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Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief!

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Here is how the switch is being made:
  • Reconciled in Romans 5:10 refers to objective, accomplished reconciliation (Christ's death securing peace)
True Christ death reconciled the elect to God objectively and He is at Peace with them, they are in His favor, So how are they condemned objectively as them are in Jn 3:18 ? The elect are objectively reconciled with God. So who is condemning them? It aint God.

Now you need prove it false, without just saying Im wrong and threaten me with this rule
 
Really? He just equivocated some more. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you are not aware of the position he is trying to promote. To say that Christ saves sinners while in unbelief is technically correct. However, that is not what he means. He means the same thing as he means when he promotes eternal justification. That the elect is always saved and are never under condemnation.
I think (believe, it is my opinion) that he addressed the charge of RULES VIOLATION directed against him. He clearly demonstrated from scripture (Romans 5:10) that “believers” were reconciled while still “unbelievers” and from that stated HIS ARGUMENT that there was never a time when that statement was not true. He may be wrong (I have concerns with the concept but view the entire discussion as predominantly “unprofitable” for me), however, contrary to how minority opinion holders are occasionally treated on CCAM, holding an unpopular opinion is not itself a Rule Violation.

As was stated by another (and implied by bf52) … setting aside all people ever, when were you or I or anyone alive NOW ever not under the reconciliation as “unbelievers” described in Romans 5:10?
Then is it SO UNREASONABLE for someone to believe that the Lamb “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8) pushes that reality back to the “beginning”? (Even if we disagree with that belief.)
 
I think (believe, it is my opinion) that he addressed the charge of RULES VIOLATION directed against him. He clearly demonstrated from scripture (Romans 5:10) that “believers” were reconciled while still “unbelievers” and from that stated HIS ARGUMENT that there was never a time when that statement was not true.
It is the position of admin that he did not. I showed why not. The violation is not about what him demonstrating from scripture that believers were reconc8iiled while still unbelievers and from that there was never a time when that statement was not true. It was about him making a statement that equivocates on the word "condemned." And in doing so apply scriptures to something they don't apply to., which makes the Bible to be saying something that it is not saying. He did not address that in his response at all, let alone correctly.
however, contrary to how minority opinion holders are occasionally treated on CCAM, holding an unpopular opinion is not itself a Rule Violation.
Nor are unpopular opinions treated as rules violations. The rule violation is not even about his opinion. The rule violation is not answering the charge of a logical fallacy by either proving it is not a fallacy or agreeing that it is. It is the equivocation of terms that he constantly does that causes him to make scriptures to be saying something they are not saying. He could learn that he is doing that and learn to make sure he doesn't do it from this because I don't think he does it intentionally.


As was stated by another (and implied by bf52) … setting aside all people ever, when were you or I or anyone alive NOW ever not under the reconciliation as “unbelievers” described in Romans 5:10?
Romans 5:10 isn't saying that, no matter how many people are set aside.
Then is it SO UNREASONABLE for someone to believe that the Lamb “slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8) pushes that reality back to the “beginning”? (Even if we disagree with that belief.)
Only if one collapses categories---history into the eternal.
 
True Christ death reconciled the elect to God objectively and He is at Peace with them, they are in His favor, So how are they condemned objectively as them are in Jn 3:18 ? The elect are objectively reconciled with God. So who is condemning them? It aint God.

Now you need prove it false, without just saying Im wrong and threaten me with this rule
MOD HAT
The rule 4.4 is not about proving your statement above as false or not. The rule is about conceding that you equivocated "condemned" by using two scriptures that are not talking about the same thing. Post #135. That is what you have to deal with. I showed you in the post you are responding to that what you considered proving that that allegation (off equivocation) was false only produced more equivocation of terms.

This post you are responding to pointed out that equivocation invoking the same requirement by you to prove that allegation false or concede. All you did was give your interpretation of Rom 5:10

  • Reconciled in Romans 5:10 refers to objective, accomplished reconciliation (Christ's death securing peace)
  • Condemned in John 3:18 refers to present judicial standing under wrath due to unbelief.
The only reason I am leaving this portion of your post up and responding to it is in hopes that you will get with the program. Do you simply not understand what is being asked of you?
 
I am going to drop the discussion on the RULES.
However, I will speak to this specific statement …
Romans 5:10 isn't saying that, no matter how many people are set aside.

Let us talk about what an actual scripture verse does and does not say.

Romans 5:10 [NASB] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
  • we”: Who is “we”? Is it not those presently saved? Does it not include US (you and I)?
  • were enemies”: What is “were enemies”? Is it reasonable to equate this to “unsaved” (as a state prior to our being saved”)?
  • were reconciled”: Does this not indicate “reconciliation” in the past tense? Was this reconciliation not accomplished “through the death of His Son” (Jesus)? Did this historic event not occur around AD30-ish (long before we - you and I - were born)?
Then as I stated, was there EVER a time when WE (you and I) were not reconciled to God? I mean, one can possibly make an argument that WE (you and I) were unreconciled prior to AD 30(ish) … but is it really meaningful to debate a state of non-reconciliation prior to our existence? Certainly, from the moment of our conception, Romans 5:10 appears to make the argument that we were already “reconciled to God through the death of His Son” … even “while we were enemies”.
 
  • were reconciled”: Does this not indicate “reconciliation” in the past tense? Was this reconciliation not accomplished “through the death of His Son” (Jesus)? Did this historic event not occur around AD30-ish (long before we - you and I - were born)?
Then as I stated, was there EVER a time when WE (you and I) were not reconciled to God? I mean, one can possibly make an argument that WE (you and I) were unreconciled prior to AD 30(ish) … but is it really meaningful to debate a state of non-reconciliation prior to our existence? Certainly, from the moment of our conception, Romans 5:10 appears to make the argument that we were already “reconciled to God through the death of His Son” … even “while we were enemies”.
It indicates completed action at Christ's substitution. WHEN it happened is not the point of, "were reconciled". WHAT and HOW it happened is. The two occasions in this verse —"being reconciled", and, "having been reconciled"— are both aorist tense, indicating single point-in-time. Not indicative of sequence of time. It happened at the cross, yes, and that was necessarily in the past, from our point of view. That doesn't mean that we were not under condemnation until it is applied to us.

The same principle applies throughout the subject. It was decreed from the beginning, it was accomplished at the cross, it is applied by faith. WHAT happened is the point. Not WHEN.

It is not a question of whether we were ALREADY reconciled while we were enemies. Both time-dependent statements there are not even then about WHEN. What is being taught in Romans 5 is that God accomplished it for us completely undeserved (while we were enemies, Christ died). There is no statement that we were not still enemies until it was applied by faith.

Notice that the English construction, "while we were still enemies", in the Greek is a construction of rhetorical logic, with no mention of "while". It is very awkward to translate it literally, but I hope the reader can get the sense of it: "If, for enemies being, we were reconciled..."

(I'm thinking it could just as persuasively be argued that we were enemies before we were born as to argue that we were justified before we were born, according to Romans 5.)
 
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It indicates completed action at Christ's substitution. WHEN it happened is not the point of, "were reconciled". WHAT and HOW it happened is. The two occasions in this verse —"being reconciled", and, "having been reconciled"— are both aorist tense, indicating single point-in-time. Not indicative of sequence of time. It happened at the cross, yes, and that was necessarily in the past, from our point of view. That doesn't mean that we were not under condemnation until it is applied to us.

The same principle applies throughout the subject. It was decreed from the beginning, it was accomplished at the cross, it is applied by faith. WHAT happened is the point. Not WHEN.

It is not a question of whether we were ALREADY reconciled while we were enemies. Both time-dependent statements there are not even then about WHEN. What is being taught is that God accomplished it for us completely undeserved (while we were enemies, Christ died). There is no statement that we were not still enemies until it was applied by faith.
Perhaps you are correct, but … how can I know that?

Romans 5:10 [NASB] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

while we were enemies we were reconciled” says something in English that you are claiming it does not mean in Greek. I am unqualified to challenge your explanation of the Greek and “aorist” tense. However, I can ask this: why did the translation teams get the message wrong? Why did they select words and phrases in English that so clearly DO indicate WHEN if that is clearly “not the point” in the original?

How can I know that YOUR opinion is correct? I cannot reasonably be asked to reject my own opinion and the plain reading of the text in English just because “someone says so”.

The text certainly provokes questions about the distinction between “were reconciled” and “shall be saved”, but it appears to place “reconciled” in the past and “saved” at a different event.
 
Perhaps you are correct, but … how can I know that?

Romans 5:10 [NASB] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

while we were enemies we were reconciled” says something in English that you are claiming it does not mean in Greek. I am unqualified to challenge your explanation of the Greek and “aorist” tense. However, I can ask this: why did the translation teams get the message wrong? Why did they select words and phrases in English that so clearly DO indicate WHEN if that is clearly “not the point” in the original?

How can I know that YOUR opinion is correct? I cannot reasonably be asked to reject my own opinion and the plain reading of the text in English just because “someone says so”.

The text certainly provokes questions about the distinction between “were reconciled” and “shall be saved”, but it appears to place “reconciled” in the past and “saved” at a different event.
Two things are well taken into account, or three.

1) The Bible wasn't written in English —"Plain reading", for all its popularity modern day, is in the original languages, which involves more than anybody nowadays can know. But we can know a lot. We are blessed to have it written in those original languages—in Romans 5, the Greek, which is a very logical language, which fact Paul uses to great advantage. Even in English, it is easy to misunderstand a contemporary writer—I myself have written something I thought cogent and concise and the next day reading it again wondered what in the world was I thinking!

2) Scripture does not contradict itself. There is a modern, and I don't know how old, attitude that believers (and others) have adopted in reading the Scriptures, that I consider rather superstitious. It is true that the word of God exists throughout any translation —even in some of the worst paraphrases, the truth can be found. But notice how painfully wrong those paraphrases can be in trying to increase the readability or understandability of the text! The same thing happens with any translation. I don't mean to discourage anyone from hoping to understand. God does, after all, illuminate and bring things to mind and even instruct. This attitude toward Scripture is good, in that it holds the word of God in high regard, but it is faulty in that it thinks this 'language of heaven' is to be dealt with differently from plain language. We do, instead of how we do other books, deal with it in a one-thing-at-a-time way. One verse does not stand alone. There are 66 books of verses there, that must agree with it.

3) Orthodoxy is a useful anchor. It's true that we all read into what we read. We all have our point of view and our worldview and our biases, and we are dangerously adept at drawing patterns from what we see. Something looks reasonable and enthralling, so we check it out against other sound-alike references and forget to check it against time-proven Orthodoxy. The way I think of it is, believe as you think reasonable, even make suggestions to your brothers/sisters, but don't teach as absolute what Orthodoxy does not support, or, particularly, something that contradicts Orthodoxy. The creeds and confessions are very carefully written, and are necessarily concise for both readability, and for avoiding error-via-too-many-words. "Justification [is] by faith" or "...through faith". (In the Greek, "...proceeds out of faith" or even "is an extract of faith"). If anything we teach by some enthralling thought places justification into a timeline that denies justification-by-faith, the enthralling thought is suspect, and needs reworking.

4) You asked, "why did the translation teams get the message wrong?" They are always going to get it a little bit wrong, or, at least, not completely right. Like I've said, one language doesn't translate precisely into another. But on top of that, and the huge worldview differences between the first century (and earlier) writers and 2026 readers in another language, there is the fact that even the most skilled translators are swayed by bias, by the need for recognition, by pride and weakness of the flesh, the wish to be "done! already", by the shortcuts taken by referring to other translations for a good way to put something, by the need to please those who commissioned their work, and so on. But, again I repeat, the truth is still there. God's word will not return to him void. Not one jot nor one tittle will pass away. We CAN read it confidently. It is ourselves we need to hold in a bit of skepticism.

Concerning this particular passage, the English can be misleading to a reader, perhaps, but let's suppose the translators did as good a job as could be done, into the English. Not all readers who are following and studying Paul's argument read into it any discrepancy between timelines, because they already know he is not speaking of timelines, but the dynamics of what GOD has done, with a logical layout of particulars, irrespective of WHEN.
 
Not only did Christ merely die for unbelief, but He died for all the sins of them He died for. All their iniquities were laid on Him and met on Him Isa 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

That word iniquity also means He being punished for the iniquity that was caused to meet on Him. All of their moral evil and perversions were laid on Him, to mention their depravity, their actual sins and inherent filth and evil thoughts. Remember David prayed Ps 19:12

12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

These secret faults were laid on Christ, and His Blood cleanses from all sin ! 2
 
It indicates completed action at Christ's substitution. WHEN it happened is not the point of, "were reconciled". WHAT and HOW it happened is. The two occasions in this verse —"being reconciled", and, "having been reconciled"— are both aorist tense, indicating single point-in-time. Not indicative of sequence of time
Explain "we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son" we were reconciled katallassō is in the indicative mood which means a statement of fact !
Not only that reconciled katallassō means:

  1. to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
    1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
    2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
    3. to receive one into favour

καταλλαγῆναι τῷ Θεῷ, to be restored to the favor of God, to recover God's favor, Romans 5:10

Then explain how the reconciled enemies are under Gods wrath and condemnation as you say, and be received into His Favor by Christs death for them at the same time, obviously their has been a legal application of this benefit.

Now please explain
 
and “shall be saved”, but it appears to place “reconciled” in the past and “saved” at a different event.
The shall be saved denotes of further application of the Spiritual reconciliation of the elect. The Death reconciliation is primarily legal and denotes legal blessings like Justification, Forgiveness see Rom 5:9 but because the elect are still enemies and hostile to God, He saves them Spiritually as well by the renewing work of the Spirit Titus 3:5 but that's because legal barriers have been eliminated by the death of Christ, Jesus lives and intercedes for all the elect to have this Spiritual renewal based upon His Death for them, and of course "shall be saved by His Life" includes at the second coming the elect are saved from wrath to come Rom 5:9

. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood[legally], we shall be saved from wrath through him
 
I am going to drop the discussion on the RULES.
However, I will speak to this specific statement …


Let us talk about what an actual scripture verse does and does not say.

Romans 5:10 [NASB] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
  • we”: Who is “we”? Is it not those presently saved? Does it not include US (you and I)?
  • were enemies”: What is “were enemies”? Is it reasonable to equate this to “unsaved” (as a state prior to our being saved”)?
  • were reconciled”: Does this not indicate “reconciliation” in the past tense? Was this reconciliation not accomplished “through the death of His Son” (Jesus)? Did this historic event not occur around AD30-ish (long before we - you and I - were born)?
  • "We" Correct identification but overextended implication
  • "Were enemies": Correct observation but actually undermines eternal reconciliation. "Were enemies" describes a real prior state. If they were enemies, they were not already reconciled.
  • "Were reconciled": Correct grammar. Incorrect temporal application. The reconciliation is spoke of in the past tense and is explicitly grounded in the death of Christ. Paul is speaking of the objective accomplishment of reconciliation at the cross but viewed retrospectively from the standpoint of believers---not an already applied reconciliation apart from faith.
The immediate context confirms this---"much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." The "now" indicates a transition into a new state, not an eternal state that always existed.

Though your breakdown accurately identifies the subject, recognizes the prior state as enemies, and grounds reconciliation in Christ's death; it incorrectly treats past-tense language as proof of eternal application. That erases the real transition from enemy to reconciled in the passage and reduces salvation to awareness rather than change of status.
Then as I stated, was there EVER a time when WE (you and I) were not reconciled to God? I mean, one can possibly make an argument that WE (you and I) were unreconciled prior to AD 30(ish) … but is it really meaningful to debate a state of non-reconciliation prior to our existence? Certainly, from the moment of our conception, Romans 5:10 appears to make the argument that we were already “reconciled to God through the death of His Son” … even “while we were enemies”.
If we were enemies, we were not reconciled to God. Is it meaningful to debate a state on non-reconciliation prior to our existence? I think so, since it is contradictory to the historical account of redemption. But I am not the one who is preaching that such a thing is possible. Once it has been preached, it behooves those contending for the faith to correct the misunderstanding.

Perhaps a person could presume from Rom 5:10 that we were always reconciled to God even prior to faith if it was the only scripture they ever read or if they used that interpretation of the passage to change the meaning of all the other passages that explicitly state that the elect are reconciled to God through faith and in time. Why else would Jesus tell Nicodemus that no one could enter the kingdom of heaven unless they were born again of the Spirit?
 
Explain "we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son" we were reconciled katallassō is in the indicative mood which means a statement of fact !
Of course it's a statement of fact! That's no argument! Nobody is saying otherwise! And here's another exclamation mark!
Not only that reconciled katallassō means:
  1. to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
    1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
    2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
    3. to receive one into favour

καταλλαγῆναι τῷ Θεῷ, to be restored to the favor of God, to recover God's favor, Romans 5:10

Then explain how the reconciled enemies are under Gods wrath and condemnation as you say, and be received into His Favor by Christs death for them at the same time, obviously their has been a legal application of this benefit.
You are merely repeating your assertion, placing temporal application to eternal transactions.
Now please explain
It doesn't work that way.
 
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