Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Dave]

Yes, that's your whole argument, "faith before salvation." It is up to man.

Man is responsible, just as God is the Author and finisher of our faith. It's called compatibilism. You know that.

Phil. 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[Dave]

Let's get back to the basics for a second.

You have stated (at least as I understand what you have said) that the OT saints were saved by regeneration but that they were not born again.

Hi Arial

Correct. If they had nothing, they wouldn't have believed. But they had faith. But also, what they had came from the outside. The Holy Spirit was upon them, but not in them. Remember, God didn't indwell believers until after the death of Jesus, that's when the Temple curtain tore down the middle. The reason for that is because after the death of Jesus, there is actual blood to cleans the NT Temple, us. In the OT, God would have been uniting with that which is unclean, OT believers.

That what happened with the OT saints instead of being born again, is a primitive type of regeneration. Does that mean that you are positing that it falls short of being born again but is enough to save them?

Having the holy Spirit upon them is not enough to save them. That's why OT believers were kept in Hades until the death resurrection and ascension. When Jesus descended for three days, that's where he went. OT believers still living needed the indwelling of the Holy spirit, or they are not born again. They had faith, but this Promise of the Father was owed to them. That's what happened at Pentecost. OT believers still living receiving what was promised to them.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Is there actually anything in Scripture that states such a thing as a type of regeneration that does not mean full regeneration?

This is just a one verse reminder, but as you know, there are more. This was spoken to OT believers in Jesus Christ and the Gospel message. They still have not received the Promise given to them by God.

John 16:12-14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

Note that last part. Put it together with Romans 8:9-11 above, which is well into the NT and the transition from the OT to the NT is over.

 

[Dave]

We are delivered from our bondage to sin.
We are delivered from sins condemnation.

What are you getting at?

I thought that if you were to hear it from someone that you know and trust, yourself, that you might believe it. The way that we're freed from the bondage of sin is to be born again. The message, believe and be saved. What are we freed from? The bondage of sin, and the penalty of sin. Faith begets born again. It is through faith that we are saved.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

 

[Dave]

They place the Spirit's testifying with your spirit that you're a child of God as the initial part of sanctification - confirmation of regeneration and justification - and not as the regeneration itself. The born again IS the moment you are given a salvific understanding/recognition of God/Jesus in truth.

Your placing the Spirits testimony in the wrong place is all.

I was having a problem myself with where to put that, but I do finally get it...

Hi Hazelelponi

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do believe that you're putting the cart before the horse. Remember post #200.

Dave

 

[Dave]

A person cannot be born again and justified unless that person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If a person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then they are complete in Him and lacking nothing (Colossian 2:10-14). Complete in Him comes before faith? Scripture says we are saved through faith, by faith. Faith is the spiritual vehicle that takes us to being complete in Him, in Him and lacking nothing/saved, because by/through faith we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Can we honestly look at John 3:3 and believe that it solves everything? It's shocking to me that some great reformed minds have settled on that same silver bullet that doesn't say what they claim it does. It's sloppy and very very near sighted. I just listened to R.C. Sproul do the same thing last night on youtube. I've already given more probable definitions of that passage that fit with what I've been saying. If Armenians offered that same kind of 'stretched' evidence reformers would tear them to pcs. But how easily we allow ourselves to do the same.

We have a lot to be thankful for from the past reformed theologians. But remember, the Scribes and Pharisees in the Gospels were the experts of their day. You can see in Scripture how much they got wrong when Jesus confronted them. They had a lot wrong.

If this thing comes full circle, and somehow the masses of reformed people Forest Gumped their way to a correct end result, that's great. At least I'll know how I got there. What is being offered as proof these days, by my estimation, falls very short.

Jesus is the Word. I need to know the truth because I need to know more of Him. These inconsistencies with Scripture need to be answered. That's what I'm looking for.

I need to see born again in the OT. Not regeneration, born again. I need to see indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more information on the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more on how a man can come to faith, genuinely, with the Holy Spirit only being upon Him, and not in Him. I want to see if there is a true "in Him" in the OT. I've seen it a few times, but haven't yet looked into it. It could just be a poor translation ."in Him" should equate with being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. OT saints could not be indwelt. That a wrench in the machinery.

Here's a scary thought. What if man comes to faith from the flesh, but for selfish reasons? Is that possible? The thought has crossed my mind. Could the Spirit of God work in harmony with the selfish nature of man and bring a person to faith? I ask myself, what if it was the Armenians were the ones who Forest Gumped their way to the correct answers. God does reveal Himself to the babes. Would you be able to handle that? Do you have enough faith in Jesus to honestly seek the truth where ever it goes.

Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

1 Corinthians 1: For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

Right now Carbon is thinking 'I knew he was saying faith comes from the flesh'.

No, I'm not. There would be a lot of scripture to overcome. I'll allow for the possibility that the questions that I have may take me there, though.

Dave

 

[Carbon]

It's not born again.

Thanks for your opinion

 

[Carbon]

Man is saved by believing (John 3:16). God does not believe for a man. God is the cause of a man believing.
Like a carpenter with a hammer. The hammer addresses the nail but the hammer is a secondary cause of striking the nail.
The cause of man's salvation is his belief in Christ. The cause of man's belief is God. God is uncaused.

The cause of man’s belief in Christ is because of his salvation

 

[Carbon]

Request: Where in this thread have you explained the difference between "regeneration" and "born again."

He hasn’t. And I think he thinks he has.

 

[Carbon]

Does what I said contradict that?

No not at all.

 

[Carbon]

Man is responsible, just as God is the Author and finisher of our faith. It's called compatibilism. You know that.

So far I’m not in agreement with you on these things. I’m not so sure you have a good understanding. I’m just being honest

 

[Carbon]

Can we honestly look at John 3:3 and believe that it solves everything?

Of course not. But honestly, if we did it would be like synergists believing John 3:16 solves everything.

 

[Arial]

I thought that if you were to hear it from someone that you know and trust, yourself, that you might believe it. The way that we're freed from the bondage of sin is to be born again. The message, believe and be saved. What are we freed from? The bondage of sin, and the penalty of sin. Faith begets born again. It is through faith that we are saved.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Instead of just repeating yourself, could you actually engage with what I have put forth and refute if you can, WHY I say what I do is incorrect. That isn't done by simply repeating your position---the very position I went to the trouble to refute. It shows you are only able to work from your own presuppositions, that I find to be speculation based, rather than sound exegesis or considering the whole counsel of God. On not thoroughly vetting your interpretations of various scriptures. I will give examples of that when I respond to post #222, where you tie two scriptures together to equal an interpretation that is a speculation, and the two scriptures are not doctrinally or theologically tied together. It is using a scripture to interpret a scripture that in which the two scriptures are not from the same perspective or about the same thing. And certainly not about the difference between OT Regeneration and NT born again (as you have divided them) or about where the OT saints go when they die and that they are waiting for the promised new birth.

And in your above post, you have come up with a teaching on our freedom from the bondage of sin to be through faith and therefore faith begets the new birth. You are not correctly dividing the word of God. And you have not once addressed the definitions I have given of the new birth, in posts #175 and 207. Not have you answered this question:

Explain to me please how someone can have that faith if they have not been born again and remain dead in their sins?

That was from post#207. You haven't dealt with anything in that post. Maybe you haven't gotten to it yet.

 

[Carbon]

Jesus is the Word. I need to know the truth because I need to know more of Him. These inconsistencies with Scripture need to be answered. That's what I'm looking for.

I need to see born again in the OT. Not regeneration, born again. I need to see indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more information on the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more on how a man can come to faith, genuinely, with the Holy Spirit only being upon Him, and not in Him. I want to see if there is a true "in Him" in the OT. I've seen it a few times, but haven't yet looked into it. It could just be a poor translation ."in Him" should equate with being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. OT saints could not be indwelt. That a wrench in the machinery.

Ezekiel 36.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Is this scripture not acceptable for you? does it contradict the ones you use?

 

[Josheb]

Is there anything else that we're delivered from?

Wrath

 

[Carbon]

Ezekiel 36.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Is this scripture not acceptable for you? does it contradict the ones you use?

@Dave
You must remember also, the Spirit is in all things; if God removed His Spirit, all life would cease to exist. The Spirit indwells all, just in different measure.

 

[Carbon]

Sometimes it's easier to think of it as delivered, as I'm sure that you already know, saved means delivered.

So we're delivered from the penalty of sin. God's justice. Is there anything else that we're delivered from?

Where the rubber meets the ground, Dave, the elect are saved from God by God Himself.

 

[Arial]

Correct. If they had nothing, they wouldn't have believed. But they had faith. But also, what they had came from the outside.

So it wasn't really faith at all but the Holy Spirit upon them. Faith by definition is internal. Soon as the Holy Spirit departed so did their faith? There were times indeed, when the Holy Spirit was said to come upon certain people to equip them for special purposes, such as in designing and building the things of the temple. Skills iow. And there were times when the Holy Spirit came upon a person or group of people for a time to do a particular thing. Never is it said to come upon anyone FOR faith that saves. Faith that saves is an internal work of God on the very position of a person, the condition of their heart. That internal work of God is regeneration/new birth. (P.S. Not even the dispensationlist MacArthur who you have often quoted and posted his videos, holds the view of regeneration and born again as you do, but the same one that has been presented here by the Reformed.) I figured that is where you were getting all this from so I checked. Along with this new birth/regeneration comes faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Please address what I have said here without simply repeating your position. Address my words!

Remember, God didn't indwell believers until after the death of Jesus, that's when the Temple curtain tore down the middle.

What I don't remember is anytime in the OT where it said that the OT saints were partially regenerated but were not born again. There is a reason why it never used either expression, regenerated or born again, in the OT. Because it would have made no sense at the time to the people who were receiving the Law and Prophets. The Prophets on another occasion did allude to it as pertaining to Messiah when it speaks of God putting a new heart in his people. It looks back specifically on the fall and our enmity with God, our inability to be any other way than the way we are, and looks forward to God himself recreating us, as it were, (a new creation in Christ). The fact that it never mentions directly a regeneration or a new birth does not warrant a leap to the conclusion than no one in the OT was reborn, and reborn in Christ.

Remember this: The Covenant of Redemption was between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit BEFORE creation.

As to the curtain being torn down. That is of course an allusion to the curtain that separated the Holy Place from the most Holy Place. A place where the people could not go, The representative of the very throne of God---going directly to him. Only the High Priest could go there, and only once a year, to perform the sacrifices commanded to cover the sins of the people. That splitting open of the curtain when Jesus died, was representative of both the wall between Jew and Gentile being torn down, and even more, of opening personal access to all who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus to come boldly before his throne of grace to receive grace and mercy, in our time of need. (Which is always.) It had nothing to do directly with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

In the OT, God would have been uniting with that which is unclean, OT believers.

Not if he cleansed them. Are you saying he couldn't do that?

Response to post # 222 to be continue.

 

[Arial]

Having the holy Spirit upon them is not enough to save them. That's why OT believers were kept in Hades until the death resurrection and ascension. When Jesus descended for three days, that's where he went. OT believers still living needed the indwelling of the Holy spirit, or they are not born again. They had faith, but this Promise of the Father was owed to them. That's what happened at Pentecost. OT believers still living receiving what was promised to them.

If you are going to speculate like that and present it as truth, perhaps you should ask Elijah and Moses whether they were born again. Matt 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and JOhn his broghter, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light, And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

They had faith, but this Promise of the Father was owed to them. That's what happened at Pentecost. OT believers still living receiving what was promised to them.

Where did they get that faith from and what was that faith in? Where in the OT did God promise OT believers that they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Is that what was promised to Abraham that he was waiting for but did not receive because time, according to God's plan of redemption must march forward to Christ and the promise of redemption through faith encompassed the whole earth? We are still waiting for the same thing they were waiting for in its fullness. Not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the new heaven and the new earth.
Please address what I say and don't treat it like I never said anything at all.

This:

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Has absolutely no correlation to this as you indicated it to be proof of:

Having the holy Spirit upon them is not enough to save them. That's why OT believers were kept in Hades until the death resurrection and ascension. When Jesus descended for three days, that's where he went. OT believers still living needed the indwelling of the Holy spirit, or they are not born again. They had faith, but this Promise of the Father was owed to them. That's what happened at Pentecost. OT believers still living receiving what was promised to them.

Romans 8:9-11 is not talking about OT believers or relating what is being said to them. It is written to and about NT believers---post incarnation. Paul is not dealing with pre incarnation believers. Is there more than one thing we must believe in in order to be saved? Can we be saved without God first changing our attitude towards him, our inherent hatred of him and disobedience to him?

This is just a one verse reminder, but as you know, there are more. This was spoken to OT believers in Jesus Christ and the Gospel message. They still have not received the Promise given to them by God.

John 16:12-14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

This was given in response to my question if there was a type of regeneration that was not a full regeneration, and given as proof that there is. This scripture does not pertain to OT saints or even regeneration---at all---so how can it prove your statement? Jesus is speaking with his disciples just prior to his death, and letting them know that the Holy Spirit would give them the spiritual truths that they needed, and understanding of them. And that they can trust the Holy Spirit. He is saying that the Holy Spirit can be trusted just as surely as Jesus himself is, to teach only truth. They will learn things that it was impossible for them to know and understand until after his crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. He will give them this understanding so they can lay the foundation of his church. And that foundation, and those teachings, are what we have in Acts and the epistles. Address my words, please. Don't treat them as though they were never said.

 

[Carbon]

If you are going to speculate like that and present it as truth, perhaps you should ask Elijah and Moses whether they were born again. Matt 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and JOhn his broghter, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light, And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

There seems to be a lot of speculation going on from him. Sadly

 

[Carbon]

There seems to be a lot of speculation going on from him. Sadly

And redefining the meaning of words.