Sin, chaos, and entropy

[CrowCross]

Okay. Guess this is one of those things we just can’t know for sure.

But, since it was in the garden, it’s possible many earth years could have passed. Agree?

I would think if Adam and Ever were in the garden for a long time period prior to the fall they would have had kids.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it....

 

[CrowCross]

Isn't that your application of the unseen eternal things? I.e., do you have any other reason to teach that the tree in the middle of the farden was hid from sight? Or are you just being poetic?

When people speak about these kind of things I don't mind speculation....as long as their speculation has a good reason. It keeps it interesting.

 

[Carbon]

I would think if Adam and Ever were in the garden for a long time period prior to the fall they would have had kids.

28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it....

Well that would depend on how long a day was in the garden.

 

[Carbon]

Well that would depend on how long a day was in the garden.

@CrowCross

So if we are talking from earths perspective one day in Eden could be 1000 years, or even 1,000,000 years.

But what you said is thought provoking

 

[makesends]

When people speak about these kind of things I don't mind speculation....as long as their speculation has a good reason. It keeps it interesting.

I don't mind speculation either. (In fact, I love mine ). But I wish people would do the disclaimer. I have a real problem with people claiming things they speculate as though it was doctrine-worthy truth. And I don't think many of us (sometimes even myself) realize how much of what we say is speculation, that we consider straightforward truth because of our worldview or mindset.

One of the worst and most prevalent things, I think, is that we all assume substance to our thoughts and the words we use to describe them.

 

[makesends]

Well that would depend on how long a day was in the garden.

I heard of a couple of young Bible College graduates who got married immediately after their graduation ceremony, and had a baby 9 months and 10 minutes later.

 

[CrowCross]

Well that would depend on how long a day was in the garden.

Do you need the day in the garden to be longer or shorter than 24 hours for some reason?

 

[Carbon]

Do you need the day in the garden to be longer or shorter than 24 hours for some reason?

I don't need anything. If I was trying to prove something, then perhaps I'd need something.

 

[makesends]

But of course that doesn't have anything at all to do with the subject. Obviously, God can alter His natural law in any way and at any time that He chooses.

Can? Or will?

 

[makesends]

We don't know exactly when it started. But it started outside the garden and got worse and worse since the flood.

I'm not so sure. My notions of natural law were that very little changed as far as natural cause and effect. The problem was the perversion of what was good and pure. Entropy is simply the tendency of all things to move from order to disorder —that is, as WE see them in relation to usefulness and accessibility. I think earth worms died and rotted in the garden, and their molecules and atoms became dirt, along with the rotting vegetation.

The curse, to my mind, was not about that, but about what is described in Ecclesiastes. Toil and frustration.

Seems that any discussion of the definition of entropy ends up involving words like randomness and loss. I personally object to those, as they are (I think) only human assessments. God never lost any control over anything, and 'inhabits' every particle.

 

[Mr GLee]

So you think Eden was separate from the Garden.

Yes, called a walled city to represent His bride . In the middle of the forest hiding the tree of eternal life as a parable. between the temporal things seen and the unseen eternal things of Christ.

A god who hides hides himself in parables

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Isn't that your application of the unseen eternal things? I.e., do you have any other reason to teach that the tree in the middle of the farden was hid from sight? Or are you just being poetic?

I hope I am understanding the poetic tongue of God correctly. . called the signified ? Called hidden manna in Rev 2:17

Eve is the one who said that God had said, "neither shall you touch it". Though I object to the positive statement that it was added to what God had actually said. We don't know for sure everything that God had told them.

I would think Eve seduced by the father of lies causing her to doubt (Has God said?????) She confirmed the lie by believing it and pronouncing the words of her heart (neither shall ye touch it,)

Genesis 3:1King James Version Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 

[Arial]

I'm not so sure. My notions of natural law were that very little changed as far as natural cause and effect. The problem was the perversion of what was good and pure. Entropy is simply the tendency of all things to move from order to disorder —that is, as WE see them in relation to usefulness and accessibility. I think earth worms died and rotted in the garden, and their molecules and atoms became dirt, along with the rotting vegetation.

The curse, to my mind, was not about that, but about what is described in Ecclesiastes. Toil and frustration.

Seems that any discussion of the definition of entropy ends up involving words like randomness and loss. I personally object to those, as they are (I think) only human assessments. God never lost any control over anything, and 'inhabits' every particle.

Truthfully, I don't know about the worms. Going from order to disorder, since I am not a scientist but the principle is observable, everything, be it man, animal, tree, building, machine, miles of concrete----the minute it is alive of completed, is from that point working towards its end. It is never going in the other direction.

I find it difficult to imagine God creating what was very good with that intent. What I can and cannot imagine is irrelevant of course. I do know that there were no carnivores in the Garden of Eden, and that that, at least in our world and horizontal view, began after the fall. It seems to me that more than just being cast out of the Garden and a cursing of the ground took place after the fall. Perhaps a cosmic shift, that then shifted more over time. (People began to live shorter lives progressively after the flood for one thing.) And something had to change in the unseen things in order for the flood to even occur. Not only that, but Romans says that it is God who subjected the creation to futility as a direct result of man's departure into sin. Maybe it is after the fall, that God introduced the principle of entropy in all its scientific components and its visible ones, into the world. Maybe there was no such thing before the fall.

 

[Alive]

It might help to think of entropy as a factor of corruption or corruptible.
1Cor. 15:50 (NKJVS) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

 

[Josheb]

Over the years, I have encountered a few Christians who relate entropy to sin and chaos. Is this justified? I don't think so, at least not scientifically.

Deut 29:5 I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet....God is in control of entropy.

I don't think so, either. The problem here is that the first two laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems, and neither the earth nor creation is a closed system.

I think connecting entropy to sin is a fool's endeavor. Entropy is a physical entity having nothing whatsoever to do with sin. If God had created the universe as we now see it but without any human beings, entropy would still exist as the physical entity it is.

I think of entropy as that law that makes things move from a state of order to disorder.

It would seem right from the beginning the need photosynthesis. Day night, warm cold preparing for the creation of mankind day 6. (food oxygen )......

He can not be discovered in a chemistry lab or a walk through the park . The temporal must be mixed with the eternal things of faith (unseen)

I think it's worth mentioning that entropy, like so many other things we assume as 'principle', is not loss of information to heat, except in OUR ability to recount. That is, to God, there is no loss, not just of useful energy, but no loss of anything. As usual, humans look at things backwards. Just saying...

I'm not sure why this is not correctly grasped and understood but "entropy" is a condition of closed systems, not open ones. It is, therefore, completely is guided to relate entropy to sin and chaos! The premise is a red herring and most of the resulting explanations in this thread are straw men. They are also, therefore, a misuse of both scripture and science (God's revelation through the methodical observation of creation).

There is also another problem because entropy is not chaos. Entropy is observable and it occurs according to preset design, or according to prescribed "scientific laws." Unless a poster is using the word "chaos" within the concept of Chaos Theory (an oxymoronically named theory), there is no such thing as chaos. The word "chaos" means "complete disorder and confusion." Anyone and everyone who asserts God is sovereign, or God is in control, has self-contradicted any dictionary-defined use of "chaos". I would argue the same condition exists with sin because sin is not confused or disordered; it means to corrupt everything in every way it can. It is the antithesis to the Thesis and there is no third alternative or "synthesis" in creation (dialectically speaking).

Fundamentally, the problem discussing entropy as sin or (sin-induced) chaos is the same problem applying time to God. It's a created temporal condition that does not apply to God. Similarly, entropy is a scientific construct that does not apply to creation.... because creation is not a closed system. and entropy is not synonymous with chaos or the scriptural definitions of sin. Apologetically, the premise of "entropy" is bait! Any non-Christian broaching the subject should instantly be reminded entropy us a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system. Likewise, any Christian teacher (mis)using the scientific concept to describe sin has also committed the same error. Again, our immediate and unequivocal response should be to remind them entropy is a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system and sin is not confused or completely disordered. Furthermore, "entropy" is a concept in secularism. The concept is atheistic in the sense it gives no regard to God as explanatory.

 

[Mr GLee]

Truthfully, I don't know about the worms. Going from order to disorder, since I am not a scientist but the principle is observable, everything, be it man, animal, tree, building, machine, miles of concrete----the minute it is alive of completed, is from that point working towards its end. It is never going in the other direction.

I find it difficult to imagine God creating what was very good with that intent. What I can and cannot imagine is irrelevant of course. I do know that there were no carnivores in the Garden of Eden, and that that, at least in our world and horizontal view, began after the fall. It seems to me that more than just being cast out of the Garden and a cursing of the ground took place after the fall. Perhaps a cosmic shift, that then shifted more over time. (People began to live shorter lives progressively after the flood for one thing.) And something had to change in the unseen things in order for the flood to even occur. Not only that, but Romans says that it is God who subjected the creation to futility as a direct result of man's departure into sin. Maybe it is after the fall, that God introduced the principle of entropy in all its scientific components and its visible ones, into the world. Maybe there was no such thing before the fall.

I would offer. .

It would seem the trial of faith 1 Peter 1:7 (the unseen eternal )they failed to trust our unseen Holy Father

Genisis3:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (The letter of the law death never to rise to new life )

The temporal spirit given under the letter of the law (death ) That temporal spirit returned to the Father of all Spirit life. The temporally flesh returned to dust the field of clay.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, (born again) being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[JIM]

I'm not sure why this is not correctly grasped and understood but "entropy" is a condition of closed systems, not open ones.

Absolutely not true. Entropy is applicable to the physical universe. It is just that the entropy of a closed system is always nonnegative. The entropy of an open system can negative, zero or positive. Given adequate information of the system it can be calculated.

It is, therefore, completely is guided to relate entropy to sin and chaos! The premise is a red herring and most of the resulting explanations in this thread are straw men. They are also, therefore, a misuse of both scripture and science (God's revelation through the methodical observation of creation).

Yeah, you are certainly misusing science.

There is also another problem because entropy is not chaos. Entropy is observable and it occurs according to preset design, or according to prescribed "scientific laws." Unless a poster is using the word "chaos" within the concept of Chaos Theory (an oxymoronically named theory), there is no such thing as chaos. The word "chaos" means "complete disorder and confusion." Anyone and everyone who asserts God is sovereign, or God is in control, has self-contradicted any dictionary-defined use of "chaos". I would argue the same condition exists with sin because sin is not confused or disordered; it means to corrupt everything in every way it can. It is the antithesis to the Thesis and there is no third alternative or "synthesis" in creation (dialectically speaking).

Sorry, none of that made much sense at all. But I am almost positive that it had nothing to do with entropy, and little if anything to do with sin.

Fundamentally, the problem discussing entropy as sin or (sin-induced) chaos is the same problem applying time to God.

The problem discussing entropy as sin is that entropy really as nothing to do with sin and sin has nothing to do with entropy.

Any non-Christian broaching the subject should instantly be reminded entropy us a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system.

Again, entropy is not a condition of a closed system. It is a feature, a scientific theory, about energy transfer of any system, closed or open.

Likewise, any Christian teacher (mis)using the scientific concept to describe sin has also committed the same error. Again, our immediate and unequivocal response should be to remind them entropy is a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system and sin is not confused or completely disordered. Furthermore, "entropy" is a concept in secularism. The concept is atheistic in the sense it gives no regard to God as explanatory.

Totally ridiculous. Is gravity a concept that is atheistic? Of course not, neither is entropy.

 

[Mr GLee]

The problem discussing entropy as sin is that entropy really as nothing to do with sin and sin has nothing to do with entropy.

I would offer.

Christ the Spirit of truth who works in us cannot be known by the dying corrupted temporal things seen.

They are lovingly warned of those who think God can be disproven by looking into a microscope or viewing through a telescope. The foundation of Paganism . ."Out of sight out of mind" .No faith needed to trust Christ the eternal invisible head or husband Christ

These rudiments will be burnt up on the last day under the Sun . .New heaven and earth will appear .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations (plural two beginning's) of the heavens and of the earth when they (plural two beginning's)were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Its not a train as the light of the end of the tunnel. Its new life. It is just over the horizon of faith . . the gospel train, No ticket needed just get on board and thank the Lord (LOL) The Temptations 60's

 

[makesends]

I'm not sure why this is not correctly grasped and understood but "entropy" is a condition of closed systems, not open ones. It is, therefore, completely is guided to relate entropy to sin and chaos! The premise is a red herring and most of the resulting explanations in this thread are straw men. They are also, therefore, a misuse of both scripture and science (God's revelation through the methodical observation of creation).

There is also another problem because entropy is not chaos. Entropy is observable and it occurs according to preset design, or according to prescribed "scientific laws." Unless a poster is using the word "chaos" within the concept of Chaos Theory (an oxymoronically named theory), there is no such thing as chaos. The word "chaos" means "complete disorder and confusion." Anyone and everyone who asserts God is sovereign, or God is in control, has self-contradicted any dictionary-defined use of "chaos". I would argue the same condition exists with sin because sin is not confused or disordered; it means to corrupt everything in every way it can. It is the antithesis to the Thesis and there is no third alternative or "synthesis" in creation (dialectically speaking).

Fundamentally, the problem discussing entropy as sin or (sin-induced) chaos is the same problem applying time to God. It's a created temporal condition that does not apply to God. Similarly, entropy is a scientific construct that does not apply to creation.... because creation is not a closed system. and entropy is not synonymous with chaos or the scriptural definitions of sin. Apologetically, the premise of "entropy" is bait! Any non-Christian broaching the subject should instantly be reminded entropy us a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system. Likewise, any Christian teacher (mis)using the scientific concept to describe sin has also committed the same error. Again, our immediate and unequivocal response should be to remind them entropy is a condition of closed systems and creation is not a closed system and sin is not confused or completely disordered. Furthermore, "entropy" is a concept in secularism. The concept is atheistic in the sense it gives no regard to God as explanatory.

By saying, "creation is not a closed system", do you mean by "creation", "universe" or, "the act of creating"?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Eve is the one who said that God had said, "neither shall you touch it". Though I object to the positive statement that it was added to what God had actually said. We don't know for sure everything that God had told them.

I would think Eve seduced by the father of lies causing her to doubt (Has God said?????) She confirmed the lie by believing it and pronouncing the words of her heart (neither shall ye touch it,)

Genesis 3:1King James Version Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Where is verse 2?

As I said, EVE said it —not the serpent.

Why do you continue to call it a lie? We don't know if it was a lie or not. The Bible doesn't say that Eve added it. It doesn't say that God did not say it.

Do you have some reason to wax eloquent about the lie, if you don't really know it was a lie? Are you convinced it was a lie because it just feels like it to you?

 

[JIM]

I would offer.

Christ the Spirit of truth who works in us cannot be known by the dying corrupted temporal things seen.

They are lovingly warned of those who think God can be disproven by looking into a microscope or viewing through a telescope. The foundation of Paganism . ."Out of sight out of mind" .No faith needed to trust Christ the eternal invisible head or husband Christ

These rudiments will be burnt up on the last day under the Sun . .New heaven and earth will appear .

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations (plural two beginning's) of the heavens and of the earth when they (plural two beginning's)were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Its not a train as the light of the end of the tunnel. Its new life. It is just over the horizon of faith . . the gospel train, No ticket needed just get on board and thank the Lord (LOL) The Temptations 60's

What has any of that to do with sin, chaos or entropy?