Questions on Sanctification

[Alive]

The earthly vessel is for most, but we certainly aren’t.

 

[Arial]

Regarding sanctification.
I suppose I will jump in here with a few thoughts that may be of some help to folks dropping in. Many of you folks are quite learned, but perhaps some are just beginning in their walk.
I think in terms of two analogies, neither of which are perfect, but have been of some help to me over the years.
1. A tree
2. The land

When God made us Alive 'In Christ' the source of our life changed from the earthly to the heavenly. He essentially and in a very real way severed us from the kingdom of darkness and into His Kingdom. We being like a tree uprooted and turned upside down with our roots now in the heavens. However, the branches are still in this earthly realm and subject to much of what this realm exudes. Our branches are always catching flying things that wish to land there and affect our thinking and yank on our flesh. We have this Treasure in earthen vessels. Through His word (scriptures) rhema and our brethren, we learn to shew away those birds. God will touch something in us and we respond with a "yes Lord", thus agreeing with Him and 'changed'. This is all the Lord's doing. It is only because of 'New Life' that we are able to say 'Yes Lord'.

The other is the 'Land' and I will attempt to connect this aspect of our ongoing sanctification to His Kingdom.
When the Israelites were entering the Land and one way or another the inhabitants were driven out or not, the Lord was establishing His Kingdom on earth. A place set aside for His purpose and our learning. I see the Land as a metaphor for our ongoing sanctification.
When He touches something in us that is not of Him, and we say 'yes Lord' and thus give our loyalty to Him rather than the flesh and the earth, He reigns there. His Kingdom is in a very real way established. The gates of hell cannot withstand the onslaught of His Victory.
It is needful and healthy to remember that it is all His Working in us.
Jesus said, "you can do nothing without me". "No thing". Not some things, or things of a catagory or another!
No thing.
This is the sense and realization as He works in us; to know deep within our being that we need Him to walk, talk, breathe and think.
Thus we grow toward that place where He is Lord. We decrease as He increases.
Our roots are 'In Him'.

Very good analogy. Also, it is all for His glory and the glory of the Son that we are sanctified while we await the consummation. And we can no more do that sanctifying work apart from Him working in us according to His will and purpose after conversion than we could come to Christ apart from Him working in us leading us to Christ.

 

[Carbon]

@Josheb

Isn’t sanctification getting use to our justification?

 

[Alive]

@Josheb

Isn’t sanctification getting use to our justification?

Never heard that before, but I can see how learning the wonder and power of our Justification helps lead us to loyalty and more agreement as the Lord works in us.
I like it.

 

[Carbon]

Never heard that before, but I can see how learning the wonder and power of our Justification helps lead us to loyalty and more agreement as the Lord works in us.
I like it.

A Lutheran, Forde said it actually. And the more I think on it, the more I agree with him. Though I am not Lutheran

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Questions on Sanctification​

Sanctification in a nutshell: Romans 8:28, 29

 

[Carbon]

Sanctification in a nutshell: Romans 8:28, 29

Interesting Bob. Thanks.

 

[Josheb]

Good question: "Do we start in the Spirit and end in the flesh" @Josheb

YOU SAID: "We are no longer slaves to sin."
RESPONSE: We may not be slaves to sin, but we are still under its judgment which is death.

No.

Those in Christ are not still under judgment.

John 3:16-21
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him. He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

The judgment has already been rendered. Those who do not believe in God's Son are already judged. We believe in the name of God's Son. We are, therefore, not judged.

Romans 6:15-19
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

We are slaves of righteousness, and it results in sanctification. What judgment would there be for a slave of righteousness?

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

This, and other similar verses tell us we will be accountable for every dead and word but this is the most salient verse because it couches the judgment in terms of "compensation." In other words, we speak of "judgment day" even though John 3 tells us the judgment and its verdict has already been rendered. Judgement day is, therefore, best understood in our modern vernacular as "sentencing day," the day when the just recompense for sin is meted out. The day people get their compensation. Those who have sown to the flesh will reap corruption, and those who've sown to the Spirit will reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).

Romans 7:22-8:4
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is NOW no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. When we stand before God already judged we do so believe in God's Son. There is, therefore, NO condemnation. NONE!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Paul was writing about his role as an apostle, but the principle is universally applicable: If a person is building on the foundation of Jesus, then he might build what is perishable when subjected to God's testing, but if s/he has built on Christ s/he may lose everything, come away charred and covered in soot, but s/he will be saved. It is because all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory that James tells those in Christ....

James 2:12-13
So, speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

As a result...

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

It was God's mercy that caused us to be born anew (see also John 3:3).

Jude 1:17-21
But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts." These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Because we have already been shown mercy...... we eagerly await the mercy of Jesus that leads to eternal life . I, therefore, look forward to the judgment day . I could not even stand before God were I not first justified by Christ and had faith in his Son, but believing in His Son I not only can stand before him but even though a was once entirely a slaved to sin, I now profess Jesus as the resurrected King of all kings, and in him there is found eternal life.

Romans 14:10-12
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

My account will be, "I am a sinner who has been purchased by the blood of Christ and I no longer live. Christ now lives in me. The life I now live, I now live through faith from the Son of God, the one having loved me and having given up himself for me" (Gal. 2:20). I have no other defense. None of us do. As a consequence of life in Christ, however,

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

On the day of judgment there will be nothing that can separate me from the love of God found in His Son.

 

[Carbon]

Those who are interested, please read this and let me know your thoughts?

Thanks.

Progress in Sanctification: The invasion of the new.

But is there not such a thing as growth in sanctification, progress in the Christian life? No doubt there is a sense in which we can and even should speak in such a fashion. But when we do, we must take care, if everything we have been saying up to this point is true. If justification by faith alone rejects all ordinary schemes of progress and renders us simultaneously just and sinners, we have to look at growth and progress in quite a different light.
That brings us back to our thesis: sanctification is the art of getting used to justification. There is a kind of growth and progress, it is to be hoped, but growth in grace - a growth in coming to be captivated more and more, if we can so speak, by the totality, the unconditionality of the grace of God. It is a matter of getting used to the fact that if we are to be saved it will have to be by grace alone. We should make no mistake about it; sin is to be conquered and expelled. But if we see that sin is the total state of standing against the unconditional grace and goodness of God, if sin is our very incredulity, unbelief, mistrust, our insistence on falling back on ourselves and maintaining control, then it is only through the total grace of God that sin comes under attack, and only through faith in that total grace that sin is defeated. To repeat: Sin is not defeated by a repair job, but by dying and being raised new.

So it is always as a totality that unconditional grace attacks sin. That is why total sanctification and justification are in essence the same thing. The total sinner comes under attack of the total gift. That is how the battle begins. How then can we talk about the progress of the battle - the transition, let us call it - from sin to righteousness, old to new?
There are, I believe, two aspects of this transition we need to talk about. The first is that since we are always confronted and given grace as a totality, we find ourselves always starting fresh. As Luther put it, "to progress is always to begin again" In this life we never quite get over grace, we never entirely grasp it, we never really learn it. It always takes us by surprise. Again and again, we have to be conquered and captivated by its totality. The transition will never be completed this side of the grave.

Gerhard O. Forde

 

[Carbon]

Another way Forde put it:

In this way, the ordinary views of progress and growth are turned upside down. It is not that we are somehow moving toward the goal, but rather that the goal is moving closer and closer to us.
Forde.

This makes great sense to me as sanctification is monergistic. God is conforming us to the image of Christ.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb

Isn’t sanctification getting use to our justification?

I cannot find the phrase "getting used to" anywhere in my Bible. That is a phrase Gerhard Forde used so I will, once again, point out Forde is Lutheran, not Calvinist. Therefore, anyone using his conceptualization is by definition not asserting a Calvinist point of view. It would then be irrational for the Lutheran apologist to say, "I am Calvinist." It is equally irrational for a Lutheran apologist to imply, "All you Calvinists who disagree with the Lutheran definition of sanctification, 'sanctification is thus simply the art of getting used to justification," are wrong about your Calvinism." No, Calvinists have Calvinism correct, and we use the scriptural definition of sanctification. It is inappropriate to suggest Forde's definition is Calvinist and thereby a valid metric for Calvinists to use (especially since the metric used is nowhere found in scripture and seems to be one of his own invention!).

@Josheb

Isn’t sanctification getting use to our justification?

I wonder why I would be asked that question since I already answered it HERE, and HERE, and HERE, and was openly thanked for that content. No, sanctification is NOT "getting used to justification." Forde is incorrect, his definition is not Calvinist (or something scripture teaches), should not be the measure of the Calvinist view(s), and it's bad form to know my views and then ask me a question I've already answered at great length. Sanctification is the process by which we are made clean and holy (separated for sacred purpose).

I would like to know what asserting Forde is all about, why a non-Calvinist's definition is thought to be the measure of this forum's Calvinists, and why it would be used with those already known to be Cals without telling them it's not a Calvinist pov?

 

[Carbon]

I cannot find the phrase "getting used to" anywhere in my Bible. That is a phrase Gerhard Forde used so I will, once again, point out Forde is Lutheran, not Calvinist so, therefore, anyone using his conceptualization is by definition not asserting a Calvinist point of view. It would then be irrational for the Lutheran apologist to say, "I am Calvinist," and "All you Calvinists who disagree with 'sanctification is thus simply the art of getting used to justification," are wrong about your Calvinism."

No, we have Calvinism correct. It is you who are wrong because Calvinism is being measured by a non-Calvinist metric (and the metric used is nowhere found in scripture!).

I wonder why I would be asked that question since I already answered it HERE, and HERE, and HERE, and was openly thanked for that content.


No, sanctification is NOT getting used to justification. Forde is incorrect and his definition is not Calvinist, should not be the measure of the Calvinist view(s), and it's bad form to know my views and then ask me a question I've already answered at great length.

Perhaps you should look at what the Calvinist Anthony A. Hoekema has to say about it.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps you should look at what the Calvinist Anthony A. Hoekema has to say about it.

A Dutch Calvinist.

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps you should look at what the Calvinist Anthony A. Hoekema has to say about it.

You'll have to be specific. I have read much from Hoekema and it should not have been assumed otherwise.

 

[Carbon]

You'll have to be specific. I have read much from Hoekema and it should not have been assumed otherwise.

Well if it’s important maybe go back and read more?

He does write:
Reformed theologians commonly assert that sanctification continues throughout a believers life, in distinction from justification, which is a definitive act of God, occurring once for all. Though the NT often describes sanctification as a lifelong process, there is also an important sense in which scripture depicts it as an act of God that is definitive - that is, that occurs at a point in time rather than along a timeline. John Murray, in fact, observes: “it is a fact to frequently overlooked that in the NT the most characteristic terms that refer to sanctification are used, not of a process, but of a once-for-all definitive act.”
A Hokema.

At this point in what he writes, is it difficult to see what Forde is talking about? I believe it blends in with this Calvinist’s Calvinism nicely.

Consider 1 Corinthians 1:2 for example

 

[Carbon]

Well if it’s important maybe go back and read more?

He does write:
Reformed theologians commonly assert that sanctification continues throughout a believers life, in distinction from justification, which is a definitive act of God, occurring once for all. Though the NT often describes sanctification as a lifelong process, there is also an important sense in which scripture depicts it as an act of God that is definitive - that is, that occurs at a point in time rather than along a timeline. John Murray, in fact, observes: “it is a fact to frequently overlooked that in the NT the most characteristic terms that refer to sanctification are used, not of a process, but of a once-for-all definitive act.”
A Hokema.

At this point in what he writes, is it difficult to see what Forde is talking about? I believe it blends in with this Calvinist’s Calvinism nicely.

Consider 1 Corinthians 1:2 for example

Considering this by Hokema so far, sanctification is just getting used to justification don’t seem so foreign after all, does it?

 

[Carbon]

Also,
Paul teaches that believers have died to sin, and also teaches that we have been raised with Christ.
Scripture does not teach us that we must be progressively raised up with Christ.
The power of sin has been broken we are no longer enslaved to it and we now have an irreversible union with Christ. Because of this union we are able to live the Christian life. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling, is something natural for a believer. As we should fear and tremble when we sin because we are a new creation in Christ. And we should count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Hokema also says,
Definitive sanctification is simultaneous with justification, as an aspect of union with Christ.

 

[Alive]

Also,
Paul teaches that believers have died to sin, and also teaches that we have been raised with Christ.
Scripture does not teach us that we must be progressively raised up with Christ.
The power of sin has been broken we are no longer enslaved to it and we now have an irreversible union with Christ. Because of this union we are able to live the Christian life. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling, is something natural for a believer. As we should fear and tremble when we sin because we are a new creation in Christ. And we should count ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ.

This is well said. And very important to latch onto.

 

[Carbon]

I don’t think anyone denies that we must fight against sin our entire lives. Since we can do this only through the strength of the Spirit, the struggle against sin must be understood as an aspect of our sanctification.