Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Dave]

I put this topic in the baptism forum for a reason. To be baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit was not available to us until Pentecost. It's that baptism in Christ that imputed Christs righteousness to us. It's that immersion in Christ that applies His atoning work on the cross to us, and God's justice is satisfied. And it's that placing into Christ that makes us born again, as we identify with Christ death and resurrection in such a way that we ourselves spiritually die and are raised up with Him, born again. That baptism is always a result of faith, not the cause of it. It is my belief that a person cannot be born again unless He is baptized into Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. There is a pre salvation/born again regeneration. We see it in the Old Testament.

So that's what I want to get into, that there is a pre-faith regeneration that is somehow distinct from being born again. That seems to be at odds with many reformed people today, but I don't think it should be. It's right there in scripture. This idea that any regeneration is the result of being born again is in my opinion, serious error for the reasons stated above.

In short, I believe that regeneration describes being born again accurately, but being born again is a much smaller context of what regeneration is as a whole. Kind of like ordained compared to predestined.

This idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe, flies in the face of very clear scripture. It's time to confront this. So here we go. Thoughts?

Dave

 

[Arial]

I put this topic in the baptism forum for a reason. To be baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit was not available to us until Pentecost. It's that baptism in Christ that imputed Christs righteousness to us. It's that immersion in Christ that applies His atoning work on the cross to us, and God's justice is satisfied. And it's that placing into Christ that makes us born again, as we identify with Christ death and resurrection in such a way that we ourselves spiritually die and are raised up with Him, born again. That baptism is always a result of faith, not the cause of it. It is my belief that a person cannot be born again unless He is baptized into Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. There is a pre salvation/born again regeneration. We see it in the Old Testament.

So that's what I want to get into, that there is a pre-faith regeneration that is somehow distinct from being born again. That seems to be at odds with many reformed people today, but I don't think it should be. It's right there in scripture. This idea that any regeneration is the result of being born again is in my opinion, serious error for the reasons stated above.

In short, I believe that regeneration describes being born again accurately, but being born again is a much smaller context of what regeneration is as a whole. Kind of like ordained compared to predestined.

This idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe, flies in the face of very clear scripture. It's time to confront this. So here we go. Thoughts?

Dave

You are really opening up several different discussions here, all of them important discussions. So I will deal with them from my POV,one at a time.

To be baptized into Christ with the Holy Spirit was not available to us until Pentecost.

What was not available to all a covenant people, and only in the New Covenant, is not the baptism to the Holy Spirit, but being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It was not something given to all individuals in the Old Covenant. That indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a result of the person and work of Christ being applied to us, through regeneration -----in being born again. Jesus tells us in John 3 that that happens first, though all else follows and at the same time, yet distinct "events". And all of it monergistic.

Regeneration is the promise of Ez 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statures and be careful to obey my rules.

What happened at Pentecost was the visible sign of John the Baptist saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11)

The Holy Spirit regenerates, applies the work of Jesus to the believer, joining us to him.

That baptism is always a result of faith, not the cause of it. It is my belief that a person cannot be born again unless He is baptized into Christ by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. There is a pre salvation/born again regeneration. We see it in the Old Testament.

Regeneration is the cause of faith. Regeneration and being born again are the same thing and without it there can be no faith. With it, there is faith, There are no stages of salvation, no being in a place of being partly saved, or having only some of the ingredients of salvation. All the "ingredients" of salvation, regeneration, faith, union with Christ, justification etc. are distinct, but they are not separate. And not really chronological. They all belong to and are necessary in salvation. They can only be expressed in their distinctions in a way that the appearance of some sort of chronological aspect exists.

So that's what I want to get into, that there is a pre-faith regeneration that is somehow distinct from being born again. That seems to be at odds with many reformed people today, but I don't think it should be. It's right there in scripture. This idea that any regeneration is the result of being born again is in my opinion, serious error for the reasons stated above.

In short, I believe that regeneration describes being born again accurately, but being born again is a much smaller context of what regeneration is as a whole. Kind of like ordained compared to predestined.

This idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe, flies in the face of very clear scripture. It's time to confront this. So here we go. Thoughts?

You will need to explain yourself before I can address what you mean.

 

[Dave]

You are really opening up several different discussions here, all of them important discussions. So I will deal with them from my POV,one at a time.

Hi @Arial

I've got a half an hour, I'll try to get through this.

Sorry for the big topic. I just can't hear the idea anymore without confronting it. This idea is getting a pass today and needs to be confronted. It's simply not Biblical. And it's not really that hard to prove with Scripture.

What was not available to all a covenant people, and only in the New Covenant, is not the baptism to the Holy Spirit, but being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism with the Holy spirit are the same thing. The baptism was not available before Pentecost, because the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, the Agent of that baptism (noted in the Ez passage), was not yet given. This Promise was realized at Pentecost. Before that, nobody was placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ.

It was not something given to all individuals in the Old Covenant. That indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a result of the person and work of Christ being applied to us, through regeneration -----in being born again. Jesus tells us in John 3 that that happens first, though all else follows and at the same time, yet distinct "events". And all of it monergistic.

But you can't be born again without being "in Christ". The baptism is the means of that immersion, placing into. There was some regeneration in the OT that could not be born again, as I noted. We can see these limitations in scripture. Especially with the Apostles both before and after the baptism with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

What happened at Pentecost was the visible sign of John the Baptist saying Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11)

Exactly. Emphasis on "would". Before that, no one could be placed into Christ. Before that there was not death and resurrection to be born again with.

The Holy Spirit regenerates, applies the work of Jesus to the believer, joining us to him.

But there is no work to apply to a believer before Pentecost, that's why the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit baptism had to wait until Pentecost. Being joined with Jesus before that doesn't save a person because the work that saves was not yet accomplished.

Regeneration is the cause of faith.

I agree, but it's not being born again pre faith and OT. It's something different and separate from being born again.

Regeneration and being born again are the same thing and without it there can be no faith.

This is where we part ways. I agree that born again is regeneration, but disagree that it encompasses the whole of what regeneration means. There is a pre faith regeneration that happens before we are born again. It can't be born again, because being born again is the result of faith, not the cause. In other words, regeneration caused the faith, but not being born again. I believe that we see this simpler form of regeneration in the OT. In other words, I believe that the regeneration that we see in the OT is the same regeneration that we see in pre faith Christians being drawn to Christ. It seems to be a stepping stone of regeneration in the NT, but that's all the regeneration that the OT believers had. Kind of a barbaric regeneration, for lack of a better term.

With it, there is faith, There are no stages of salvation, no being in a place of being partly saved, or having only some of the ingredients of salvation. All the "ingredients" of salvation, regeneration, faith, union with Christ, justification etc. are distinct, but they are not separate.

Before faith, there has to be a regeneration, at least to a degree, that causes faith, but it cannot be the regeneration that results from being born again, because being born again is the result of faith, not the cause of it.

If you want to break this topic down, I'm fine with that. With that I'm out of time. Thanks for your patience.

Dave

 

[makesends]

Without reading your OP, (though I did), it is plain your title is wrong. They are at least synonymous, if not the very same thing. Generated Again, Re-born.

 

[Arial]

The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the baptism with the Holy spirit are the same thing.

I agree. I was just not sure how you were using it. As I am sure you are aware, there are segments in the church who separate the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The baptism was not available before Pentecost, because the Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit, the Agent of that baptism (noted in the Ez passage), was not yet given. This Promise was realized at Pentecost. Before that, nobody was placed into/immersed/baptized into Christ.

It was not available to all covenant people before Pentecost. David clearly had the Holy Spirit. At one point he asked God to not take the Holy Spirit from him. There were many OT saints, even before the Mosaic Covenant was given. Abraham is a prime example and directly relates to this, and through covenant. There was one covenant made with Abraham, with two distinct parts. One for his descendants for the land and God being their God in covenant relationship. The one true and living God, speaking, acting etc. within history, as contrasted to all the deaf and dumb and powerless gods of all the surrounding nations.

The other, was the covenant of faith counted as righteousness which in due time would include all nations, not just the descendants of Jacob, or the land, but all the land of the world.

So how does this tie into the subject at hand? Both distinct covenants were active. The Mosaic covenant did not remove the promise to Abraham of faith counted as righteousness that would bless all the nations. It did not stop its progression. And the New Covenant did not replace the Mosaic Covenant, but fulfilled it.

So it cannot be said that God never baptised anyone with the Holy Spirit, resulting in regeneration, prior to Pentecost. He likely did so since salvation has always been by faith, and never by law. And we know that the faith necessary to believe God, and therefore trust, love, and obey him, is not something the fallen human race possesses within themselves, but it must be given to them by God. We know that spiritual things cannot be discerned without the Holy Spirit.

God elected those he gave his Spirit to in the OC, just as surely as he does in the New Covenant, and to serve his purposes. Yes, the promise of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all those God gives to Christ, Jew and Gentile alike, arrived at Pentecost, but that was not in a vacuum. And yes, the New Covenant mediator arrived as a baby in a manger on one glorious morning. He did his work of perfect righteousness and went to the cross to make substitutionary atonement finishing that work. And rose again, and returned to the Father, as King and mediating priest.

But there has never been a time when Christ was not, only a time when he was not incarnate. What the OT believers have not yet experienced is the resurrection of their own bodies. The difference between the old covenant and the new covenant is through whom we come to God. There is no way now but through faith in the person and work of Jesus, because it is Jesus we must be united to in order to obtain his imputed righteousness. Justified before God. The ones the Father is giving him. He was giving people to Christ in the old covenant too. Those he chose to give to him.

 

[Dave]

Without reading your OP, (though I did), it is plain your title is wrong. They are at least synonymous, if not the very same thing. Generated Again, Re-born.

I know you don't see it this way, but I believe that there are two different contexts for born again and regeneration. They are synonymous only to a degree, but in the full context of regeneration, being born again stops short of that. For that reason, taken at face level, I would say that they are not synonymous unless the smaller context is considered and noted. Like ordain is the full context of God's sovereignty, and predestine is a part of that bigger context, but only a part. While predestine is always under the title of ordained, ordained is not necessarily always the same as predestined because the context of ordained is much bigger than the context of predestined. Likewise, I believe that being born again is regeneration, but regeneration is not necessarily born again, but can be in the smaller context. I hope that is not too scatter brained for anyone to understand. I know my writing can be difficult to understand sometimes.

Dave

 

[Dave]

I agree. I was just not sure how you were using it. As I am sure you are aware, there are segments in the church who separate the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Right. I'll try to connect those dots with this post. We need to start building.

It was not available to all covenant people before Pentecost. David clearly had the Holy Spirit. At one point he asked God to not take the Holy Spirit from him. There were many OT saints, even before the Mosaic Covenant was given. Abraham is a prime example and directly relates to this, and through covenant. There was one covenant made with Abraham, with two distinct parts. One for his descendants for the land and God being their God in covenant relationship. The one true and living God, speaking, acting etc. within history, as contrasted to all the deaf and dumb and powerless gods of all the surrounding nations.

Yes, David had the Holy Spirit. There is a work by the Holy Spirit in the OT. But it's short of what the NT indwelling gives.

So it cannot be said that God never baptised anyone with the Holy Spirit, resulting in regeneration, prior to Pentecost. He likely did so since salvation has always been by faith, and never by law. And we know that the faith necessary to believe God, and therefore trust, love, and obey him, is not something the fallen human race possesses within themselves, but it must be given to them by God. We know that spiritual things cannot be discerned without the Holy Spirit.

Nobody was in Christ before Pentecost. That's why we call it the birth of the Church. So there was no baptism yet. The agent of that baptism was prophesied to be given, but was not given until Pentecost. This is why the OT saints were kept in Shoel, Abrahams bosom. The legality of their salvation needed to be satisfied, that being, the righteous/sinless life of incarnate Jesus and His death on the cross. Think of it this way, it was owed to them (they had faith), it was degreed for the elect, but God's Holiness/Justice doesn't accept righteous credit, or atonement credit, it had to actually happen before any believer could be in His presence. This is why OT saint had to wait in Shoel/Hades. It's like a holding cell (captivity captive). They were not born again (John 3:5,13), nor could they be, because there was not yet a death and resurrection so that they could die and be raised up in. And the means of us becoming in Christ, the Holy Spirit baptism, was not yet available. Even in the Ez. passage that you gave, it spoke about this as a future event. If they already had this "Promise of the Father", it would not be a future event. Jesus, even up to His last moments before His death on the cross, spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit and the "promise" (EZ passage) of the Father that was about to be given.

I think it would be best if we started out with being born again. What are the spiritual mechanics of being born again? How does it happen. I know you probably get all this, but please bear with me. We need to build this through scripture.

I'll post four passages that are critical and foundational to understanding everything here. But first, I want to talk about the resurrection. All through out scripture we are told that we are saved through the resurrection of Jesus. That we are raised up with Him. We see this everywhere in the NT. I'll post a few just to get started.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

My personal favorite. Eph 2:1-10ish. What I like the most is that the first part speaks of spiritual death, and the second part speaks of the spiritual life. Both of these are separated by a simple statement that can easily be overlooked. I'll highlight it.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I'm sure that you can probably think of many more passages like this off of the top of your head. Now, what is important to realize is that being raised up with Him IS synonymous with being born again. They mean the same thing. Now to the four passages that speak of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. These are all post Pentecost and past the transition period from the OC to the NC, so these passages are the norm for today. Each further defines the other. These are extremely important so ponder on them for a while if you like.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Colossians 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Romans 6:3-10 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

What do we get from this? It is a spiritual baptism. It's a baptism initiated by faith (I know, don't get too deep here.). A baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. And it places us into/immerses us with/baptizes us in Christ. It makes us one with Him, just as He is one with the Father. At this point, we are now in Christ, in the Church, a Spiritual Body. One of the benefits of that spiritual union is we are born again. We die spiritually, and are raised up with Him. Saved through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In the Colossians passage it says that being born again (spiritual circumcision) is done as a result of being "in Him", and is not the cause of us being in Him. These passages reveal a lot if you look closely. All speak of the resurrection saving us. Galatians says the baptism is a baptism through faith, etc. And we know that being born again is the result of this union, not the cause.

The legality is also satisfied as a result of this spiritual union. Without this spiritual union, we are still under God's wrath. With it, we are legally right with God in every way. So the baptism is necessary for salvation. But the baptism has no power to give us this life until there is an actual death and resurrection by Jesus. Until the righteousness of God, Jesus, in His incarnation, as a man, obeyed the Law perfectly. The righteousness of God that is imputed to us doesn't exist to be imputed. The sinlessness that qualifies Him to atone for our sin, and then atonement needs to happen. All of this had to happen first before being placed into immersed into baptized into Christ had anything to give us for salvation. The main point being, without the baptism, and the ingredients, we cannot be saved. Salvation can be promised, as it was with the OT saints, but it had to actually happen for us to actually be made right with God.

Which brings us to the transition from OT to NT. Many things were said about this coming of the Holy Spirit. The Promise of the Father. All of these promises, through the Promise, even OT saints dead, kept in Hades, and OT saints still living in faith, were due the Promises. They all had to wait for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus for the ingredients to be fulfilled. Then, the Holy Spirit, the Promise of the Father, the Agent of that baptism that saves us, could be given to given to every believer who was owed the Promise and promises. God did this first with the Jew, then with the Gentile. After everyone who believed Jesus and put their faith in Him before His death, resurrection, and ascension was given the Promise that they were owed (Holy Spirit baptism), then every believer from that point on received the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus the moment that they first believe.

Dave

 

[Dave]

BTW, you don't need to reply to the whole post. I'm just trying to be thorough.

 

[Dave]

If you ask a modern day reformer to prove that a person is born again in the OT, they just point to verses that speak of regeneration. They do the same with pre faith NT Christians. This idea is built on the assumption that regeneration and born again are synonymous, hence the title of the thread. It's an assumption that, as far as I know, has never been proven, it's just assumed. Charismatics and Pentecostals do the same with their definition of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. They claim that the baptism with the Holy Spirit must be something extra because they also assume that every believer before the cross was already born again. Yes, reformed and liberal theologians building doctrines on the same assumption.

I don't know if this thing goes full circle, or where it goes, but it would be interesting to find out. As far as a I know, this was not a topic that reformed theologians went into very deep. They generally spoke around it. Maybe they had bigger fish to fry. Calvin's understanding in this matter was buried in Catholic false teachings. Owens believed that OT saints were born again. That's why I don't take him very seriously. I think this is a predominately new error with reformed people. It's a shame that it's never challenged more often because it should be. Anyways, that's all for today.

Dave

 

[Hazelelponi]

BTW, you don't need to reply to the whole post. I'm just trying to be thorough.

Just curious, how do you see our justification when we respond in faith?

 

[Arial]

Yes, David had the Holy Spirit. There is a work by the Holy Spirit in the OT. But it's short of what the NT indwelling gives.

Sometimes we see the holy Spirit equipping certain people, always elected by God, for specific purposes. That is not indwelling and it is not regeneration and it is not the new birth. With others it was different because they were appointed by God for the purpose of furthering the kingdom----moving redemption forwards through time and history. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and they cannot be discerned without the Spirit. Where do you think David got all that knowledge of God that we see him express in the Psalms?

But the conversation has shifted from the position that regeneration and born again are not the same thing, to the indwelling or not indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Either that or things are being conflated without identifying the conflation.

Regeneration is simply the word that theologians have historically applied to the new birth. It uses them as synonyms. So to argue against that is introducing a conflict that doesn't exist and teaching against a doctrine that doesn't exist.

Nobody was in Christ before Pentecost.

That is the real issue that is being addressed. But let me ask you this: Was Christ in God before Pentecost? Does the Bible tells us that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8) This is from the eternal perspective. His physical crucifixion happened in first-century Jerusalem, but the plan for redemption existed in the eternal counsel of God before time began. So in my opinion, it is going too far, speculating on things we cannot know or see, and stating them as fact, to say the OT saints were not in Christ. Entrance into a covenant relationship with God is what changed, for the purpose (one of them) of creating the church----a community of the redeemed, (God's people). It became through faith in the person and work of Jesus, instead of trust and faith in God, who had prophesied this coming one,----they had heard it and of his suffering and death and resurrection. So----who can know the mind of God?

The legality of their salvation needed to be satisfied, that being, the righteous/sinless life of incarnate Jesus and His death on the cross. Think of it this way, it was owed to them (they had faith), it was degreed for the elect, but God's Holiness/Justice doesn't accept righteous credit, or atonement credit, it had to actually happen before any believer could be in His presence.

Are you sure? For one thing, God owes no one anything. But aside from that what does Scripture say about that?

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:6 And he believed the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness.

This is why the OT saints were kept in Shoel, Abrahams bosom.

This expression is used only once in the Bible. Luke 16:22. There is disagreement over whether or not this is a parable but it likely is as Jesus has just given a parable and often taught through parables. And as is the case with all his parables he uses things that are familiar to his audience as illustrations, here he uses the Jewish concept of the afterlife. The term "Abrahams bosom" was understood as a figurative expression denoting a place of comfort in the afterlife, associated with being in close fellowship with Abraham, the patriarch of Israel. It was the Jewish beliefs of that time that saw the righteous dead being gathered to their ancestors. Jesus was not actually discussing this belief in relation to the afterlife, or saying the Jewish beliefs was correct or incorrect, but he was actually coming against their understanding of who was comforted in the afterlife and rewarded in the afterlife. It was not necessarily those who had abundance in this life. And those who have little in this life are often the ones who receive the rewards. There also existed culturally among the Pharisees and their teachings, that blessings in this life indicated that they were approved by God.

I am going to have to stop there and will come back to the next stuff later.

 

[Arial]

They were not born again (John 3:5,13), nor could they be, because there was not yet a death and resurrection so that they could die and be raised up in.

Look at it as much as is possible for the finite mind, from the eternal perspective----God's perspective. What does it say about the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11? By faith all these were counted as righteous.

Verses 13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking God that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is a heavenly one. Therefore God is ot ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Verses 24-26 Bt faith MOses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth that the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.

39-40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

And in case you think those last verses are verification of your position when it comes to being regenerated but not reborn, it does not. It is simply saying that they did not witness what they hoped for so that those who are born after them, and born after the arrival of the New Covenant, are included in the kingdom of God with them. And none of us have received the full promise yet. His people are still being gathered.

This is why OT saint had to wait in Shoel/Hades. It's like a holding cell (captivity captive).

So the Protestant version of purgatory? Paul says when we die we go to be with the Lord while we await his return and the resurrection of our bodies. Did the OT saints not go to be with the Lord but remain in a holding cell?

They were not born again (John 3:5,13), nor could they be, because there was not yet a death and resurrection so that they could die and be raised up in.

In eternity---outside of time---and in the Eternal---Father Son Holy Spirit ----there always is. No was or will be about it. I do not think you fully understand John 3 and Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. No one can see or enter the Kingdom of God unless----he is born again of the Spirit. Maybe John 1: 12-13 will make it clearer. A person must be changed before they can understand and believe and submit to God. Being changed from what something is to something different, is the very definition of regenerated. Born again of the Spirit (God) is the very definition of the regeneration that must take place. To reduce it to its accomplishment: "Out of Adam and into Christ." Turning to God whereas the entire being was turned away from him. Jesus, in John 3, relates it to the New Covenant and the New Covenant way because he is the mediator of that covenant and the one who does the work of it. There were people in the NT who believed and were saved before Christ's death and resurrection. Are they too in a holding cell? The birth of the church is not the same thing as the new birth of an individual. They both occur by the same means -----God through the Holy Spirit----but they are not the same thing. The church is not reborn. It is made up of reborn people. People who have been regenerated. (out of Adam and into Christ through faith). What we see at Pentecost is the evidence given of a new people of God, in a new covenant. That covenant community is called Christ's church, made up of Jew and Gentile alike and consisting of all nations and types of people.

 

[Dave]

Just curious, how do you see our justification when we respond in faith?

Our justification is instantaneous the moment that we are placed "in Christ". That's the baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. The NT seal/indwelling. In Christ the legality of our salvation is satisfied by His sinlessness - His atonement and His righteousness. Everything that we have to offer is given to us as a result of our being one with Him, in Christ.

 

[Dave]

Sometimes we see the holy Spirit equipping certain people, always elected by God, for specific purposes. That is not indwelling and it is not regeneration and it is not the new birth. With others it was different because they were appointed by God for the purpose of furthering the kingdom----moving redemption forwards through time and history. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and they cannot be discerned without the Spirit. Where do you think David got all that knowledge of God that we see him express in the Psalms?

David got that knowledge from the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. But, there is a difference in the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit from the OT to the NT, would you agree? I'm not claiming that the OT was absent the Holy Spirit, but I am claiming that the relationship was different and in many ways limited from the OT side to the NT.

Hebrews 11:39. And all these (OT saints), having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

But the conversation has shifted from the position that regeneration and born again are not the same thing, to the indwelling or not indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Either that or things are being conflated without identifying the conflation.

These are both part of the issue. As you have stated, it's a big topic.

Regeneration is simply the word that theologians have historically applied to the new birth. It uses them as synonyms. So to argue against that is introducing a conflict that doesn't exist and teaching against a doctrine that doesn't exist.

The conflict is in the context, they are not the same context. If I said that there was regeneration in both the OT and the NT, that would be correct. They're different, but they are both regeneration. If I said that everyone in the OT was born again just like the NT, that would be a HU-HU-HUGE error (DR. Perry Cox from Scrubs imitation). Nobody was born again until they could be placed in Christ, and only after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension. It's easy to prove this with Scripture, as I believe that I already have. I don't see the problem with pointing this out.

That is the real issue that is being addressed. But let me ask you this: Was Christ in God before Pentecost?

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”
John 14:20 "On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you."

Jesus was, but believers weren't. Not until that day, Pentecost.

Does the Bible tells us that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8) This is from the eternal perspective. His physical crucifixion happened in first-century Jerusalem, but the plan for redemption existed in the eternal counsel of God before time began. So in my opinion, it is going too far, speculating on things we cannot know or see, and stating them as fact, to say the OT saints were not in Christ. Entrance into a covenant relationship with God is what changed, for the purpose (one of them) of creating the church----a community of the redeemed, (God's people). It became through faith in the person and work of Jesus, instead of trust and faith in God, who had prophesied this coming one,----they had heard it and of his suffering and death and resurrection. So----who can know the mind of God?

There is no speculation. Everything that I've argued comes from scripture. Baptism means to be place into, to immerse. This is what the baptism does, it places us into Christ. No baptism, no "in Christ" The Holy Spirit, the Promise of the Father given in Acts, was the Agent of that baptism. When we come in faith, Jesus places Himself in us by way of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwelling is the baptism, the placing into, the immersion that makes us "in Christ". We are placed into the Church, Jesus, actually in Him.

Are you sure? For one thing, God owes no one anything. But aside from that what does Scripture say about that?

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:6 And he believed the Lord and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Yes, I'm sure. He said it like this.

Romans 3:22-26 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

OT saint were kept in Abrahams bosom, the Paradise side of Shoel/Hades until the cross.

This expression is used only once in the Bible. Luke 16:22. There is disagreement over whether or not this is a parable but it likely is as Jesus has just given a parable and often taught through parables. And as is the case with all his parables he uses things that are familiar to his audience as illustrations, here he uses the Jewish concept of the afterlife. The term "Abrahams bosom" was understood as a figurative expression denoting a place of comfort in the afterlife, associated with being in close fellowship with Abraham, the patriarch of Israel. It was the Jewish beliefs of that time that saw the righteous dead being gathered to their ancestors. Jesus was not actually discussing this belief in relation to the afterlife, or saying the Jewish beliefs was correct or incorrect, but he was actually coming against their understanding of who was comforted in the afterlife and rewarded in the afterlife. It was not necessarily those who had abundance in this life. And those who have little in this life are often the ones who receive the rewards. There also existed culturally among the Pharisees and their teachings, that blessings in this life indicated that they were approved by God.

I am going to have to stop there and will come back to the next stuff later.

Parables don't use names. Here's a quote.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

Although this passage in Luke shows a characteristic of an O.T. historical account, for the beggar's name was specifically given as a proper name - not a symbolic one: "a certain poor man named Lazarus". And since, the passage refers to yet another O. T. historical individual: "Father Abraham". And since all attempts to treat this as a completely symbolic parable that teaches anything but death or the afterlife end up in farfetched interpretations that violate clear doctrinal passages on these subjects; consider another option which best fits the rest of Scripture and has precedent in the rabbinical literary form of Jesus' day:

[Morey op. cit., pp. 85-87]: "The rabbinic literature before, during, and after the time of Christ is filled with parables which built imaginative stories around real historical characters. There are multiple examples in the Talmud and Midrash of parables in which Abraham had dialogues with people such as Nimrod, with whom he could never have spoken literally. Everyone understood that these parables and dialogues did not literally take place.

[Yet what was being taught by the fictitious account was indeed literal]

It was understood that the rabbis used imaginative stories and dialogues as a teaching method. It was understood by all that these dialogues never took place..

...Christ used a rabbinic story and dialogue in Luke 16:19-31 which was not 'true' or 'real' in the sense of being literal [in a historical sense, but literal indeed in what it is teaching]. It is obvious that Lazarus did not literally sit in Abraham's literal bosom. The rich man did not have literal lips which literal water could quench.

What is important for us to grasp is that Christ used the mental images conjured up by this rabbinic parable to teach that, in the hereafter, the wicked experience torment and the righteous bliss. This is clear from the rabbinic sources from which he drew this parable.

Since the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham was a teaching tool used by the rabbis before Christ, it is obvious that Christ was not trying to teach that we will talk with the wicked in the hereafter. He was merely using the dialogue method to get across the concept that there is no escape from torment, no second chance, and we must believe the Scriptures in this life unto salvation.

" [Morey, cont.]:

"Before Christ's ascension, believers as well as unbelievers were said to enter Sheol or Hades. After Christ's ascension, the New Testament pictures believers after death as entering heaven to be with Christ...(Phil 1:23), which is far better than Hades.

More later[/I]

 

[Arial]

I'll post four passages that are critical and foundational to understanding everything here. But first, I want to talk about the resurrection. All through out scripture we are told that we are saved through the resurrection of Jesus. That we are raised up with Him. We see this everywhere in the NT. I'll post a few just to get started.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

My personal favorite. Eph 2:1-10ish. What I like the most is that the first part speaks of spiritual death, and the second part speaks of the spiritual life. Both of these are separated by a simple statement that can easily be overlooked. I'll highlight it.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Who are those letters written to and why? All are believers and are speaking of our inheritance. They are in no way dealing with the OT saints and to use the idea of resurrection as a way to say the OT saints are being held captive (reference to your parenthetical remark concerning them of "captiviity captive" and their being held in a cell). No one has been resurrected yet, and all the saints in Christ will be resurrected at the same time. Are you trying to say as some do, that it is a retroactive salvation? Tell me how that is possible in the mind of the eternal God or where it says it in scripture, if you are.

What do we get from this? It is a spiritual baptism. It's a baptism initiated by faith (I know, don't get too deep here.). A baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. And it places us into/immerses us with/baptizes us in Christ. It makes us one with Him, just as He is one with the Father. At this point, we are now in Christ, in the Church, a Spiritual Body. One of the benefits of that spiritual union is we are born again.

If, as Jesus says, we must be born again before we can enter his kingdom, how then do we have faith and are united with him before we are born again? We are born again FOR the spiritual union.

The righteousness of God that is imputed to us doesn't exist to be imputed. The sinlessness that qualifies Him to atone for our sin, and then atonement needs to happen. All of this had to happen first before being placed into immersed into baptized into Christ had anything to give us for salvation. The main point being, without the baptism, and the ingredients, we cannot be saved. Salvation can be promised, as it was with the OT saints, but it had to actually happen for us to actually be made right with God.

All of this had to happen before the new covenant community, the new people of God that is with all nations and not just Israel could be made. You cannot say definitively that what you say concerning the OT saints is not true, which amounts to, as I see it, saying they were saved by faith but not saved. So you have made a distinction where there is none. Between the historic theological definition of "born again" being also stated as regeneration.

Which brings us to the transition from OT to NT. Many things were said about this coming of the Holy Spirit. The Promise of the Father. All of these promises, through the Promise, even OT saints dead, kept in Hades, and OT saints still living in faith, were due the Promises. They all had to wait for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus for the ingredients to be fulfilled. Then, the Holy Spirit, the Promise of the Father, the Agent of that baptism that saves us, could be given to given to every believer who was owed the Promise and promises. God did this first with the Jew, then with the Gentile. After everyone who believed Jesus and put their faith in Him before His death, resurrection, and ascension was given the Promise that they were owed (Holy Spirit baptism), then every believer from that point on received the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus the moment that they first believe.

What they were waiting for, what we are all waiting for, is Christ's return, the resurrection of our bodies, , the death of death, the utter destruction of evil, the evil one, and unbelievers, the new heaven and the new earth, and God dwelling with us.

 

[Arial]

If I said that everyone in the OT was born again just like the NT, that would be a HU-HU-HUGE error (DR. Perry Cox from Scrubs imitation)

Fortunately no one has said that. So what exactly are you arguing against?

Listen, these posts are too long, requiring other long posts, and nothing is going to be accomplished by it so, I'm out.