Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[Ghada]

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

The resolution of Romans 4 justification by faith without works, and James 2 justification by works with faith, is found by who is being spoken about and to: Newborn babes without works vs converted Christians with works.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The context in Romans 4 is about being newborn babes in Christ: It is when the sinner is newly forgiven of all past works and forgotten by God, as though they were never done:

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Likewise, as newborn babes, the newly justified convert does not have any works to be judged by.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There is no law against any newborn babe, because there are no works to judge by law. The law is only made for works. Where no law is, there is no transgression, and where no works are, there is no law.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

There is no law for newborn babes, where there are no works, but there is law for grown children doing works against the law.

Christians doing sinful works are judged by the law of Christ as transgressors of the world. Having been newborn babes does not justify any child of disobedience doing evil, whether from the womb or after faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Without works, faith only saves the newborn babe. With works, faith cannot save any child doing no good. Ungrown newborn babes without works are unjustified by doing no good.

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?...Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Any man doing evil has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the righteous, and any man doing no good is dead to the living God.

Romans 4 is only for newborn babes without any works to be judged by, and James 2 is only to converted children of God with works to account to the Father.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Only newborn babes becoming sons of God doing good, are the just living by faith and resurrected in the Son's own likeness.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Col 2:6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[prism]

Converted Christians are justified with works.

Would you mind defining 'being justified'?

 

[Ghada]

Would you mind defining 'being justified'?

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Mat 24:13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Salvation and justification with God is at once complete through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation and justification continue through obedience to the Son.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal salvation is sealed by resurrection from the dead, for all sons obediently enduring unto the end.

Rev 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[prism]

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Mat 24:13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Salvation and justification with God is at once complete through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation and justification continue through obedience to the Son.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Eternal salvation is sealed by resurrection from the dead, for all sons obediently enduring unto the end.

Rev 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I'm use to justification as being defined this way...being declared righteous on the basis of faith in Christ's merits.
Not "being justified with works" Are you Roman Catholic? I ask because they tend to lump justification and sanctification together, as you have done above.

Would the 'godless' in v.4,5 &6 be considered justified?

Romans 4:2 (KJV) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:4 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[Ghada]

I'm use to justification as being defined this way...being declared righteous on the basis of faith in Christ's merits.

This is a traditional saying of modern Christianity.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Men are justified by believing in Jesus Christ and having His righteous faith toward God.

Nothing is said about believing in His 'merits'. That's a foggy bottom bromide for believing Jesus Christ is good.

The devils and unrepentant sinners around the world believe that. The devils even say so.

Luk 4:34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Believing Jesus is good is good, but only the believers doing His will are justified with God.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

 

[Ghada]

Not "being justified with works"

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Mar 12:23 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Justified faith in Jesus Christ is beleiving what He says according to the Scriptures, not in traditional sayings.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I ask because they tend to lump justification and sanctification together, as you have done above.

God from above does. As well as being washed:

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Would the 'godless' in v.4,5 &6 be considered justified?

Does God justify ungodly men in their ungodly deeds? Or, does Jesus Christ justify the ungodly that repent of their ungodly deeds?

Nah 1:3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Heb 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repent and be justified by His faith toward God and His righteousness. He does not acquit and justify the unrighteous in their unrighteousness.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Romans 4:2 (KJV) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

The context of works in Romans 4, is that works do not justify apart from faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Outward works of the law alone do not make anyone justified with God.

Rom 4:12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The works also that do not justify any man with God, are ungodly works not in step with Abraham's walk with God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Therefore, justification is by faith without works of the law, and unrighteous works of the flesh.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The only works we are justified with by faith, are works of God's righteousness.

No man is justified by God through works of the law, and especially not with ungodly works of unrighteous men and women.

Romans 4:4 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Salvation is not a reward for repentance from dead works, because repentance is ceasing works, which has no reward. No man can boast of not doing evil.

Collosians{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

2Jo 1:8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Psa 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

But the inheritance of resurrection unto life is by reward of living righteously and holily through the faith of Jesus.

2Sa 3:39 And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness.

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

By our works are we all judged and rewarded according to our deeds, whether good unto life or evil unto death.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The chosen sons of God are only them doing good. Them doing evil are neither chosen nor born of God.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
1Jo 3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans 4:5 (KJV) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Once again. God does not justify the ungodly doing ungodly deeds. The righteous Lord does not judged anyone righteous with unrighteous works.

Anyone trusting in a Christ to justify them through faith alone, while doing any unrighteousness, are trusting in an unjust Christ, not Jesus Christ.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
The present seduction is the same the same as the old seduction in the garden: That men and women can do evil, and yet beleive they can justified with God and live forever.
Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Ghada]

Romans 4:6 (KJV) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Newborn babes are without works. Growing children are not without works.

Heb 5-6 shows that ungrown babes remaining without works of God, become dead and fallen away from the true Vine Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

The resolution of Romans 4 justification by faith without works, and James 2 justification by works with faith, is found by who is being spoken about and to: Newborn babes without works vs converted Christians with works.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The context in Romans 4 is about being newborn babes in Christ: It is when the sinner is newly forgiven of all past works and forgotten by God, as though they were never done:

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Likewise, as newborn babes, the newly justified convert does not have any works to be judged by.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There is no law against any newborn babe, because there are no works to judge by law. The law is only made for works. Where no law is, there is no transgression, and where no works are, there is no law.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

There is no law for newborn babes, where there are no works, but there is law for grown children doing works against the law.

Christians doing sinful works are judged by the law of Christ as transgressors of the world. Having been newborn babes does not justify any child of disobedience doing evil, whether from the womb or after faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Without works, faith only saves the newborn babe. With works, faith cannot save any child doing no good. Ungrown newborn babes without works are unjustified by doing no good.

Jas 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?...Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Any man doing evil has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the righteous, and any man doing no good is dead to the living God.

Romans 4 is only for newborn babes without any works to be judged by, and James 2 is only to converted children of God with works to account to the Father.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Only newborn babes becoming sons of God doing good, are the just living by faith and resurrected in the Son's own likeness.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Col 2:6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

I'll pass attempting to unravel this tangled mess!

​

 

[Ghada]

I'll pass attempting to unravel this tangled mess!

​

I.e. You have no clue, and can't find any fault in any part of it, so you take your ball and go home.

2Ti 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The problem with people limiting themselves to only what they want to hear, is that their intelligence becomes dull by deafened ears, and everything else becomes just a big mystery to them.

Heb 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Which is how people with purposely limited intelligence like it. Afterall, if they can't understand something, then they're not responsible for it, right?

Mat 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Wrong. Spiritually, it's Satan that takes their ball home for them, with his hands wrapped around their ears.

 

[prism]

This is a traditional saying of modern Christianity.

Gal 2:16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Men are justified by believing in Jesus Christ and having His righteous faith toward God.

Nothing is said about believing in His 'merits'. That's a foggy bottom bromide for believing Jesus Christ is good.

The devils and unrepentant sinners around the world believe that. The devils even say so.

Luk 4:34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Believing Jesus is good is good, but only the believers doing His will are justified with God.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Thing is, God did not become an angel to redeem angels/devils, so they have no promise, no hope and therefore cannot have true saving faith, of course they know God is One, having once been in His presence.

 

[prism]

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Mar 12:23 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Justified faith in Jesus Christ is beleiving what He says according to the Scriptures, not in traditional sayings.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Abraham was justified upon believing God's promise from the beginning. Abraham grew in faith while he had been justified

The context of works in Romans 4, is that works do not justify apart from faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Outward works of the law alone do not make anyone justified with God.

Rom 4:12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The works also that do not justify any man with God, are ungodly works not in step with Abraham's walk with God.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Therefore, justification is by faith without works of the law, and unrighteous works of the flesh.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The only works we are justified with by faith, are works of God's righteousness.

No man is justified by God through works of the law, and especially not with ungodly works of unrighteous men and women.

(see my comment above)

Once again. God does not justify the ungodly doing ungodly deeds. The righteous Lord does not judged anyone righteous with unrighteous works.

Anyone trusting in a Christ to justify them through faith alone, while doing any unrighteousness, are trusting in an unjust Christ, not Jesus Christ.

Mark 13:22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
The present seduction is the same the same as the old seduction in the garden: That men and women can do evil, and yet beleive they can justified with God and live forever.
Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Born again Christians (those with a new nature) will have no desire (according to their new man), will have no desire to do unrighteousness. We at one time all served satan's desires and even our best righteousness were as filthy rags compared to Christ's righteousness.

 

[prism]

Newborn babes are without works. Growing children are not without works.

Heb 5-6 shows that ungrown babes remaining without works of God, become dead and fallen away from the true Vine Jesus Christ.

Newborn babes (in Christ) can give thanks to Christ for saving him/her.
Otherwise, I'd place absolutely no confidence in my works, only His will do...

Philippians 3:8-11 ESV
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ [9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith- [10] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

 

[Red Baker]

I.e. You have no clue, and can't find any fault in any part of it, so you take your ball and go home.

Wishing thinking on your part.

Ghada, actually it was big confused mess, and choosing the place to begin to unravel this confused mess was more work than I wanted to waste on you. I chose to heed Christ's exhortation:

Matthew 7:6​

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

And Paul's:

Philippians 3:2​

“Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.”

Your teachings are full of the teachings of the concision workers, who are evil workers, who go about adding works to free justification by grace alone through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ.

 

[Red Baker]

Abraham was justified upon believing God's promise from the beginning. Abraham grew in faith while he had been justified

Abraham's faith was not the legal sense in which he was justified before God~that would be impossible, for only the faith and obedience of one person is the only grounds of the sinner's free justification, and that would be Christ's...not man's. You quoted this above:

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Born again Christians (those with a new nature) will have no desire (according to their new man), will have no desire to do unrighteousness. We at one time all served satan's desires and even our best righteousness were as filthy rags compared to Christ's righteousness.

This is not so! It is very true, those born of God do not practice sinning, or, live under its power~but, the desire to sin is their in their FLESH, their old man. It does stay confined within the mind of the old man, (or, at least it should, at times it may not) because the new nature has the power to over come its wicked desires.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Paul, whose new nature desires to live in perfect agreement with God's good, holy, and spiritual law, ~ yet, he saw another law working in his flesh, keeping him from perfectly living in obedience to the law of God, as a matter of fact, this other law Paul saw working desired evil not the good, holy, spiritual law of God. Of course, Paul did not allow this other law have the victory over him, yet it was there and seeking to bring him into the captivity of the law of sin, which he did not allow this to happen. Paul was not speaking of outward sins, but of the inward war of every child of God. Selah.

 

[JIM]

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

That is basically Galatianism which Paul sought ernestly to combat. Read and study Galatians.

We are saved by grace through faith; we stay saved by grace through faith -- period.

 

[JIM]

Abraham's faith was not the legal sense in which he was justified before God~that would be impossible, for only the faith and obedience of one person is the only grounds of the sinner's free justification, and that would be Christ's...not man's. You quoted this above:

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

I really wish you would stop relying on the inappropriate translation of the KJV in passages like Philippians 3:9.

(ASV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

(ESV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--

(NASB) and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

(NIV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

(NKJV) and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

(RV) and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

The many made sinners and the many made righteous are precisely the same. Both speak of conditions of the just born. Jesus' obedience quite effectively negated any effect that Adam's disobedience might have had on mankind. There is no exegesis, no rational interpretation which can allow the many made sinners to be different (in fact more) than the many made righteous. We all come into this world free from any effects of Adam. Any unrighteousness is on us and only us. No one can blame anyone else for their own bad decisions.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Paul, whose new nature desires to live in perfect agreement with God's good, holy, and spiritual law, ~ yet, he saw another law working in his flesh, keeping him from perfectly living in obedience to the law of God, as a matter of fact, this other law Paul saw working desired evil not the good, holy, spiritual law of God. Of course, Paul did not allow this other law have the victory over him, yet it was there and seeking to bring him into the captivity of the law of sin, which he did not allow this to happen. Paul was not speaking of outward sins, but of the inward war of every child of God. Selah.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Red Baker]

I really wish you would stop relying on the inappropriate translation of the KJV in passages like Philippians 3:9.

Good morning Jim, you like me rise up very early in the mornings~the best time to read, study, and be alone with the Lord~before all the noises of everyday life begins~which is an hindrance to our minds.

Jim, the KJV alone, with a few others.... Geneva, etc., bibles have it correctly translated, knowing this, not because I know Greek, which I do not, neither do I care to learn, but, because this wording in such place (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 and a few other places) supports true gospel of Jesus Christ, which proclaims free justification through Jesus' faith and obedience alone. The other false version, leads men to beleive in their own works, as the means of them being Justified before God, which that is impossible, since man's faith at its best is mixed with sin. Consider what you posted:

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Jim, our hope of deliverance even in the state in which we are now living~with our new nature capable of loving and fearing God, is only through Jesus Christ our Lord! How much more in only having the body of sin and death, which the unregenerate have! Jim, Salvation from sin and condemnation is of the Lord, period, without man having not even one act of righteousness involved in this salvation~not even his faith, which according to the word of God is a work of the law. Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; etc.

 

[Mr GLee]

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

The resolution of Romans 4 justification by faith without works, and James 2 justification by works with faith, is found by who is being spoken about and to: Newborn babes without works vs converted Christians with works.

Why would you divide that which God calls one?. milk and meat ?

Milk of the word, meat of the word .Both needed for Christian growth

Impossible to be justified by faith (power) without works .

Faith is a work of Christ's labor "let there be" good love that works in us ..

Newborn drink the milk of the word. It teaches us he is gracious even before the opening of the eyes .

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version2 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Have you tasted it?

The apostles not weaned from milk had a bible study that day

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

You could say no milk, no meat.. . . .starve to death

Milk build strong bones of "let there be" and it was God alone good Faith

As long as one denies the faith .(understanding) . Christ's power working in and with us . Growing graciously moving to the meat the power to both hear and do . . impossible

Never outgrow the need for grace (milk).

Pray give us this day in this land of milk and honey our daily meat . Revelation 2:17 hidden manna

Interestingly Honey a metaphor used in parables to represent meat or bread, called Manna, literally meaning. . . What is it ?

The doctrine of milk would make a great study. Used 48 gracious times times

 

[JIM]

Good morning Jim, you like me rise up very early in the mornings~the best time to read, study, and be alone with the Lord~before all the noises of everyday life begins~which is an hindrance to our minds.

Jim, the KJV alone, with a few others.... Geneva, etc., bibles have it correctly translated, knowing this, not because I know Greek, which I do not, neither do I care to learn, but, because this wording in such place (Romans 3:22; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9 and a few other places) supports true gospel of Jesus Christ, which proclaims free justification through Jesus' faith and obedience alone. The other false version, leads men to beleive in their own works, as the means of them being Justified before God, which that is impossible, since man's faith at its best is mixed with sin.

Yeah, I have been an early Bird, no pun intended, for most of my life. Even in high school in the fifties when I worked in the service station, I would routinely open up the station in the morning, before the boss got there. I would run it until he came in. I would then go home shower, have breakfast and go to school. And then more often than not, go back to work after school. All my professional career, I tended to be one of the very first to show up at work in the mornings. I could get more work done in that hour or so before everyone else wandered in than in the next four hours or so.

As I have said in our many discussions on this topic, even the idea that God, the Son, had or needed faith is an affront to Jesus. Faith, as it relates to theology generally and to God specifically, is defined in Hebrews 11:1. It is inconceivable how that definition could be applied to Jesus Christ.

The KJV simply got it wrong in those verses you highlighted. The KJV also made a similar mistake in Romans 3:3. Here again, the idea of assigning to God a faith as defined in Hebrews 11:1 is ludicrous.

Jim, our hope of deliverance even in the state in which we are now living~with our new nature capable of loving and fearing God, is only through Jesus Christ our Lord! How much more in only having the body of sin and death, which the unregenerate have! Jim, Salvation from sin and condemnation is of the Lord, period, without man having not even one act of righteousness involved in this salvation~not even his faith, which according to the word of God is a work of the law. Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; etc.

And the KJV again makes the same mistake in Mathew 23:23. Faith is not a work of the law. Faithfulness is. That distinction, though running a fine line, is real. And 1 John 3:23 is speaking of NT commands. There are many NT commands that are not work of the law.

 

[Ghada]

There is a third kind of works that do not justify a man with God: Works of good deeds alone.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Along with Eph 2, works done to earn forgiveness from God do not justify anyone with God, such as works of penance. Forgiveness is by grace not by works.

And so, we have three kinds of works of men, that do not justify a man with God: Works of the law alone to boast of, works of unrighteousness condemned by, and works of good deeds to earn forgiveness.

Only the works of righteousness of God from a pure heart created in Christ Jesus, are justified with the Father.