Scientific Concordism vs Divine Accommodation

[GeneZ]

My personal thoughts (continued)

My go-to reference on this is by Dallas Theological Seminary evangelical OT scholar Gordon Johnston, who I've had the privilege of discussing this with:

Johnston, Gordon H. "Genesis 1 and Ancient Egyptian creation myths." BIBLIOTHECA SACRA-DALLAS- 165.658 (2008): 178.4

Johnston notes three types of parallels: lexical, literary/structural, and thematic/conceptual.

As Johnston states, "The number of parallels and degree of correspondence between Genesis 1 and major Egyptian creation myths is remarkable. It is difficult to dismiss them as mere coincidence." Johnston quotes another scholar as saying, "There exists such a magnitude of parallels that it could not be by mere chance." And quotes yet another scholar who states, "The similarities in detail and structure are too close to be accidental."

But far from being an endorsement of Egyptian paganism, Johnston concludes that Genesis 1 is a theological polemic (attack) on ancient Egyptian pagan creation myths.

This makes sense in a lot of ways, even by traditional views that Moses received/wrote the first five books of the Bible. The Hebrews would have been heavily indoctrinated in Egyptian paganism during their 400 or so years in slavery. It would make sense that this indoctrination would need to be directly repudiated.

In fact, Genesis 1 gives every appearance of being a point by point rebuttal and refutation of ancient Egyptian pagan creation myths. Even the order of events is often similar. For example:

Hermopolis tradition:

Memphis tradition:

There are also thematic/conceptual parallels. For example, consider the parallels in the opening three verses of Gen 1.1-3:

Do you know what that is? Some compiled data and gave their opinion. So much of it in the beginning is wrong and was basing their opinion upon (most likely) having a weak Christian background that was lacking in understanding the Scriptures.


I can not copy and paste when you use that huge format. But, this much I will address.

"Breath/Wind of Elohim moves on the waters."​

That is not what the Hebrew tells us. That is not what Moses wrote to the Hebrew thinking mind.

The Spirit of God was warming the waters as a hen incubates her eggs. Why? The earth had been judged with a flood and when light was removed it had become a giant ice pack! The waters were the result of ice melting!

That dissertation was done by someone who was following some conventional watered down teachings. And, it shows.

And, God did not "create" light for the first three days. God was the Light! It is shone in Isaiah and Revelation in the future there will be no more sun, but the Lord will be the Light!

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: ​

but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory." Isaiah 60:19​

​

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord ​

God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever." Revelation 22:5​

Its a misleading report.. and those yet lacking in having enough solid teaching will naively believe it to be true and factual.

 

[TB2]

Do you know what that is? Some compiled data and gave their opinion. So much of it in the beginning is wrong and was basing their opinion upon (most likely) having a weak Christian background that was lacking in understanding the Scriptures.


I can not copy and paste when you use that huge format. But, this much I will address.

"Breath/Wind of Elohim moves on the waters."​

That is not what the Hebrew tells us. That is not what Moses wrote to the Hebrew thinking mind.

That dissertation was done by someone who was following some conventional watered down teachings. And, it shows.

Apologies that I can't find a direct link, but when you have the opportunity copy paste the reference into Google Scholar to find a pdf of the article that you can download and read in full:

Johnston, Gordon H. "Genesis 1 and Ancient Egyptian creation myths." BIBLIOTHECA SACRA-DALLAS- 165.658 (2008): 178.4

 

[GeneZ]

Apologies that I can't find a direct link, but when you have the opportunity copy paste the reference into Google Scholar to find a pdf of the article that you can download and read in full:

Johnston, Gordon H. "Genesis 1 and Ancient Egyptian creation myths." BIBLIOTHECA SACRA-DALLAS- 165.658 (2008): 178.4

That report is pretentious and misleads.
Its directed towards the doctrinally naive who are impressed when they see letters after a man's name.

My pastor graduated from the same seminary with honors.... and he studied directly under Lewis Sperry Chafer.
He would warn us how the school was no longer what it used to be, and too many teachings had become compromised
as time passed.

 

[TB2]

That report is pretentious and misleads.

?

 

[David1701]

I understand the reticence because it seems like it should be the other way around that Genesis precedes the Egyptian. But again there are historical and biblical difficulties with maintaining this. First, as I noted, the Pyramid Texts are the oldest religious texts in the world and predate the Exodus (and Genesis revelation Moses received by the traditional view) by a couple thousand years or so. Second, it's recognized that Genesis is a theological polemic (attack) against Egyptian paganism which would be impossible unless the Egyptian pagan ideas existed first. Third, it makes sense that after 400 years of indoctrination the Hebrews would need the theological correction provided by Genesis 1.

This is not the only place we see this. Our great God seems to be a God of polemics who says "come let us reason together" and who is constantly demonstrating He is the one true God. The plagues of Exodus are another example of God's polemic attack that struck at the heart of Egyptian paganism ("You worship the Nile, I'll turn it to blood.... you worship the sun god Ra, I'll darken it").

And the greatest polemic of all: THE CROSS ("You value wisdom and strength? I'll give you foolishness and weakness and still confound your worldly wisdom with the foolishness of God on a cross; glory in shame; victory in death). Amen!!

A polemic does not necessitate that the opposing position existed first! If a Christian writes a polemic against Islam, does that mean that Islam predated Christianity? No, of course not.

The narratives in Genesis would have been passed down from generation to generation, before they were written down.

 

[GeneZ]

?

Yes!

Many in high positions today have were promoted and gotten there to keep us dumbed down.

That teaching was geared not to challenge one to grow in understanding... but to reach those who are weak in understanding, and wishing to keep them there.

We are in spiritual warfare. Its very real. All weaknesses will be exploited by the enemy.

Look at Washington DC! Look at how so many idiots have been mysteriously promoted to positions of power and are a perversion of what our nation is supposed to be. Satan is the prince of this world! He wants to control all thinking wherever he can.

I have known a PhD seminary candidate personally... It was scary to see how he was turning out. Believers naively want
to put their trust in such things just like many Catholics blindly want to accept the Biblically incompetent pope as a savior.

We have to put our trust in the Word of God...
if you can find it today.

We are being dumbed down all the time. Its how Satan operates.

 

[TB2]

We have to put our trust in the Word of God...
if you can find it today.

I know Dr Gordon Johnston personally. He is an OT scholar at Dallas Theological Seminary (you don't get more conservative than that) and staunch defender of biblical inspiration and inerrancy

 

[TB2]

A polemic does not necessitate that the opposing position existed first! If a Christian writes a polemic against Islam, does that mean that Islam predated Christianity? No, of course not.

The narratives in Genesis would have been passed down from generation to generation, before they were written down.

A polemic is a counter argument that requires the opponent argument to already exist. A Christian writing a polemic against Islam is still writing in response to Islam *after* it exists.

 

[GeneZ]

I know Dr Gordon Johnston personally. He is an OT scholar at Dallas Theological Seminary (you don't get more conservative than that) and staunch defender of biblical inspiration and inerrancy

Well then...

With his qualifications he should be better teaching the Hebrew meaning concerning in what manner the Spirit was hovering over the waters. With greater detail, as to be understanding it properly will require. And, we have no idea what the Egyptian exegesis would be rendered as.

There is so much already known to be passed on to know, and a dearth of providing it today.

Paul said it. Too many Christians do not want sound teaching!

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number
of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2 Timothy 4:3

 

[TB2]

With his qualifications he should be better teaching the Hebrew meaning concerning in what manner the Spirit was hovering over the waters

That's actually his specialty. The Hebrew language.

 

[GeneZ]

That's actually his specialty. The Hebrew language.

The Spirit was "hovering" over the waters. Why?

This means that the divine revelation meant to clarify to us that the Holy Spirit was sitting on the earth from the beginning exactly like the chicken which sits on her eggs incubating them till they hatch. It is known that when the chicken hover over her eggs, she pulls out the feathers of her chest to allow her warm skin to be in direct contact with the eggs to warm them, and to keep the pulled feather as an insulator for the nest.
https://suscopts.org/resources/literature/1729/the-spirit-of-god-was-hovering-over-the-face-of-th/


Why was the Spirit warming the waters in Genesis 1:2?

Because previous to that the waters were frozen over from the absence of light!

The prehistoric earth had been judged and flooded.. and then frozen over!

The Spirit was melting that solid pack of ice into raging waters.


Raging waters

But the earth had become desolate and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (literal translation of Gen. 1:2).

Next, we have “darkness,” which means the absence of light and heat. The Hebrew word choshek means “a darkness that keeps out light,” and therefore it keeps out heat. The word for “deep” is tehom, which means “raging waters, disturbed waters, stormy waters.” This indicates that raging water was used to destroy the earth. The water was then frozen. We know this because the word for “water” is hamajim, which is “melted water.”
“And the darkness was upon the face of the deep” indicates some of the destruction of the pre-Adamic earth’s surface by the flooding of raging water. Later on. the earth will have another flood, and in that one civilisation will be wiped out, but the earth will be preserved (Gen. 6-8).


Restoration

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (Gen. 1:2b)

When a hopeless situation exists, only God can solve it. ruach elohim is correctly translated, “the Spirit of God” (the Holy Spirit). God had the only solution to the chaotic condition of the earth (John 6:63; Psa. 104:30). Because the earth continued to be packed in ice and could not change or improve itself, God the Holy Spirit moved upon the earth, and grace changed chaos into blessing. What God did for the earth in restoration, the Holy Spirit does for the individual in regeneration!

The word “moved” is rachaph and literally means “to incubate.” Birds are said “to brood” over their eggs: when warmth from the mother’s body incubates the eg, out pops a baby whatever it is - sparrow, swan or buzzard! In Deuteronomy 32:11, rachaph is the verb used for a bird brooding over her young to warm them and to give them vitality. What this word really implies is this: remember, darkness covered the earth - no light, no heat! God the Holy Spirit didn’t “move,” but He “provided heat.” The best translation is: “He incubated the ice pack.” The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted. "

That last section was taken from the book .."Creation Chaos and Restoration" by my pastor R.B. Thieme, Jr.
https://www.rbthieme.org/Publications/creationchaosandrestoration.html

grace and peace!

 

[TB2]

What this word really implies is this: remember, darkness covered the earth - no light, no heat! God the Holy Spirit didn’t “move,” but He “provided heat.” The best translation is: “He incubated the ice pack.” The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted. "

You simply cannot get all that out of v2. Ice? Radiation? Ice pack melted?

 

[GeneZ]

You simply cannot get all that out of v2. Ice? Radiation? Ice pack melted?

Inference is indicated when understanding the Hebrew, and not some denatured 'white bread' mainstream translation.

God wants us to think! Not be like we are computers downloading software to play it back without having to analyze and think.
Directions on the road that leads to Life is not always spelled out in black and white for us.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more ​

and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

​

Philippians 1:9​

​

Insight will be required if we are going to explore and pioneer the unknown frontiers in the Scriptures. Because, there
are buried treasures out there to be uncovered and found.

Not all things in Scripture are to be self evident and on the surface.

I will give you hidden treasures,​

riches stored in secret places,​

so that you may know that I am the Lord,​

the God of Israel, who summons you by name." Isaiah 45:3​

​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, ​

so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in ​

order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in ​

whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:2-3​

Pioneers usually have to go it alone, or with only a small number of people who remove themselves from the staid folks back home,
while the staid folks back home might feel threatened if asked to join you....

That is why we see resistance by some who do not want to think outside of the comfortable walls of their denominational tradition that has walled them in.

So be it...

 

[TB2]

Inference is indicated.

God wants us to think! Not be like we are computers downloading software to play it back without having to analyze and think.
Directions on the road that leads to Life is not always spelled out in black and white for us.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more ​

and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

​

Philippians 1:9​

​

Insight will be required if we are going to explore and pioneer the unknown frontiers in the Scriptures. Because, there
are buried treasures out there to be uncovered and found.

Not all things in Scripture are to be self evident and on the surface.

I will give you hidden treasures,​

riches stored in secret places,​

so that you may know that I am the Lord,​

the God of Israel, who summons you by name." Isaiah 45:3​

​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, ​

so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in ​

order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in ​

whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:2-3​

Pioneers usually have to go it alone, or with only a small number of people who remove themselves from the staid folks back home,
while the staid folks back home might feel threatened if asked to join you....

That is why we see resistance by some who do not want to think outside of the comfortable walls of their denominational tradition that has walled them in.

So be it...

I can tell you right now an ancient Israelite living in the Ancient Near East would not read Genesis 1.2 and come to the modern sounding conclusion that the "Holy Spirit....provided heat... and incubated the ice pack.” And "The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted."

For starters there's no mention of ice! Much less packed ice melt! Second, they wouldn't know what "radiation" means. Third, there's no mention of heat. And a whole host of other things.

You really think the entire world's OT experts are THAT wrong?

 

[GeneZ]

I can tell you right now an ancient Israelite living in the Ancient Near East would not read Genesis 1.2 and come to the modern sounding conclusion that the "Holy Spirit....provided heat... and incubated the ice pack.” And "The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted."

For starters there's no mention of ice! Much less packed ice melt! Second, they wouldn't know what "radiation" means. Third, there's no mention of heat. And a whole host of other things.

You really think the entire world's OT experts are THAT wrong?

Entire? No... Not by a long shot.

The timid conformists? Yes.

Insult intended.

Too many non thinkers cause an established defense organization to become defeated. Ephesians 6:12

No innovation?
Defeat becomes inevitable.

In Christ ...............

 

[David1701]

A polemic is a counter argument that requires the opponent argument to already exist. A Christian writing a polemic against Islam is still writing in response to Islam *after* it exists.

Just as the written narrative, in Genesis, can be used as a polemic against paganism. The paganism existed before the narrative was written, although the oral narrative (of Genesis) existed before Egyptian paganism.

 

[TB2]

Entire? No... Not by a long shot.

The timid conformists? Yes.

Insult intended.

Too many non thinkers cause an established defense organization to become defeated. Ephesians 6:12

No innovation?
Defeat becomes inevitable.

In Christ ...............

With all due respect, RB Thieme Jr is in error and taking HUGE liberties with the text. You say this is the literal translation:

"But the earth had become desolate and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (literal translation of Gen. 1:2)."

But you say this is the "true" meaning of that short little verse:

"But the earth had become desolate and empty; and darkness [Next, we have “darkness,” which means the absence of light and heat. The Hebrew word choshek means “a darkness that keeps out light,” and therefore it keeps out heat] was upon the face of the deep.[The word for “deep” is tehom, which means “raging waters, disturbed waters, stormy waters.” This indicates that raging water was used to destroy the earth. The water was then frozen. We know this because the word for “water” is hamajim, which is “melted water.”] [“And the darkness was upon the face of the deep” indicates some of the destruction of the pre-Adamic earth’s surface by the flooding of raging water. Later on. the earth will have another flood, and in that one civilisation will be wiped out, but the earth will be preserved (Gen. 6-8).] And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." [The Spirit was "hovering" over the waters. Why? This means that the divine revelation meant to clarify to us that the Holy Spirit was sitting on the earth from the beginning exactly like the chicken which sits on her eggs incubating them till they hatch. It is known that when the chicken hover over her eggs, she pulls out the feathers of her chest to allow her warm skin to be in direct contact with the eggs to warm them, and to keep the pulled feather as an insulator for the nest. Why was the Spirit warming the waters in Genesis 1:2 Because previous to that the waters were frozen over from the absence of light! The prehistoric earth had been judged and flooded.. and then frozen over! The Spirit was melting that solid pack of ice into raging waters. When a hopeless situation exists, only God can solve it. ruach elohim is correctly translated, “the Spirit of God” (the Holy Spirit). God had the only solution to the chaotic condition of the earth (John 6:63; Psa. 104:30). Because the earth continued to be packed in ice and could not change or improve itself, God the Holy Spirit moved upon the earth, and grace changed chaos into blessing. What God did for the earth in restoration, the Holy Spirit does for the individual in regeneration! The word “moved” is rachaph and literally means “to incubate.” Birds are said “to brood” over their eggs: when warmth from the mother’s body incubates the eg, out pops a baby whatever it is - sparrow, swan or buzzard! In Deuteronomy 32:11, rachaph is the verb used for a bird brooding over her young to warm them and to give them vitality. What this word really implies is this: remember, darkness covered the earth - no light, no heat! God the Holy Spirit didn’t “move,” but He “provided heat.” The best translation is: “He incubated the ice pack.” The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted."

I'm sorry, this goes WAY, WAY, WAY beyond what Scripture says. Literally anyone can do the same thing and make up all sorts of outlandish speculative backstories that are not supported by the text. I am having trouble taking this seriously, and believing that you seriously expect everyone to come to this same conclusion from an objective reading of the Hebrew. This is not "resistance to thinking outside the comfortable walls of denominational traditions." This is outlandish, imaginative creative *invention* not supported by the biblical text.

Let's just take one word: Hammayim = "of the waters." It does NOT mean "melted water." You can't just change the lexical definitions of Hebrew words willy nilly. There was no "ice pack" that the Holy Spirit is "incubating." The text says "of the waters" (hammayim), it doesn't say ice (qerach).

 

[GeneZ]

With all due respect, RB Thieme Jr is in error and taking HUGE liberties with the text. You say this is the literal translation:

"But the earth had become desolate and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters (literal translation of Gen. 1:2)."

But you say this is the "true" meaning of that short little verse:

"But the earth had become desolate and empty; and darkness [Next, we have “darkness,” which means the absence of light and heat. The Hebrew word choshek means “a darkness that keeps out light,” and therefore it keeps out heat] was upon the face of the deep.[The word for “deep” is tehom, which means “raging waters, disturbed waters, stormy waters.” This indicates that raging water was used to destroy the earth. The water was then frozen. We know this because the word for “water” is hamajim, which is “melted water.”] [“And the darkness was upon the face of the deep” indicates some of the destruction of the pre-Adamic earth’s surface by the flooding of raging water. Later on. the earth will have another flood, and in that one civilisation will be wiped out, but the earth will be preserved (Gen. 6-8).] And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." [The Spirit was "hovering" over the waters. Why? This means that the divine revelation meant to clarify to us that the Holy Spirit was sitting on the earth from the beginning exactly like the chicken which sits on her eggs incubating them till they hatch. It is known that when the chicken hover over her eggs, she pulls out the feathers of her chest to allow her warm skin to be in direct contact with the eggs to warm them, and to keep the pulled feather as an insulator for the nest. Why was the Spirit warming the waters in Genesis 1:2 Because previous to that the waters were frozen over from the absence of light! The prehistoric earth had been judged and flooded.. and then frozen over! The Spirit was melting that solid pack of ice into raging waters. When a hopeless situation exists, only God can solve it. ruach elohim is correctly translated, “the Spirit of God” (the Holy Spirit). God had the only solution to the chaotic condition of the earth (John 6:63; Psa. 104:30). Because the earth continued to be packed in ice and could not change or improve itself, God the Holy Spirit moved upon the earth, and grace changed chaos into blessing. What God did for the earth in restoration, the Holy Spirit does for the individual in regeneration! The word “moved” is rachaph and literally means “to incubate.” Birds are said “to brood” over their eggs: when warmth from the mother’s body incubates the eg, out pops a baby whatever it is - sparrow, swan or buzzard! In Deuteronomy 32:11, rachaph is the verb used for a bird brooding over her young to warm them and to give them vitality. What this word really implies is this: remember, darkness covered the earth - no light, no heat! God the Holy Spirit didn’t “move,” but He “provided heat.” The best translation is: “He incubated the ice pack.” The Spirit of God radiated heat, producing melted water.” When the Spirit applied heat, the ice pack melted."

I'm sorry, this goes WAY, WAY, WAY beyond what Scripture says. Literally anyone can do the same thing and make up all sorts of outlandish speculative backstories that are not supported by the text. I am having trouble taking this seriously, and believing that you seriously expect everyone to come to this same conclusion from an objective reading of the Hebrew. This is not "resistance to thinking outside the comfortable walls of denominational traditions." This is outlandish, imaginative creative *invention* not supported by the biblical text.

Let's just take one word: Hammayim = "of the waters." It does NOT mean "melted water." You can't just change the lexical definitions of Hebrew words willy nilly. There was no "ice pack" that the Holy Spirit is "incubating." The text says "of the waters" (hammayim), it doesn't say ice (qerach).

Why say ice, when its already been melted? Why the need for heating the waters in the first place? Hmmmmm?

Hint! Previously there was the absence of light! Not warmth.


No, you are wrong... Its been a long held view by Bible scholars of the past who in their time did not know about the fossil remains and had no battle with secular evolutionists. No.. the Gap Fact was not a Johnny come lately interpretation.

Other excellent scholars have also concluded with the findings.

Like everything else.. in this time of the pressures of spiritual warfare certain minds will fail to grasp why things were being said, and will present themselves as roadblocks to understanding.

This not some new theory that Darwinism spurred on, as some wish to have us believe.

It was seen by Bible scholars many years before Darwin was born.
Darwinism merely motivated the revival of the teaching after many were, unaware or ignoring it for years.

Documentation compiled by a scientist/theologian..
https://custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

grace and peace ............

 

[TB2]

Why say ice, when its already been melted?

You're assuming there was ice that melted. Scripture simply says there was water

Why the need for heating the waters in the first place? Hmmmmm?

You're the one who reads the need for heat to melt ice into the text.

Hint! Previously there was the absence of light! Not warmth.

Gen 1.2 is not a science lesson but describing the well known Ancient Near East belief of primeval waters of chaos believed to exist prior to creation.

No, you are wrong... Its been a long held view by Bible scholars of the past who in their time did not know about the fossil remains and had no battle with secular evolutionists. No.. the Gap Fact was not a Johnny come lately interpretation.

I'm not even talking about the gap theory, but all the imaginative invention that's being done

And what does it matter whether someone believes in it or not? Do you think this is a salvation issue?

 

[GeneZ]

Gen 1.2 is not a science lesson but describing the well known Ancient Near East belief of primeval waters of chaos believed to exist prior to creation.

Demons can teach the pagans things and have, and still do.

We must also keep in mind, Angels were present and watched the prehistoric world get judged.