Revelation … everything was written FOR the people living THEN?

[Marty]

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious. The book starts out with seven real churches with seven very real conditions that Christians living under that culture and persecution would have been familiar with. The horsemen represent sufferings like war and famine and oppression that those people would have been only too familiar with. After acknowledging their suffering, the veil is pulled back and John/God reveal the spiritual war going on unseen behind the events of their hard lives (offering a glimpse and a hope that Satan would ultimately be defeated). Lastly comes the climax, a glimpse of the end with the ULTIMATE PROMISE that God will not merely triumph, but that those that are suffering NOW will one day be with Him and everything will be made RIGHT.

It is not intended to be a literal future prophecy for future generations to pick apart into complex debated timelines, it is a symbolic code for people IN a hard times to find hope. It was written to THEM about THEIR TIME, but it is timeless because Christians suffer and struggle in EVERY TIME. We have done an injustice to the church by making it about some FUTURE EVENTS when it is about getting through PRESENT STRUGGLES with Hope.

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People (how many times is that used symbolically in scripture), so 12 x 12 is all of Gods people (Jews and Gentiles). 10 is symbolic of “many”, so 10x10x10 is many x many x many … basically “infinite”. So putting those together means that 144,000 is “ALL OF GOD’S PEOPLE, A MULTITUDE BEYOND COUNTING” … now what did John promise would happen to this multitude of God’s People … and remember that he made this promise to people that were LIVING (and dying) through the events of the Horsemen. Do you think that might have offered some encouragement to them in the middle of their hard times? Do you think it might still offer some encouragement to people living through their own personal hard times TODAY?

Revelation was a warning that a soon coming first century persecution was coming but also a promise that Jesus would walk through it with them and that the church would prevail and flourish

Revelation was written to the saints of the first century but it is also for us today an instruction to remain faithful and that we will be virtuous

 

[Arial]

My bad, lol.. @Hazelelponi corrected me, she had posted the video from Monergism.org, (not GotQuestions).

Yes, she reposted it on 'Videos', and I put a link in her post to refer readers to where she posted it on 'Videos'. Lol, if that made sense to you, you are better than me!

When you linked it in her post you put it back in the post. I took it out again. I had already put a note in her post as an admin edit and explanation that it was reposted in "Videos". That is all we need to do. If someone posts a video in a post it is because they are not aware of the rule. We make sure and tell them why the video was deleted and have them repost it in the proper place.

 

[Hazelelponi]

When you linked it in her post you put it back in the post. I took it out again. I had already put a note in her post as an admin edit and explanation that it was reposted in "Videos". That is all we need to do. If someone posts a video in a post it is because they are not aware of the rule. We make sure and tell them why the video was deleted and have them repost it in the proper place.

I edited between your edit and his .. he and you don't realize, I took your edit out and put in a new one . Lol.... Then he took my edit out and put in the new one.

Now the video link is back out. What are we doing?

 

[Arial]

I edited between your edit and his .. he and you don't realize, I took your edit out and put in a new one . Lol.

Ok. I saw that you had posted the video and so checked your post to see if you had directed to the video. It wasn't there yet so I went ahead and did it. My guess is you were editing while I was and we got at cross purposes.

 

[Arial]

@Hazelelponi

I checked that post the video was in and your directing to the video section is not there and neither was mine (which you said you deleted and added yours.) So I put mine back in. Now to bring @makesends back into the conversation. He said he had provided a link in your post to the video section. And I told him that it put the video back into your post. However, now I am thinking that it was you Hazel that might have done that inadvertantly. Did you post the video link? Because that will put the video visible in the post if you copy/paste the link. Even if you in bed the link it will show as a link but if clicked on opens in the post.

I need that emoji with the squirrely spiraling eyes!

Anyway---all is well that ends well.

 

[Carbon]

 

[makesends]

I edited between your edit and his .. he and you don't realize, I took your edit out and put in a new one . Lol.... Then he took my edit out and put in the new one.

Now the video link is back out. What are we doing?

I'm sorry. Apparently it is not allowed back in even after being approved. My bad, again.

Maybe just make a mention of it and a post number (#1, in your case) in the videos forum, or link the https thus?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/sermon-dr-voddie-baucham-144-000.2542/

(At least, I hope this doesn't actually post the video.)

Is that allowed, @Arial ?


Lol, I just looked back through the last few posts here, and besides laughing, I am now thoroughly on top of what happened. I will generously take any blame, and spread around whatever credit is due.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm sorry. Apparently it is not allowed back in even after being approved. My bad, again.

Maybe just make a mention of it and a post number (#1, in your case) in the videos forum, or link the https thus?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/sermon-dr-voddie-baucham-144-000.2542/

(At least, I hope this doesn't actually post the video.)

I'll just leave it as is... People can look in the video section if they want.

I may consider transcribing the portion of the video where he discusses the names and why he categorizes them as symbolic, that was the impetus behind my posting the video to begin with.

this has taught me a lot though about the rules surrounding videos though, and I'll be careful in the future

 

[makesends]

this has taught me a lot though about the rules surrounding videos though, and I'll be careful in the future

Oh, Good. Maybe you can teach me!

 

[makesends]

Lololol ! I got ready to write another comment, but decided to reload the page, just to see if anything new and relevant had been posted, to keep my comment up-to-date. But my hotspot had unplugged, so the page wouldn't reload, and I'm left here with my mouth open to say something and nobody listening!

I remember being a little kid with my friend over for the night and telling him a joke. I barely made it to the punch line, and then lost it, laughing and laughing, until I realized I hadn't heard him laughing. He had fallen asleep, and I had told my joke to the walls.

Garrison Keiler of Lake Woebegon Days compares this sort of thing to stepping out of the back door of your mobile home at night, only to realize that someone has moved the cement block.

 

[Josheb]

I heard a talk on the Book of Revelation that made what I thought might be a valid point. Brandon Robbins suggested that Revelation was written to the people living at that time, people going through horrific persecution, to whom each of the “apocalyptic literature” symbols would have been painfully obvious.

That is not news to a large swath of Christendom. Preterists (partial and full) have always understood the text of Revelation to be about events that were going to happen quickly because the time was near when the book was written in the first century. In point of fact, It has long been understood by many throughout Christian history that much of what is contained in the book of Revelation were things John, who was a partaker in the tribulation, had seen and things that were at the time the book was written. A mere third of its contents pertains to what came after those things.

 

[3 Resurrections]

As just one small example, 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 … 12 is the number of God’s People

A lovely teaching on the 144,000 (which is the whole of the church) is given by Dr. Voddie Baucham (he did an entire teaching sermon series on Revelation beginning with Daniel, excellent teaching but an investment in time)

I listened to the video in its entirety. This pastor is definitely off track on his interpretation of the 144,000. He totally skipped over the fact that the 144,000 were called the "FIRST-FRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" in Revelation 14:4. In other words, there would be more fruits that would follow their number of 144,000, which means that they cannot possibly represent the whole of the church or the total number of God's people. They were only the FIRST, with others to follow.

The Jewish 144,000 FIRST-FRUITS were the bodily-resurrected Mathew 27:52-53 saints raised from their broken-open graves around Jerusalem on the same day that "Christ the FIRST-FRUITS" arose from the dead. These all shared the same title of the "FIRST-FRUITS" because they all shared the same group resurrection event on the same day of that "FIRST resurrection".

The tribe of Ephraim and Dan were NOT included in this 144,000 number because Dan and Ephraim had totally apostatized into idolatry back in the Old Testament. Apparently, no graves of Ephraim and Dan's tribal members were broken open at Jerusalem on that day back in AD 33 because of their tribes' prior lapse into idolatry.

The 144,000 number can be BOTH literal and symbolic. Back in Numbers 31:1-6 when Moses was directed by God to make war on the Midianites, he called for arming a literal thousand men from each of the twelve tribes to go to the war, "a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war".

But in the New Testament, we have an exponentially-increased number of Jewish "warriors" being chosen. Christ resurrected twelve thousand from each of those twelve designated Israelite tribes (144,000 total) to do battle with Satan's forces in those days, because the battle was also exponentially more dangerous. It was an army of resurrected, glorified saints sent out to serve in the early church, "for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:8-12). Satan on that resurrection day in AD 33 had just been released to deceive the nations again at the end of the millennium for a "short time" and a "little season", with his enraged war against the remnant of the woman's seed. The bodily-resurrected 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 saints were "sealed", which rendered them impervious to Satan's attacks as they waged that spiritual battle against Satan, the enemy of the early church.

The significance of Judah being listed first in Revelation 7 is a replica of God having chosen Judah to be the first tribe to go against the Canaanites in Judges 1:1-2. Reuben and Gad next in the Revelation 7 list is reflective of Reuben and Gad who raised that altar on the other side of Jordan in Joshua 22, to demonstrate their pledge to remain faithful to God, even if their tribes had settled in that region of Gilead, separate from the rest of their brethren. Joshua commended these two tribes for remaining faithful to their promise to fight with their brethren to gain their inheritance before they returned to the other side of Jordan where Moses had allowed them to settle (Joshua 22:2-6).

The physical battles of the twelve tribes in Joshua's days to overcome the Canaanites served as a precursor to the spiritual battles which the bodily-resurrected 144,000 Jewish Matthew 27:52-53 saints waged against Satan's forces which were trying to squash the early NT church out of existence in its first stages of development.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. In other words, there would be more fruits that would follow their number of 144,000,

This makes no sense to me.

How are you defining first fruits exactly?

Im betting there's a lot of things we might not be definitely as identically, but I am not sure.

 

[3 Resurrections]

How are you defining first fruits exactly?

I define these 144,000 "First-fruits" exactly the way the Israelites used to do. Go look at Leviticus 23:10-12 which describes the very first harvest of barley in Israel. At Passover, the Israelites were to take a handful of the first-ripened barley grain and bring it to the temple for the priest to wave it before the Lord. This sheaf handful of barley "First-fruits" was a token of the entire barley harvest about to come. Significantly, this sheaf handful of First-fruits barley grain was to be offered in the temple along with a single he-lamb of the first year without blemish - which was representative of the resurrected "Christ the First-fruits". Together, this Mosaic ritual offering was a picture of the resurrected Christ and the Matthew 127:52-53 saints which He raised from the dead on the same day He also arose. Together, they were all called "First-fruits", as the first mass group to be "harvested" or resurrected out of the ground ("redeemed from the earth" - Rev. 14:3).

As you know, there were three required harvest feast celebrations in Israel. First of all, the First-fruits of the barley harvest at Passover, then the wheat harvest at Pentecost exactly 50 days later, and then the final third harvest in the seventh month at the Feast of Tabernacles when all the varied crops of the "feast of ingathering" were harvested at the end of the agricultural season.

These three harvests were intended to be symbolic of the bodily resurrectionS (PLURAL) for God's saints. God designed the bodily resurrections of His saints to correspond to these three festival times exactly. There were going to be no less than three group harvests of the saints' bodies out of the grave. The Matthew 27:52-53 bodily-resurrected 144,000 First-fruits Jewish saints at Passover were only the "FIRST resurrection", to be followed eventually by the other two group resurrection events. The second bodily resurrection event was on AD 70's Pentecost day, as predicted precisely on Daniel's 1,335th day (Daniel 12:11-13). We are now waiting for the third and largest group resurrection in our future, which will take place in the seventh month at the same time when the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated back in the OT.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I define these 144,000 "First-fruits" exactly the way the Israelites used to do. Go look at Leviticus 23:10-12 which describes the very first harvest of barley in Israel. At Passover, the Israelites were to take a handful of the first-ripened barley grain and bring it to the temple for the priest to wave it before the Lord. This sheaf handful of barley "First-fruits" was a token of the entire barley harvest about to come. Significantly, this sheaf handful of First-fruits barley grain was to be offered in the temple along with a single he-lamb of the first year without blemish - which was representative of the resurrected "Christ the First-fruits". Together, this Mosaic ritual offering was a picture of the resurrected Christ and the Matthew 127:52-53 saints which He raised from the dead on the same day He also arose. Together, they were all called "First-fruits", as the first mass group to be "harvested" or resurrected out of the ground ("redeemed from the earth" - Rev. 14:3).

As you know, there were three required harvest feast celebrations in Israel. First of all, the First-fruits of the barley harvest at Passover, then the wheat harvest at Pentecost exactly 50 days later, and then the final third harvest in the seventh month at the Feast of Tabernacles when all the varied crops of the "feast of ingathering" were harvested at the end of the agricultural season.

These three harvests were intended to be symbolic of the bodily resurrectionS (PLURAL) for God's saints. God designed the bodily resurrections of His saints to correspond to these three festival times exactly. There were going to be no less than three group harvests of the saints' bodies out of the grave. The Matthew 27:52-53 bodily-resurrected 144,000 First-fruits Jewish saints at Passover were only the "FIRST resurrection", to be followed eventually by the other two group resurrection events. The second bodily resurrection event was on AD 70's Pentecost day, as predicted precisely on Daniel's 1,335th day (Daniel 12:11-13). We are now waiting for the third and largest group resurrection in our future, which will take place in the seventh month at the same time when the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated back in the OT.

I'm trying to figure out where exactly the break in our thoughts are.

Christ is the first fruit of the dead (those who have been ressurected). Since Christ is first fruits of the ressurected dead, we know there are more to follow after him. Further individuals will likewise be ressurected from the dead.

The ceremonies (various festivals) were types and shadow looking forward to Jesus and his saving work in redemptive history.

We see in the Bible there's another type of first fruits, and that is the believers in Christ. We see specifically Epaenetus in Romans 16:5 being listed as a first fruit of the believers in his area.

So Christ is the first fruits of the dead and believers also a type of first fruit, looking forward to the promise of there to be more believers to follow, just as Christs resurrection looks forward to more following in his ressurection...

Are we on the same page so far? (I have more to add I believe but I am wanting to check we see this basic start the same way.)

 

[Arial]

I'm sorry. Apparently it is not allowed back in even after being approved. My bad, again.

Maybe just make a mention of it and a post number (#1, in your case) in the videos forum, or link the https thus?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/sermon-dr-voddie-baucham-144-000.2542/

(At least, I hope this doesn't actually post the video.)

Is that allowed, @Arial ?


Lol, I just looked back through the last few posts here, and besides laughing, I am now thoroughly on top of what happened. I will generously take any blame, and spread around whatever credit is due.

The link actually put the video in this post if one clicks on it, so I suggest removing it from this post. Do it according to post #22. WHen the link is removed from the post above, everything will be handled and be where it should be.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The ceremonies (various festivals) were types and shadow looking forward to Jesus and his saving work in redemptive history.

EXACTLY. That is the point I am making in bringing up the OT ritual of the barley "First-fruits" ceremony at Passover back in Leviticus 23:10-12.

People don't really know what to do with the subject of the many Matthew 27:52-53 bodily-resurrected saints raised on the same day as Christ. They don't know what purpose they served. I have done many years of digging into all the scriptures that refer to this group of Jewish saints raised from those graves around Jerusalem in AD 33. They are a riveting subject, and their footprints appear in many more places in the New Testament writings than just Matthew 27:52-53.

People know that Christ was called the "First-fruits" in 1 Corinthians 15:23. But they can't seem to make the connection that the 144,000 "First-fruits unto God and to the Lamb" were the same as the group of many bodily-resurrected saints raised in Matthew 27:52-53 on that same day as Christ.

We see in the Bible there's another type of first fruits, and that is the believers in Christ

I put special emphasis on "ANOTHER" type of first-fruits. It is not the same description as the 144,000 First-fruits.

The spiritually-resurrected individuals James 1:18 once referred to as "a KIND of First-fruits of His creatures". Similar in some way to the bodily-resurrected First-fruits saints coming out of the ground in the sense that they were awakened to a new spiritual life. It's the same for the first-fruits who were believing in Romans 16:5. But don't conflate these passages describing a spiritually-awakened state with the other group of 144,000 "First-fruits" whose bodies were physically "redeemed from the EARTH" (out of the ground). Everything in Revelation 14:1-4 was speaking of the many Matthew 27:52-53 bodily resurrected saints and their activities while still remaining on earth in the first-century to serve in the early church.

 

[Arial]

I'm sorry. Apparently it is not allowed back in even after being approved. My bad, again.

Maybe just make a mention of it and a post number (#1, in your case) in the videos forum, or link the https thus?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/sermon-dr-voddie-baucham-144-000.2542/

(At least, I hope this doesn't actually post the video.)

Is that allowed, @Arial ?


Lol, I just looked back through the last few posts here, and besides laughing, I am now thoroughly on top of what happened. I will generously take any blame, and spread around whatever credit is due.

The link put it back in the thread. I am just going to leave it alone. You can delete the link if you want, but every time someone quotes the post the link has already been added in the quote.

For future reference I will pass on something I checked and therefore figured out this morning but will do it in a PM so as to not make this even more confusing.