Sin, chaos, and entropy

[JIM]

Study what?

Just about anything, but particularly the fields of natural science.

 

[Alive]

Just about anything, but particularly the fields of natural science.

What have you studied? Are you a scientist?

 

[JIM]

What have you studied? Are you a scientist?

I studied and worked engineering science; what may be termed classical physics mostly. My undergraduate degree was mechanical engineering.

 

[Alive]

I studied and worked engineering science; what may be termed classical physics mostly. My undergraduate degree was mechanical engineering.

What is classical physics?

 

[JIM]

What is classical physics?

Not quantum physics.

 

[Alive]

Not quantum physics.

Ok.
Engineering has a great many various disciplines.
Civil engineering?

 

[Carbon]

Did the principle of entropy that affects our entire world exist at creation, or is it a result of sin. God can change no entropy to entropy just as easily and quickly as he creates anything else.

Sure, the very instant time started.

 

[Arial]

Sure, the very instant time started.

We don't know exactly when it started. But it started outside the garden and got worse and worse since the flood.

 

[Arial]

Such thinking is one reason why some tend to leave the faith when they study at advanced levels.

Or not. What was the relevance of that?

 

[Mr GLee]

It would seem right from the beginning the need photosynthesis. Day night, warm cold preparing for the creation of mankind day 6. (food oxygen )

Day four switched on the temporal corruption time clock winding down to the last day under the Sun .

Time stand still or move backward

2 Kings 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

Joshua10:12-13 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

In that way after the temporal things seen we do not cannot know Christ

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

He can not be discovered in a chemistry lab or a walk through the park . The temporal must be mixed with the eternal things of faith (unseen)

 

[Carbon]

We don't know exactly when it started. But it started outside the garden and got worse and worse since the flood.

It did start outside the Garden. And outside the garden, in my understanding, everything aged normally. There was death of plants and animals. That's what I believe anyway.

 

[Mr GLee]

We don't know exactly when it started. But it started outside the garden and got worse and worse since the flood.

I would think as soon as the Lord saw false pride in Lucifer who was to protect the glory of things created. Satan became the god of this world claiming he was the faithful Creator. . . look at my serpent beauty and live forever .

.Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh to two building blocks of false pride

 

[CrowCross]

Was gravity the result of sin? Was electromagnetism the result of sin? Was thermodynamics the result of sin? Was mass or energy the result of sin? Was chemistry the result of sin?

With all due respect..you're grasping at straws.

 

[CrowCross]

It did start outside the Garden. And outside the garden, in my understanding, everything aged normally. There was death of plants and animals. That's what I believe anyway.

You could be right...but do you have any biblical support for it?

 

[makesends]

.

I don't think so, either.

The problem here is that the first two laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems, and neither the earth nor creation is a closed system. The sun constantly puts energy into the earth's ecosystems, and God does the same with creation. In addition, there are categorical errors being committed because sin is not material. Physical decay is not moral, either. Neither is it willful (see below). Comparing natural decay due to a lack of energy input (sustenance, maintenance or empowerment) to the active, deadly, empowered rotting effects of sin is like comparing apples to zucchinis because they both grow out of the ground and must therefore be either fruits or vegetables or, even worse, comparing diamonds to beets or potatoes because they are both found in the ground. The failure to correctly identify categories for comparison begets the fallacy of false equivalence.

And you, @TonyChanYT, should have caught this immediately since you're so big of first order logic.

Citing Dt. 29:5 is an astute response, of sorts, but it proves the point: God "input" energy into the "system" where it otherwise did not exist and that happened to truncate what would otherwise have been the natural order of events on earth where both entropy and sin are present. Technically, the wandering Hebrews clothing could have been put in a sealed vacuum and it would last forty years. Any decay that might occur would be minimal, occur at the atomic level, and not observable by the naked human eye. That is not what Dt. 29:5 is about, though. What God did was a miracle and that, by definition, is a suspension or violation of the otherwise normal conditions. The lack of wear in Dt. 29:5 is due to willful acts on God's part, not that of the clothing.







More fundamentally, though, this question about entropy has other problems (such as the fact decay, or loss of energy and/or order is not exactly identical to chaos) but perhaps the most important for Christians is that decay and death have always existed and they exist as a good thing, while the death and decay resulting from sin is not a good thing. God uses both, and both have utilitarian value, but the latter is not morally or spiritually good. We know death existed in the garden because a plant produces according to its own kind and that necessarily entails the plant producing fruit that produce fruit that produces seeds, and the seeds are then buried where the seeds die and then produce another plant that produces more seeds. If that death does not occur, then there is no reproduction. That, however, is an entirely different kind of death than that which occurs by sin. Another example would be the cow or the baboon who happens to slip off a mountainside path thousands of feet up from the ground below. The God-made laws of creation include gravity and that cow or monkey does not technically "fall" to the ground. They are pulled to the ground by gravity. If a cow falls off a cliff it then plummets to the ground below and splatters upon impact, and then dies. We would have to say the otherwise natural laws of God's design were so different in Eden before sin's entrance that the laws of physics did not apply. A creature would not fall off a cliff. If it did fall thousands of feet (medically speaking, a fall of just 25 feet can be fatal) it somehow would not die because of the sudden stop at the end. The point being those kinds of deaths are not chaos, a loss of order, or entropy. The death of a person falling off a cliff is a much different death than the death resulting from having your sibling deliberately kill you with a rock. We call the first death an accident; we call the latter murder.

And, again, you, Tony should have caught these presuppositional errors since you're supposedly big on predicate logic and making sure everyone else does the same. I will commend this op for something rare: there's no reddit link to another self-justifying and self-aggrandizing TonyChanYT opinion!

I think it's worth mentioning that entropy, like so many other things we assume as 'principle', is not loss of information to heat, except in OUR ability to recount. That is, to God, there is no loss, not just of useful energy, but no loss of anything. As usual, humans look at things backwards. Just saying...

 

[JIM]

With all due respect..you're grasping at straws.

With all due respect, the straws are that you can't seem to find the answer to the questions.

 

[JIM]

This kinda fits.

Romans 8:
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.

Even a little rational thought and legitimate exegesis will tell you that the "creation" in Romans 8:18-30 is mankind, no more nor less.

 

[JIM]

Ok.
Engineering has a great many various disciplines.
Civil engineering?

Undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering.

 

[JIM]

I think it's worth mentioning that entropy, like so many other things we assume as 'principle', is not loss of information to heat, except in OUR ability to recount. That is, to God, there is no loss, not just of useful energy, but no loss of anything. As usual, humans look at things backwards. Just saying...

That makes no sense. I don't even know what the point is that you are trying to make. Entropy is real.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer. Entropy turning towards transforming into something. .

Death the end never to rise up in smoke .

It would seem a new Periodic table not subject to corruption. The new heaven and earth not reconditioned .The old corrupted dying will not be remembered or ever come to mind

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.