taught. They all lost their money foolishly and no one in DP leadership ever apologized or compensated any of them.

If a person truly believes they will raptured off of the planet next week, next month, next year, within the next decade or two then there is little sense in paying a mortgage, saving money for retirement, or investing in profitability of future stocks. That person will not be around to spend that wealth if what they believe to be true is in fact true. Therefore, every single Dispensationalist who believes in a soon-occurring rapture but acts in a manner inconsistent with that belief is acting with hypocrisy. Ironically, Dispensational Premillennialism also explicitly asserts the Church is corrupt and actively anticipates false teachers in the future, particularly as the millennium approaches but 1) it fosters an enormous number of teachers who teach falsely and 2) it does nothing to change this practice. More often than not those decrying false teachers are false teachers.

In other words, there are numerous conditions wherein Dispensationalism fosters objectively observable hypocrisy, where the Dispensationalist practices that which s/he reports to eschew or disdain.
You do realize that when you have a soon/imminent event, you have no idea when it is going to occur, right? It is impossible to know. And when you ask people to tell you, you are basically attacking Jesus' statement, of which every dispensationalist should remember, it isn't our business to know about times or seasons that God the Father has established by His own power. We are to be evangelizing the world. We have been given signs for some things, and no signs for others. Those we can know the signs, but we don't know when they are going to happen. For instance, there will be plagues before the kingdom, and Jesus second coming. Have you heard of the black plague? 1/3 of the population of the known world dead... in the 14th century. Kingdom against kingdom and nation against nation. WW I and II. (Just one war with an intermission). Kingdom against kingdom, and nation against nation is a Jewish idiom, and when you consider its meaning, that's really all you are left with. BTW, with idioms, it means it doesn't have a direct connection to your language/culture, so it has to be explained. When I was learning to be a linguist with the Russian language, the Russian teachers kept asking us what English idioms mean, because they couldn't wrap their minds around some of them. They understood when we explained it has a lot to do with feeling. (Also known as nuance). Russians have some really crazy idioms and slang. For istance, "Overconfident" is a sentence (slang) in Russian literally translated "one who sits on porcupine with bare backside."
No other eschatology has these problems)
You might be surprised how many problems your own eschatology has. Presupposition features heavily in covenantal amillennialism. Not to mention a lot of eisegesis. I can't say much on it because I am only about half way through the book I am reading on that. It is part of a 13 year researched doctrinal thesis. (The original thesis was 2200 pages...)
From an article at Christianity Today on John Darby.

What separated Darby's dispensationalism was his novel method of biblical interpretation, which consisted of a strict literalism, the absolute separation of Israel and the church into two distinct peoples of God, and the separation of the rapture (the 'catching away' of the church) from Christ's Second Coming. At the rapture, he said, Christ will come for his saints; and at the Second Coming, he will come with his saints.”​

How many Dispensationalists do you know currently planning to liquidate their IRAs before the Rapture?
As what has already presented, it isn't strict literalism. Also, if you know when the rapture is, please let me know because there are some computer parts I would like to buy, but they aren't cheap. If I don't need money for much longer, then I could go buy it. The rapture is imminent, in that it can happen at any time. However, the 70th week has a starting event that is set in stone. It isn't going to just happen at any time. It happens when he makes a new strong treaty with the many. (The he being some Gentile of Roman descent.)
 
Also within the text of Revelation they are highly inconsistent with being literal. They do not think grasshoppers are really grasshoppers, instead they are Blackhawk helicopters. The beast is not a beast according to the literal definition of beast. Etc. And yet,when they want to the chains that bind Satan are literal chains, a key is a literal key.
They are considering the passage to be literal-figurative. What is inconsistent with that. You are being inconsistent because it is locust not grasshopper.
" Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key to the shaft of the abyss was given to him. 2 He opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the shaft like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the shaft. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts [a]upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill [c]anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it [d]stings a person. 6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death [e]will flee from them!"

Based on this, with a literal-figurative take, this is some sort of demonic activity, and it is described as locusts. This is obviously figurative, however, it is impossible to truly know what John means other then the activity/actions will be locust like, minus hurting grass, green things, or trees. (So quite un-locust like) They will attack humans, which is also un-locust like.

There are some who want to see this as technology based, so they say it could be helicopters. If I was to make it technology like right now, I would say drones/uavs. What JOhn says next makes it clear he is not speaking of actual locusts:
"7 The [f]appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like human faces. 8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt people for five months. 11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is [g]Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name [h]Apollyon."

I will be honest, the sound of a UAV, given our modern mind, is that of a lawn mower on steroids, or more like a weed whacker. However, again, if I look at this literally, given the figurative take of the verses, this is literally demonic activity. So it should be taken as such, unless there is something elsewhere that gives one cause to change that interpretation. What I would say is that it is going to happen, and it will happen as written, with that which is hidden behind the figurative language revealed.
 
Scripture should be read literally, however there is a hermeneutic they speak to that has rules. It is nice that you don't mention this at all so you can bash dispys.
My response is the same here as it is in the other op: Please keep the posts about the posts and not the poster.

This is not about bashing dispys. This is about very real problems that actually exist within Dispensational Premillennial teachings. If you cannot keep the posts about the posts and discuss these very real problems with manners and respect, then either do not post or do not expect replies.

Yes, it is true Dispensational Premillennialism teaches "Scripture should be read literally, however there is a hermeneutic they speak to that has rules." That is not a point of disagreement. The problems with that statement are 1) scripture should NOT always be read literally and 2) Dispensational Premillennialists do not practice their hermeneutic with much consistency. I will gladly trade posts with anyone who can do so politely and respectfully and stay on topic one concern at a time.


So start over. Keep comments about dispy bashing out of the posts. Pick one concern. Discuss that one concern until we have agreement or agree to disagree before moving on to another. I am happy to start with the DP hermeneutic, if that is where you'd like to start but please feel free to start with another point if you'd prefer.
 
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