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Simplifying The Catholic - Protestant Divide.

must be in Christ and in a state of sanctifying grace!

thks
I thought all those in Christ are in a state of sanctifying grace.
 
must be in Christ and in a state of sanctifying grace!

thks
Hi Don

To be in Christ is us in him (Emanuel) the invisible Spirit of sanctifying grace.

Not the spirit of desanctifying, defiling grace of Limbo for the younger sinners and Purgatory for the more mature. No salvation

The living abiding word of God infallibly informs us there must be heresies as differences of opinion seeing the kingdom of God does not come by looking at the temporal dying.

In that way not all oral traditions of dying mankind are damnable. What makes them damnable (no light of sola scriptura) is when the fullness of Grace the full price of salvation is only given to a queen mother passed down from the Jewish fathers that some call Mary. Named after our blessed sister in the lord. The rest of the planet a unknow remnant of Grace

Satan the King of lying signs to wonder suffer, wonder suffer, suffer, suffer after as if true prophecy (sola scriptura)

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying, the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Philippians 3:8-10Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith (powerful )of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (power)That I may know him, and the power (faith) of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, (not purgatory) being made conformable unto his death;
 
I thought all those in Christ are in a state of sanctifying grace.
How would one have a clue they were either/both (in Christ/in a state of sanctifying grace)?

[I know that was a SERIOUS question at the start of MY walk and I think Catholics and Protestants have a different answer ... but it is not my place to speak for others.]
 
How would one have a clue they were either/both (in Christ/in a state of sanctifying grace)?

[I know that was a SERIOUS question at the start of MY walk and I think Catholics and Protestants have a different answer ... but it is not my place to speak for others.]
IMHO, to be in Christ is to have a new nature…
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

2 Peter 1:4 ESV
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

Galatians 6:15 KJV
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Ephesians 2:1,5 KJV
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Hath quickened us is key. This may sound a bit experiential, but I believe it is also scriptural and similar to what I went through.
 
yes its both! The merits of Christ provides the grace Jn 1:16-17
I'm still a bit confused In post # 20 you added 'and sanctifying grace'. Why did you add that when now you say merits of Christ provides the grace'? Aren't those in Christ already sanctified?
 
I'm still a bit confused In post # 20 you added 'and sanctifying grace'. Why did you add that when now you say merits of Christ provides the grace'? Aren't those in Christ already sanctified?
Redemption, Justification, sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:4 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Matt 24:14 endures to the end.

Purification: no unclean thing enter the heavenly realms of glory!

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Glorification:

Suffering with Christ is required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him!

Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 Matt 19:22 endure to the end in union with Christ and his saints by grace with good works.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
 
(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
What then is your definition of redemption/salvation? It sounds as if we go from being enemies, to becoming reconciled through the redemption provided in Christ to salvation.
Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
Being already in Christ, aren't we 'set apart' (sanctified)?
Galatians 1:15-16
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased [16] to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
With that type of logic, we aren't righteous, sanctified or redeemed. :(
1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
 
1) works means natural works done on our own efforts apart from union with Christ & His grace!
(however good in themselves they are "dead works" devoid of grace and Christ Jn 15:5)

2) we need union with Christ and His grace that gives life and power to us and our work's raising them from "dead works" to "good or meritorious works"

3) the grace of justification is by faith & baptism

4) we are granted the grace of justification but then must become holy

psalm 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

not just a declaration of righteousness

Matthew 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

thks
Hi Don.

Don, I agreed, works from the flesh apart from the Spirit would be dead works. I also agree with half of your next statement. I think we would differ on who actually receives the merit from those good works. I believe that would be God. Your statement "the grace of justification is by faith & baptism", I would also disagree with. That would be adding to the Word. We are justified by faith alone, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9). The baptism that saves, that being a Spiritual baptism, is a result of that faith. Jesus is the baptizer. The Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. When the Holy Spirit is placed into us by Jesus, we are as a result, "placed into" the Body, the Spiritual Church, "immersed" into Christ, being what the Bible calls "in Christ". That's the one true "baptism" that saves.

When you said "we are granted the grace of justification but then must become holy". Again I agree, but would word it differently and stress to anyone reading that we are speaking of evidences of a genuine faith, which cannot be a merit for that same justification.

Concerning the scripture that you posted. These would all but one be speaking of the evidences of a genuine faith, not the merit that saves, which must be perfect. I would separate Matthew 5:20 from the rest. As Jesus was stressing the point that they can't save themselves by good works. This is a very common theme by Jesus before the cross.

This link will explain the point better (it's not that long).

Dave
 
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Don.

You seem to be using the word "salvation" as synonymous with practical, or progressive sanctification. Which is separate from positional sanctification (what justifies us). By using the word "salvation" as synonymous with practical sanctification, it's only confusing the matter because "salvation" is often used with the idea of justification in scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 come to mind. That's justification. Just sayin'

Dave
 
Don.

You seem to be using the word "salvation" as synonymous with practical, or progressive sanctification. Which is separate from positional sanctification (what justifies us). By using the word "salvation" as synonymous with practical sanctification, it's only confusing the matter because "salvation" is often used with the idea of justification in scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 come to mind. That's justification. Just sayin'

Dave
Good catch. I couldn't make sense of the tangled words.
 
Hi Don.

Don, I agreed, works from the flesh apart from the Spirit would be dead works. I also agree with half of your next statement. I think we would differ on who actually receives the merit from those good works. I believe that would be God. Your statement "the grace of justification is by faith & baptism", I would also disagree with. That would be adding to the Word. We are justified by faith alone, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9). The baptism that saves, that being a Spiritual baptism, is a result of that faith. Jesus is the baptizer. The Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. When the Holy Spirit is placed into us by Jesus, we are as a result, "placed into" the Body, the Spiritual Church, "immersed" into Christ, being what the Bible calls "in Christ". That's the one true "baptism" that saves.

When you said "we are granted the grace of justification but then must become holy". Again I agree, but would word it differently and stress to anyone reading that we are speaking of evidences of a genuine faith, which cannot be a merit for that same justification.

Concerning the scripture that you posted. These would all but one be speaking of the evidences of a genuine faith, not the merit that saves, which must be perfect. I would separate Matthew 5:20 from the rest. As Jesus was stressing the point that they can't save themselves by good works. This is a very common theme by Jesus before the cross.

This link will explain the point better (it's not that long).

Dave
eph 2 refers to redemption not justification

was noah sealed in the ark by God?
 
Hi Don

You said "eph 2 refers to redemption not justification"

I disagree. Justification cannot be in opposition to redemption, because justification is part of redemption. It's clear to me that Paul, in Ephesians 2:8-9, is speaking within the context of both justification, and redemption. In fact, like the term "salvation", the term "redemption" in scripture is used in the same context of justification.

Romans 3:20-28 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the *redemption* that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.




1 Peter 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.




"Justification is a principal benefit of redemption that Christ secured for the elect. In justification, God declares sinners righteous in His sight in the divine law court. According to Scripture and the Reformed tradition, justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone."

"Justification is one of the central benefits of redemption that God applies to believers on the basis of Jesus’ sinless life, atoning death, and resurrection from the dead. In justification, ungodly and guilty men and women are counted righteous before God (Rom. 4:5). This means that God forgives their sins and accepts them as righteous in His sight on the basis of the saving work of Jesus alone (Rom. 4:6–8). Scripture is clear that individuals are justified by faith alone in Christ alone (Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9). The Westminster Shorter Catechism provides the most succinct definition of the doctrine of justification, when it states, “Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardons all our sins, and accepts us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone” (Q&A 33)."

 
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A cut and paste from the recent past. These quotes apply also.


"The cross alone, however, does not justify us . . . We are justified not only by the death of Christ, but also by the life of Christ. Christ's mission of redemption was not limited to the cross. To save us He had to live a life of perfect righteousness. His perfect, active obedience was necessary for His and our salvation . . . We are constituted as righteous by the obedience of Christ which is imputed to us by faith" [R. C. Sproul, Faith Alone, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1997), p. 103].

The Bible calls that righteousness from Jesus' life in His incarnation "the righteousness of God". That's what justifies us. Jesus is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe.


Commentator Leon Morris wrote,

"Redemption is substitutionary, for it means that Christ paid the price that we could not pay, paid it in our stead, and we go free. Justification interprets our salvation judicially, and as the New Testament sees it Christ took our legal liability, took it in our stead. Reconciliation means the making of people to be at one by the taking away of the cause of hostility. In this case the cause is sin, and Christ removed that cause for us. We could not deal with sin. He could and did, and did it in such a way that it is reckoned to us. Propitiation points us to the removal of the divine wrath, and Christ has done this by bearing the wrath for us. It was our sin which drew it down; it was He who bore it. . . . Was there a price to be paid? He paid it. Was there a victory to be won? He won it. Was there a penalty to be borne? He bore it. Was there a judgment to be faced? He faced it"

(The Cross in the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1965], p. 405). Redemption, justification, reconciliation, removal of sin, and propitiation are all corollaries of the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross.

Dave
 
eph 2 refers to redemption not justification

was noah sealed in the ark by God?

I would think that which was hidden in the ark was revealed by that which was placed on the side of the ark (sola scriptura) as a parable.

Without parables the signified understanding Christ spoke not

God knew as soon as Moses passed away it would be like the first time he went he went up on Mount Siniah and the Father wrote sola scriptura on two tablets written with his finger on both sides no room for oral tradition of the legion of father "I heard it through the grapevine". Coming down the oral traditions of dying mankind full blown party time .

He moved Moses to destroy the first set of two. The second time to represent new-born again birth. He moved Moses to hewn out two new tablets then again with His finger He wrote on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind establishing the part of the priesthood copy makers

Deuteronomy 31:26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.; For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

When the Cats away the mice will play Queen mother of heaven destroying (sola scriptura)
 
Soy, justification is the topic, right? Being saved for us within the context of justification requires atonement for sin, and perfect righteousness. Justification speaks of the legality of our salvation.

To be saved means to be delivered. And that can be a much bigger topic than justification. We are delivered/saved from the penalty of sin, and the bondage of sin. Living that out, becoming what we are already reckoned (justification) to be in Him can be also be considered part of our salvation. But that's the filling of the Spirit and would still be an evidence with regards to justification, not a merit.

Remember Romans 10:1-4
Justification, righteousness, salvation, and eternal life are essentially different ways of speaking about the same thing because everyone who has one also has the others and we can't earn them as a wage even as the result of having perfect obedience to God's law, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law. For example, in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about earning it. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law.

The righteousness of God that justifies us is through faith in Jesus also. But the righteousness that you are speaking of is the evidence of salvation, not the justification of it. The Justification comes from what Jesus did for us. What justifies us before God was available to us before we were even born. We don't live it out to obtain it, we simply believe and it is given to us in a moment. The rest is evidences for us, being practically sanctified, not positionally sanctified.
God being a doer of righteous works is not evidence that He is righteous, but rather that is what it means for God to be righteous. Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of righteous works is what he is doing for us as part of his gift of salvation, not evidence or the justification of it.

The way to believe in God is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits, which is also the way to attain the character traits of God. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is just is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy and so forth. This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

We are "saved" by grace, through faith, in Jesus Christ, not of works, not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast. But being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and trying to establish your own righteousness, you have not submitted to the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ. For Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into a doer of good works is nevertheless is intrinsically a central part of His gift of saving us from not being a doer of good works. God did not give His law as instructions for how to establish our own righteousness, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it. In Roman 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Jesus for all who believe, so know him is the goal of the law for righteousness for all who believe.

Being a doer of the Law doesn't justify us before Him. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,", remember?
While we do not earn our justification as the result of our obedience to God's law even through perfect obedience (Romans 4:1-5), choosing to be a doer of the law does justify us before God because that is the way to have faith (Romans 2:13). In James 2:18, he said that he would show his faith by his works, so the way to have faith in Jesus is by being a doer of the same works as James.

The only works that one can claim as merit are the ones from the flesh, those are called dirty rags by God. The flesh can only produce sin. That's what Paul said. The good works are an undeserved gift from Him and not a meritable work for us to claim. "For what do you have that you did not receive....".
Again, in Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, so God did not call those works dirty rags, nor is that passage speaking about the wa to become righteous. God is not a commander of filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

I'm not sure what your point is since the context is justification.
It is equally true that doing righteous works has absolutely nothing to do with contributing anything towards becoming justification, but rather being a doer of righteous works is what it means to be justified. In other words, there isn't anyone who is justified who isn't also a doer of righteous works and everyone who is a doer of righteous works has right legal standing before God.

God's Law is the standard for righteousness, and that standard demands perfect o bedience as I have shown. A just and Holy God cannot wink at sin. No OT saint that you claim were justified and declared righteous by God could be in the presence of God until after the cross. There's a reason for that. Adam and Eve were removed from God's presence because of one sin.
You have not show that, but rather I have given objections to that which you have not responded to, such as the fact that God's law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so it never required perfect obedience. Likewise with Romans 10:5-10 and Deuteronomy 30. Even if someone did have perfect obedience, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness as the result (Romans 4:1-5).

Soy, that's evidence, right?

Do you believe that justification is instantaneous, or a process?

What do you believe justifies a man before God?

Dave
No, that is intrinsically part of God's gifts of salvation, not evidence of it. Abraham was justified at least three different times. The one and only way to become justified before God is by faith and choosing to be an obeyer of God is the way to have that faith.

Soyeong

James is describing the difference between a living faith, and a dead faith. He's speaking of the evidence of a genuine faith that justifies. James is describing how works demonstrate a genuine faith. That's evidence. Read Hebrews 11 in that same light. The only righteousness acceptable to God is perfect righteousness. That's what Jesus did during His incarnate ministry as fully man and fully God.

Paul clears the matter up nicely. Look at Romans 4:1-7...
In Romans 4:1-7, it notably does not say that Abraham was declared righteous as the result of having perfect obedience, but because he believed God. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so Abraham was declared righteous in spite of having not had perfect righteousness.
 
I would think that which was hidden in the ark was revealed by that which was placed on the side of the ark (sola scriptura) as a parable.

Without parables the signified understanding Christ spoke not
Another set of words that doesn't make sense. Did you mean, "Christ did not speak without parables to give understanding"? I expect you are thinking of this verse:

“All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,” (Mt 13:34 NKJV)

But that cannot mean that He never spoke to the Jews without using parables. Just a little further on in Matthew, we read of Him talking in plain language, not parables, to the Pharisees:

“Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? "For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ "But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God" — ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"” (Mt 15:1-9 NKJV)
God knew as soon as Moses passed away it would be like the first time he went he went up on Mount Siniah and the Father wrote sola scriptura on two tablets written with his finger on both sides no room for oral tradition of the legion of father "I heard it through the grapevine". Coming down the oral traditions of dying mankind full blown party time .

He moved Moses to destroy the first set of two. The second time to represent new-born again birth. He moved Moses to hewn out two new tablets then again with His finger He wrote on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind establishing the part of the priesthood copy makers
The bible doesn't say that God moved Moses to destroy the first set of two tablets of the law. It just says:

“So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf [and] the dancing. So Moses’ anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain.” (Ex 32:19 NKJV)

Nor does it say that the second set represents the new birth. Where does it say that in the bible? You really should try to give bible references for what you write.
 
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Another set of words that doesn't make sense. Did you mean, "Christ did not speak without parables to give understanding"? I expect you are thinking of this verse:

“All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,” (Mt 13:34 NKJV)

But that cannot mean that He never spoke to the Jews without using parables. Just a little further on in Matthew, we read of Him talking in plain language, not parables, to the Pharisees:

“Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread." He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? "For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ "But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God" — ‘then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"” (Mt 15:1-9 NKJV)

The bible doesn't say that God moved Moses to destroy the first set of two tablets of the law. It just says:

“So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf [and] the dancing. So Moses’ anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain.” (Ex 32:19 NKJV)

Nor does it say that the second set represents the new birth. Where does it say that in the bible? You really should try to give bible references for what you write.
Thanks Dave

Parables do not destroy the simplicity of the gospel. It's not a salvation issue.

God not served by human hands. God Pouring out His Spirit life on dying mankind in jeopardy of His own spirit life giving them a new born again life. Parables enrich the gospel and can make the loa lighter if yoked with His labor of love believers can rest in the gospel

Yes, the law etched in stone is not subject to change by the oral traditions of dying mankind, All in Adam die and spiritless bodies return to field of clay.

Without parables the signified understanding or figure of speech. Christ the teaching Holy Spirit spoke not using the temporal things seen to give the unseen eternal things of faith. The "Let there be" power to please God.

The whole time period there was Kings in Isreal (abomination of desolation) was used as a parable of figure of speech using the temporal things seen as a shadow pointing ahead to the substance of Christ faith or called labor of His Love it was God alone good.

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience ;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Christ working in Moses did move him to destroy the first set. written on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind

Then to show our part as a kingdom of Preist Moses provided the writing material and again God wrote with his finger the same words on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind

Again, figure parable like the parable of Abraham and Issac to represent a man must be raised from the dead. . . born again. You must be born again that law began in Genesis 4 with Enos a second born .

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (parable)

Many think the "must be born again" as if it was a new testament law and did not begin with the second born Enos to replace the apostle Abel.

Then having the Spirit of Christ they could call on the powerful one Christ the Holy Spirit of ; And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed (Christ the spiritual) instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name (power) of the Lord.

The whole book of Revelation is written as a figure of speech a parable called hidden manna in Rev 2:17 to represent our daily bread

Revelation 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

For some reason when asked of the apostles when is the last day? The loving commandment. "no signs were given" did not take effect with some . They insisted on seeing God as a man (creation of their own device.

It's an evil generation un-redeemed that does seek after the temporal the Pagan foundation; "Out of sight out of mind" .Or I am from Missouri seeing is believing.

Like those who made Jesus into a circus seal. Do some magic work a miracle then when we see it with our own eye, we will believe for a micro second .

Mark 16:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

They through the Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after. . . sought after signs to wonder after as if true prophecy (sola scriptura) even calling signs the word used 2 times in Rev. and 9 times for the word mark.

They through as sign to wonder, wonder after taking away the true meaning of "Mark" taking way the difference between the two words. Destroying the true meaning of mark of the beast. 666
The mark of His word. What he says will come to pass .Let here be and it not seen became the good thing seen. If any man murder Cain by the sword he will die and not raise to new spirit life

Genisis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (666)upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

LOL . . Mark my word do not pass go. No get out of jail free Kamala ex vice President the racist, misogynistic. identity theft. gender neutral.

The spirit of limbo purgatory wondering, wondering, marveling, doubting. Cain a restless wonderer wandered in circles his whole life finding no home to rest for his soul as did Abel. the first apostle and martyr.

Sound the Trump. Pray for a continuing humbling spirit with Trump .Perhaps we can celebrate the fourth of July and make it great again. Then Trump can hit the beach like Biden who never left .LOL
 
Thanks Dave

Parables do not destroy the simplicity of the gospel. It's not a salvation issue.
I never said that they did destroy the simplicity of the gospel.
God not served by human hands. God Pouring out His Spirit life on dying mankind in jeopardy of His own spirit life giving them a new born again life. Parables enrich the gospel and can make the loa lighter if yoked with His labor of love believers can rest in the gospel

Yes, the law etched in stone is not subject to change by the oral traditions of dying mankind, All in Adam die and spiritless bodies return to field of clay.
This has nothing to do with my post.
Without parables the signified understanding or figure of speech. Christ the teaching Holy Spirit spoke not using the temporal things seen to give the unseen eternal things of faith. The "Let there be" power to please God.
But He did sometimes speak in a straightforward way, not in parables. At the wedding in Cana, for example:

“Jesus said to them, "Fill the waterpots with water." And they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, "Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast." And they took [it].” (Joh 2:7-8 NKJV)
The whole time period there was Kings in Isreal (abomination of desolation) was used as a parable of figure of speech using the temporal things seen as a shadow pointing ahead to the substance of Christ faith or called labor of His Love it was God alone good.

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience ;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Christ working in Moses did move him to destroy the first set. written on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind
Where do you read IN THE BIBLE that Moses destroyed the first set as a result of Christ working in him?
Then to show our part as a kingdom of Preist Moses provided the writing material and again God wrote with his finger the same words on both sides with no room for oral traditions of dying mankind

Again, figure parable like the parable of Abraham and Issac to represent a man must be raised from the dead. . . born again. You must be born again that law began in Genesis 4 with Enos a second born .

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. (parable)

Many think the "must be born again" as if it was a new testament law and did not begin with the second born Enos to replace the apostle Abel.
Where do you read in the bible that Enos replaced Abel? Surely it was Seth who replaced Abel, and that was by his first (natural) birth:

“And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, "For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed."” (Ge 4:25 NKJV)
Then having the Spirit of Christ they could call on the powerful one Christ the Holy Spirit of ; And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed (Christ the spiritual) instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name (power) of the Lord.

The whole book of Revelation is written as a figure of speech a parable called hidden manna in Rev 2:17 to represent our daily bread
The whole book of Revelation is not a parable. Certainly it contains much that is picture-language, from the vision God gave John.
Revelation 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

For some reason when asked of the apostles when is the last day? The loving commandment. "no signs were given" did not take effect with some . They insisted on seeing God as a man (creation of their own device.

It's an evil generation un-redeemed that does seek after the temporal the Pagan foundation; "Out of sight out of mind" .Or I am from Missouri seeing is believing.
Sorry, I am not American. What has Missouri got to do with your argument?
Like those who made Jesus into a circus seal. Do some magic work a miracle then when we see it with our own eye, we will believe for a micro second .

Mark 16:17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

They through the Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after. . . sought after signs to wonder after as if true prophecy (sola scriptura) even calling signs the word used 2 times in Rev. and 9 times for the word mark.

They through as sign to wonder, wonder after taking away the true meaning of "Mark" taking way the difference between the two words. Destroying the true meaning of mark of the beast. 666
The mark of His word. What he says will come to pass .Let here be and it not seen became the good thing seen. If any man murder Cain by the sword he will die and not raise to new spirit life

Genisis 4:15And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark (666)upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

LOL . . Mark my word do not pass go. No get out of jail free Kamala ex vice President the racist, misogynistic. identity theft. gender neutral.

The spirit of limbo purgatory wondering, wondering, marveling, doubting. Cain a restless wonderer wandered in circles his whole life finding no home to rest for his soul as did Abel. the first apostle and martyr.

Sound the Trump. Pray for a continuing humbling spirit with Trump .Perhaps we can celebrate the fourth of July and make it great again. Then Trump can hit the beach like Biden who never left .LOL
Again, all that is nothing to do with what I posted.
 
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