Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief!

[Arial]

God doesnt condemn the elect for unbelief, or for any sin for that matter, all their sinfulness, disobedience, iniquity and rebellion etc He will be merciful to them Heb 8:12

I have not once disagreed with that. But the reason he doesn't condemn them for unbelief is because they believe.

 

[brightfame52]

But the reason he doesn't condemn them for unbelief is because they believe.

That's works then!

 

[Arial]

That's works then!

Do they believe before they believe?

 

[brightfame52]

Do they believe before they believe?

Huh ? What in the world r u talking about ? This comes out of left field

 

[Arial]

Huh ? What in the world r u talking about ? This comes out of left field

No, it doesn't come out of left field.

The elect by the death of Christ were legally reconciled to God without Faith in Christ and while a unregenerate enemy.

Though my post was not a direct response to the one above, it is the position you have maintained throughout the thread even though sometimes you camouflage it in language that is actually correct. And even though you are constantly compressing/conflating the eternal with the historical as though they are the same thing. I merely post the above to integrate it with your claim to answer the "Huh?" and the claim that my remark came out of left field. I figured the easiest place to find it was to go back to the early posts, before you did all the category collapsing that made it appear you were constantly contradicting yourself.

 

[brightfame52]

Now being in unbelief means a few things spiritually for all sinners naturally. Naturally the elect as well as the non elect are spiritually blind to the spiritual things of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Secondly, the elect by nature in unbelief have hardness of heart towards God and spiritual matters. In fact the word blindness in Eph 4:18 is the grreek word pōrōsisand means:

stupidity or callousness:—blindness, hardness.

Paul writing of jews by nature writes Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

However that doesnt just apply to the unregenerate jews, but to unregenerate gentiles as well, who are in unbelief.

And thirdly to be in unbelief is to be spiritually alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

This is how God finds His elect for the purpose of mercy!

 

[Arial]

Now being in unbelief means a few things spiritually for all sinners naturally. Naturally the elect as well as the non elect are spiritually blind to the spiritual things of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

2 Cor 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Secondly, the elect by nature in unbelief have hardness of heart towards God and spiritual matters. In fact the word blindness in Eph 4:18 is the grreek word pōrōsisand means:

stupidity or callousness:—blindness, hardness.

Paul writing of jews by nature writes Rom 2:5

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

However that doesnt just apply to the unregenerate jews, but to unregenerate gentiles as well, who are in unbelief.

And thirdly to be in unbelief is to be spiritually alienated from the life of God Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

This is how God finds His elect for the purpose of mercy!

This seems to be saying God blinds the elect, so he can find them for the purpose of mercy. Is that what you are saying?

 

[brightfame52]

This seems to be saying God blinds the elect, so he can find them for the purpose of mercy.

They came into that condition as a result of their sin in Adam

 

[Arial]

They came into that condition as a result of their sin in Adam

So, they were born sinners, born under condemnation, right?

 

[brightfame52]

So, they were born sinners,

Yes

born under condemnation, right?

No for the hundreth time

 

[Arial]

Yes

No for the hundreth time

If they weren't born under condemnation but they were sinners, why does Scripture say they must believe and repent in order to be saved? Why does it say by grace you are saved (sins forgiven) through faith? I am just trying to get you to maybe think in a logical, linear way without confusing the eternal with the temporal. Maybe this will help, a quick brief look at the eternal Covenant of Redemption. That is where we see the eternal and what will/must be done historically (in time) by Jesus and the Spirit. It most resembles a royal grant covenant.

• The Father grants the Son a people and a kingdom
• The Son earns the reward through faithful obedience
• The grant is irrevocable (John 6:37–39)

Father to the Son

• John 6:37–40 – People given, mission assigned
• John 17:2–6 – Authority and people entrusted
• Isa 42:1–7 – Servant commissioned
• Ps 40:7–8 / Heb 10:5–10 – Mission accepted

Son to the Father

• John 17:4 – “I have finished the work you gave me to do”
• Heb 12:2 – Joy set before Him

The Spirit

• Isa 42:1
• John 16:14
• Applies the accomplished work to the elect.

You see, humans are not even mentioned in it accept as a people being given to the Son. If the elect are born uncondemned sinners there is no need for the Spirit to apply the work of Christ's obedience even unto death, to them through regeneration and faith. They are already uncondemned sinners and that is a violation of God's justice and the whole of Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

If they weren't born under condemnation but they were sinners,

Correct

why does Scripture say they must believe and repent in order to be saved?

For evidence and assurance to themselves they are saved. Both repentance and faith are gifts given by Christ when He regenerated them

Why does it say by grace you are saved (sins forgiven) through faith?

Sins are not forgiven through faith, they are forgiven by the Blood of Christ, and that forgiveness is received into the elects consciousness by Faith. The elect are born into the world forgiven through Christ. If you base forgiveness on something you do, or something in you, thats works/merit and its condemned by scripture and Christ is dishonored. And Im not going to be back and forth with this particular point, you already know my stand on that.

 

[Arial]

For evidence and assurance to themselves they are saved.

But that is not what it says is it? It does not say that faith is given for evidence and assurance, does it? It says salvation is given through faith. See the difference and how you have redefined terms in order to support something that cannot be supported by Scripture? You used God's very word to produce what is false. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[brightfame52]

The mercy that God had upon the elect is a mercy towards them from everlasting unto everlasting Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

This constituted them the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Now with this in mind, men and women who are condemned already which believe not Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These cannot be of the elect, the vessels of mercy, because they won't be condemned while in unbelief since God consigned them in unbelief for the purpose of having mercy upon them Rom 11:32.

 

[Arial]

The mercy that God had upon the elect is a mercy towards them from everlasting unto everlasting Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

This constituted them the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Now with this in mind, men and women who are condemned already which believe not Jn 3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These cannot be of the elect, the vessels of mercy, because they won't be condemned while in unbelief since God consigned them in unbelief for the purpose of having mercy upon them Rom 11:32.

First logical fallacy: Equivocation.

The argument equivocates on the word "condemned."

• In John 3:18 "condemnation" refers to judicial standing before God in time---the unbeliever stands under wrath.
• In Romans 11:32 "consigned to unbelief" refers to historical-redemptive ordering, not the absence of condemnation.

Your argument silently switches meanings and in doing so it allows you to smuggle in the idea that elect unbelievers cannot be condemned in any sense, and the texts never state that.

Rule 4.4 invoked
Members who have been called out for a logical fallacy are expected to address that specific charge in good faith, either conceding the point or demonstrating that no fallacy occurred by clarifying their reasoning. Unless the charge is addressed, the member may not continue participating in that thread. Ignoring or dismissing the allegation without engagement undermines meaningful dialogue. That being said, his post may continue engaging other points, as long as it includes an acknowledgement and resolution of the fallacy accusation.

 

[brightfame52]

First logical fallacy: Equivocation.

The argument equivocates on the word "condemned."

• In John 3:18 "condemnation" refers to judicial standing before God in time---the unbeliever stands under wrath.
• In Romans 11:32 "consigned to unbelief" refers to historical-redemptive ordering, not the absence of condemnation.

Your argument silently switches meanings and in doing so it allows you to smuggle in the idea that elect unbelievers cannot be condemned in any sense, and the texts never state that.

Rule 4.4 invoked
Members who have been called out for a logical fallacy are expected to address that specific charge in good faith, either conceding the point or demonstrating that no fallacy occurred by clarifying their reasoning. Unless the charge is addressed, the member may not continue participating in that thread. Ignoring or dismissing the allegation without engagement undermines meaningful dialogue. That being said, his post may continue engaging other points, as long as it includes an acknowledgement and resolution of the fallacy accusation.

The elect have no condemnation because Christ was condemned in their place and stead as I told you a million times. The unbelieving elect person has been reconciled to God by His Death while an enemy Rom 5:10

. 10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now equivocate that and explain how the elect are reconciled [in favor with God] while unbelieving enemies by His death, and be under condemnation as a unbeliever Jn 3:18 at the same time.

 

[atpollard]

The elect have no condemnation because Christ was condemned in their place and stead as I told you a million times. The unbelieving elect person has been reconciled to God by His Death while an enemy Rom 5:10

. 10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now equivocate that and explain how the elect are reconciled [in favor with God] while unbelieving enemies by His death, and be under condemnation as an unbeliever Jn 3:18 at the same time.

Whether or not I agree with your arguments (frankly, I am personally exhausted by this whole discussion) … GOOD FOR YOU for responding to the charge of “equivocation” with both logical and scriptural support in your response!

 

[Arial]

The elect have no condemnation because Christ was condemned in their place and stead as I told you a million times. The unbelieving elect person has been reconciled to God by His Death while an enemy Rom 5:10

. 10 For if, when we[believers] were enemies[unbelievers], we were reconciled[past tense] to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now equivocate that and explain how the elect are reconciled [in favor with God] while unbelieving enemies by His death, and be under condemnation as a unbeliever Jn 3:18 at the same time.

You have not proven the allegation of an equivocation fallacy to be false. Not only is it still present in the above post, but it is also even more clear.
Definition of "equivocation fallacy": Equivication happens when a key term shifts meaning-argument making the conclusion appear valid when it isn't.

Here is how the switch is being made:

• Reconciled in Romans 5:10 refers to objective, accomplished reconciliation (Christ's death securing peace)
• Condemned in John 3:18 refers to present judicial standing under wrath due to unbelief.

Your reply treats reconciliation as eliminating condemnation in every sense, and that is not how the terms function in the texts. Your argument assumes that if reconciliation is accomplished, condemnation cannot exist in any sense.

Rule 4.4 still in effect. Prove the allegation of an equivocation fallacy is incorrect. Don't simply repeat your position.

 

[Arial]

Whether or not I agree with your arguments (frankly, I am personally exhausted by this whole discussion) … GOOD FOR YOU for responding to the charge of “equivocation” with both logical and scriptural support in your response!

Really? He just equivocated some more. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you are not aware of the position he is trying to promote. To say that Christ saves sinners while in unbelief is technically correct. However, that is not what he means. He means the same thing as he means when he promotes eternal justification. That the elect is always saved and are never under condemnation.

 

[brightfame52]

Whether or not I agree with your arguments (frankly, I am personally exhausted by this whole discussion) … GOOD FOR YOU for responding to the charge of “equivocation” with both logical and scriptural support in your response!

I respond to posts all the time, but that doesnt ensure the person asking is going to agree. So once I respond, either they agree or they dont, then we move on.