Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief!

[makesends]

So why the question ?

Romans 5: 13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 5: 13 "To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come."

Okay and ?

 

[makesends]

Okay and ?

You said the law was in effect way before Moses. Yet you also quoted it saying,
"13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

Verse 13 is rather obviously referring to "The Law" (of Moses), yet you say that The Law WAS in effect way before Moses. I agree with you that there was law, (i.e. moral commandment and conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but that is not 'the law'.

 

[brightfame52]

You said the law was in effect way before Moses

yeah

. Yet you also quoted it saying,
"13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"

ok and

Verse 13 is rather obviously referring to "The Law" (of Moses), yet you say that The Law WAS in effect way before Moses. I agree with you that there was law, (i.e. moral commandment and conscience and a sense of right and wrong, but that is not 'the law'.

Yeah there was law. It was the Law at adams creation. I believe it was the same moral law of the ten commandments, couched in that law. The sabbath day was began Gen 2:1-4


Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 ;And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

When Moses was given the Moral code reference is made back to creation for the sanctified seventh day

Ex 20 8-11

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Do you believe Cain broke 6th commandment?

13 Thou shalt not kill.

Did eve sin against the 10th commandmet and covet ?

The gentiles had the law written in their conscience Rom 2 15

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

Law here has the definite article " the law" so I believe its Gods moral law of the 10 commandments.

 

[brightfame52]

See the Truth be told, unbelief is the consequence of being already condemned. Faith in Christ will not be given to them whom Christ didn't come to save and whom He did not lay down His Life for, namely the non sheep, since its expressly stated He came to lay down His Life for the Sheep Jn 10:10-11

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The Sheep] might have life, and that they[The Sheep] might have it more abundantly.

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

So unto the Sheep it will be given unto them to Believe on His Name Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Why ? Because being of His Sheep He lay down His Life for them and satisfied for them Gods Law and Justice, hence the Law doesn't condemned them, and they cant be of them whom are already condemned, having a right therefor to believe on His Name Jn 1:12 ! The non sheep have not this right and so are already condemned, which their unbelief gives evidence of! 1

 

[brightfame52]

No unbelief isnt the cause of ones condemnation, but their condemnation is the cause of their unbelief ! Jn 3 :18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those not believing here in this verse and context will never become believers but will remain unbelievers, since they werent Sheep for whom Christ died. Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Now those believing in this verse and context do so because they were never condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead, He was made a curse for them Gal 3:13

That curse He became for them He died for was because of their condemnation, which was due for their sins. So they weren't never condemned already !

 

[makesends]

No unbelief isnt the cause of ones condemnation, but their condemnation is the cause of their unbelief ! Jn 3 :18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Those not believing here in this verse and context will never become believers but will remain unbelievers, since they werent Sheep for whom Christ died. Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Now those believing in this verse and context do so because they were never condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead, He was made a curse for them Gal 3:13

That curse He became for them He died for was because of their condemnation, which was due for their sins. So they weren't never condemned already !

This last paragraph. The first and second sentences contradict one another. You admit to their condemnation, but then say that they were never condemned.

 

[brightfame52]

This last paragraph. The first and second sentences contradict one another. You admit to their condemnation, but then say that they were never condemned.

Its only seemingly a contradiction, you see the elect in Adam did truly incur condemnation Rom 5:18 however the condemnation they incurred was laid upon Christ, so that made them Justified from it, and God looked to Christ for the payment of their condemnation and not them. It would be unjust for God to charge them with it and their surety Christ with it at the same time.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?​

Jn 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Now the sin of the world did involves unbelief. Eve didn't believe the truth of God. God had said in the day that you eat you shall surely die. Observe Gen 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now Gen 3:2-4

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


as a result of unbelief:


5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

[brightfame52]

Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief ?

Now unbelief and disobedience are relatively the same thing. Unbelief is called not obeying here 2 Thess 1:8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Now to obey not is disobedience

Jn 3:36

He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Believes not here in the greek is the word ἀπειθέω:

I disobey, rebel, am disloyal, refuse conformity

Now disobedience the parent sin in Adam Rom 5:19 which began with eve not believing God because of the serpent's seduction, hence she believed his [the serpents lie] over Gods Truth. Recall what God had said what would happen if they ate of that particular tree, that "ye shall surely die Gen 2:16-17 and the serpent said to her the opposite to Gods Truth Gen 3:1-6. This is the beginning of the parent sin of unbelief/disobedience which all by nature are imprisoned to Rom 11:31-32

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So now to say Christ didn't die for unbelief, is to deny Christ died for man's sin in adam, which contradicts scripture truth Rom 5:15-16

15 But not as the offence [unbelief/disobedience], so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned[disobedience/unbelief], so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Christ took away the sin of the world Jn 1:29, but if they who He died for are condemned for unbelief, Jn 1:29 is a lie !

 

[brightfame52]

Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience, and here's why ! Christ death was a covenantal death, according to the stipulations of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20 which is also known in time as the New Covenant or Testament Matt 26:28. Now one of the promises of this death is this Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Well unbelief is a unrighteousness, so God has promised to be merciful to their unrighteousness/unbelief. Same as in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So for God to condemn any sinner Christ died for, for unbelief makes God a liar !

 

[Arial]

Now the sinners Christ died for cannot be charged or have laid to their account unbelief/disobedience, and here's why ! Christ death was a covenantal death, according to the stipulations of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20 which is also known in time as the New Covenant or Testament Matt 26:28. Now one of the promises of this death is this Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Well unbelief is a unrighteousness, so God has promised to be merciful to their unrighteousness/unbelief. Same as in Rom 11:32

He is merciful to their unrighteousness. But mercy does not negate guilt. it provides Christ. Forgiveness is covenantally applied in union with Him, not eternally assumed apart from faith. If the unrighteousness were not real, was not subject to judgement and condemnation, then there would be no necessity of faith, no necessity of union with the Son. The biblical warnings against unbelief would be incoherent. Heb 8:12 promises a non-remembrance of sins to those who are members of the NC by union with Christ through faith, not an eternal justification apart from faith.

Romans11:32
32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

This is not about justification. It is about the mystery of Israel's salvation. As such it cannot be used, as you are using it, as a proof text for eternal justification. And neither can the Heb passages.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So for God to condemn any sinner Christ died for, for unbelief makes God a liar !

Well, he doesn't and no one said he did. To say that a sinner does not need forgiveness and union with Christ through faith in order to be forgiven, is what would make God a liar.

 

[makesends]

He is merciful to their unrighteousness. But mercy does not negate guilt it provides Christ. Forgiveness is covenantally applied in union with Him, not eternally assumed apart from faith. If the unrighteousness were not real, was not subject to judgement and condemnation, then there would be no necessity of faith, no necessity of union with the Son. The biblical warnings against unbelief would be incoherent. Heb 8:12 promises a non-remembrance of sins to those who are members of the NC by union with Christ through faith, not an eternal justification apart from faith.

Romans11:32
32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

This is not about justification. It is about the mystery of Israel's salvation. As such it cannot be used, as you are using it, as a proof text for eternal justification. And neither can the Heb passages.

Well, he doesn't and no one said he did. To say that a sinner does not need forgiveness and union with Christ through faith in order to be forgiven, is what would make God a liar.

This has a lot of backbone to it. It gives a good structure, definition/use of, "faith". It demonstrates the validity of faith that cannot be generated by man, but only by God himself. It demonstrates our dependence on him for any good in ourselves.

This makes it obvious that Christ's substitution for our sin and guilt is altogether part of the substance of our faith. This is not just God doing his thing so that we can do ours. This shows us being "in him".

 

[brightfame52]

The elect of God, like all men are naturally born into this world in unbelief, for Paul writing of the elect from out of both the jews and gentiles writes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Yet God had a merciful purpose for doing that to the elect, not to condemn them in that state, but the very opposite, to have mercy upon them for being in that state. Understand as well, that the word unbelief here also is rendered and means disobedience. Its the greek word apeitheia. The word apeithēs means:

impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will, disbelief (obstinate and rebellious)

Its this state God imprisoned the elect in for the purpose of mercy!

 

[Arial]

The elect of God, like all men are naturally born into this world in unbelief, for Paul writing of the elect from out of both the jews and gentiles writes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Yet God had a merciful purpose for doing that to the elect, not to condemn them in that state, but the very opposite, to have mercy upon them for being in that state.

On the surface that first statement sounds correct, but it is highly unlikely that you have changed your position on eternal justification. I suspect you are simply trying to state it in softer tones. That, or you are contradicting yourself. Romans 11:32 does not teach that God placed the elect into unbelief as an act of mercy, or that unbelief itself serves a merciful purpose. Rather, God judicially consigned all to disobedience in Adam, so that mercy would be shown in deliverance from that state, not in leaving them uncondemned within it.

Unbelief is never treated in Scripture as a merciful condition or a means of grace. It is the very state from which the elect must be rescued through calling, regeneration, and faith. To say God had a merciful purpose for doing that confuses God’s permission of sin with His redemptive action against it.

Understand as well, that the word unbelief here also is rendered and means disobedience. Its the greek word apeitheia. The word apeithēs means:

impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will, disbelief (obstinate and rebellious)

Completely irrelevant to the conversation and bolsters your position in no way.

impersuasible, not compliant, disobedient, contumacious

obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will, disbelief (obstinate and rebellious)

Its this state God imprisoned the elect in for the purpose of mercy!

This is a direct contradiction of Scripture. It attributes to God a positive purpose in producing moral rebellion as an instrument of mercy.

You are saying that God imprisoned the elect in obstinate rebellion---in order to be merciful to them. What them would that do to Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Your assertion in that case, would have God actively imprisoning the elect in obstinate rebellion (which constitutes the domain of darkness) and then God rescues them from a condition he intentionally place them in as an act of mercy.

Scripture teaches that God permits and judges unbelief and mercy rescues out of unbelief.

 

[brightfame52]

On the surface that first statement sounds correct, but it is highly unlikely that you have changed your position on eternal justification.

Thats a different discussion so Im going to stop this right here.

 

[brightfame52]

You are saying that God imprisoned the elect in obstinate rebellion---in order to be merciful to them

Yes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[elect jews and gentiles] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This refers only to the vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

All the elect vessels of mercy were subject to disobedience in the fall in order for God through Christ might make known the riches of His Glory, which was afore prepared unto glory

He has Mercy on them when He regenerates them Tirus 3:5

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, an, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Thats when they become believers , because God had mercy on them.

But with the vessels of wrath, that mercy is witheld and they die in their sins in unbelief, justly. But thats a different subject.

God does not condemn the elect for unbelief, He has mercy on them, for Christs Sake

 

[Arial]

Yes Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[elect jews and gentiles] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This refers only to the vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23

23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

All the elect vessels of mercy were subject to disobedience in the fall in order for God through Christ might make known the riches of His Glory, which was afore prepared unto glory

All you have done there is repeat yourself and pay no attention to the fact that I had already addressed your interpretation and shown that your assertion cannot be correct. So, address this: Post 115

This is a direct contradiction of Scripture. It attributes to God a positive purpose in producing moral rebellion as an instrument of mercy.

You are saying that God imprisoned the elect in obstinate rebellion---in order to be merciful to them. What them would that do to Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Your assertion in that case, would have God actively imprisoning the elect in obstinate rebellion (which constitutes the domain of darkness) and then God rescues them from a condition he intentionally place them in as an act of mercy.

Scripture teaches that God permits and judges unbelief and mercy rescues out of unbelief.

You are letting your preferred belief that the elect were saved before they came to faith interpret scripture instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture. Plain and simple.

 

[Arial]

Thats a different discussion so Im going to stop this right here.

That may be. I didn't realize you still had this other thread basically on the same subject still going. Nevertheless, what I said about the post I was responding to was about the post I was responding to---so that excuse out the window.

 

[brightfame52]

All you have done there is repeat yourself and pay no attention to the fact that I had already addressed your interpretation

Okay, you have a right to do that, but that doesnt change my interpretation as you call it. God doesnt condemn the elect for unbelief, or for any sin for that matter, all their sinfulness, disobedience, iniquity and rebellion etc He will be merciful to them Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

Thats the benefit of being vessels of mercy