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Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

Not my will, but thine be done.
So from that your surmise that Jesus' will was different than the Father's will and that He had not been "consulted" on the plan of redemption?
 
a Born Again cannot be taught by another spirit...
Oh yes they can. Otherwise Jesus and the apostles would not have presented such dire warnings about not recognizing false teachers.
 
5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5)
Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

I have never ever online in 20 years ever written it said anything to contradict the above .
So you no longer think Jesus was only a divine person, but rather that his one person was both human and divine,
or that I am conflating his natures and his person?
 
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Oh yes they can. Otherwise Jesus and the apostles would not have presented such dire warnings about not recognizing false teachers.
Rita says...They can be taught falsely, is what I meant...but, if they are Born Again, the Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth eventually ..it has to do with God’s timing.

What I meant was...A Born again cannot receive another spirit into their spirit...impossible.
 
We are to test the spirits


A Born Again cannot be Accursed by the Holy Spirit....scripture please?
Read the post you are responding to again, slowly and carefully. It did not say what you concluded it said.
 
Except there is a reason why that text, though it means what it says, does not mean what some are saying it means. Those reasons have been given and are ignored. So the reason bottom line, is that if it means what some say it means, it completely contradicts the very person of Christ as given in the rest of the scripture, and especially what Jesus Himself had to say about it about Himself. That is why it can't possibly mean what some are saying it means. There is an ocean of difference between what a text means according to God, and it only has one meaning, and all the meanings people give it.

A person certainly doesn't need to argue about it but there are also some who really care about getting at the true meaning of scripture rather than simply saying what I believe is good enough.
You fall under the "it can't possibly mean that" category. Check. Whatever "that" is. You and I might be talking past one another.

I think my entire outlook here is that Jesus knew what was coming. He didn't like it. He wasn't, as some say, looking forward to the experience. He, in his humanity, would have it be different if possible *but* that was irrelevant in the face of the Father's will. He wasn't forced. He went willingly. He endured by fixing His gaze on what was to come. Very very human. Very very God.

Now you can all run too and fro and froth at the mouth but that's what it says. I can *explain* the Trinity just fine. I don't *understand* completely. I don't think anyone does. Fortunately it isn't critical that I understand it completely. Same thing here.

So feel free to label me whatever you like. I can take it. :p
 
You fall under the "it can't possibly mean that" category. Check. Whatever "that" is. You and I might be talking past one another.
I know what I think you mean.

They couldn’t possibly be wrong.or it doesn’t mean that.....I would hate to think I am never wrong..of course I am........LOL...just my thoughts.
 
Wrong I developed my own Hypostatic Union many years ago through my personal studies. Its 100 % Biblical and Orthodox.

Hypostatic Union

1.
Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry.

Chist is one person comprised of two natures and that these natures never co-mingle or mix. He most certainly acts as one person for as you and I said that what he is. But, some things according to one nature and others according to the other. Christ is fully aware of His deity just as He is His humanity. However, it has been taught that Christ does indeed have two distinct minds/will, one human and the other the divine will. The human will is at all times subjected to the divine will. At times the divine will remains quiescent so that Christ has a truly human development. "He grew in wisdom and stature ... " (Luke 2:52); "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (Mark 13:32); "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done" (Luke 22:42). These passages should make it clear that Jesus' human mind/will is distinct from the divine will which He nonetheless possesses in His divine nature. If Christ, who indeed is both God and man in one person, has a conjoined or co-mingled divine-human will, then either His divine will was diminished at times or His human will augmented or both. Christ would have had to be lying when He says He does not know the day or the hour and can read the orthodox position witht the "Monothelite Controversy" which covered this aspect of the person of Christ.

To act is the work of a person but the nature of a person is the cause of the action; for each person acts in accord with the nature that it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures; i.e., human and divine, there are also different activities. So in the one person of Christ there are two natural activities driven by two natural wills, the divine and human. We say that the human will wills whatever the divine will wills it to will. The Monothelite Controversy and the Sixth General council of which the summary definition was that "Two natural wills and two natural activities are shown in our one Lord Christ."

hope this helps !!!
Careful...people are going to start calling you a Calvinist again.
 
The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.
By this do you mean the two natures were not mixed or combined at any point, but remained distinct in one person? If so I agree, as I agree to all you have presented up to this point. I shall continue.
5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)
I have had trouble with this one in the past, first simply because I didn't know (amazing what we are not taught after years and years in churches full of no teaching or false teaching) though I wondered a great deal about it. And second because in viewing it that way I cannot prevent my mind from seeing what would amount to two God's. Which I know to be false. The mind drawing pictures of what is beyond its understanding.) But I am getting better at it by simply accepting it since it is what the Bible says. I will know what it looks like when I get there.
Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry.
Excellent. I don't know that I have ever heard it expressed more accurately and succinctly. And that goes for the rest of the post which I just finished. I recommend that @Eleanor and @Ritajanice actually read it paying close attention, rather than bypassing it because they can't be bothered with long posts, even if it might be of great value in growth and learning.

Time to put our money where our mouth is when we claim to come here to learn.
 
You fall under the "it can't possibly mean that" category.
That's because it can't mean what some say it means, that Jesus had a will that was opposed to the will of God, but did God's will anyway, and be consistent with other teachings of the Bible. :) It simply means that His human nature dreaded what was to come. He wouldn't be human if He didn't. It means He was suffering the maximum suffering of the Suffering Servant.
I think my entire outlook here is that Jesus knew what was coming. He didn't like it. He wasn't, as some say, looking forward to the experience. He, in his humanity, would have it be different if possible *but* that was irrelevant in the face of the Father's will. He wasn't forced. He went willingly. He endured by fixing His gaze on what was to come. Very very human. Very very God.

Now you can all run too and fro and froth at the mouth but that's what it says. I can *explain* the Trinity just fine. I don't *understand* completely. I don't think anyone does. Fortunately it isn't critical that I understand it completely. Same thing here.
Agree.
So feel free to label me whatever you like. I can take it.
I didn't/don't label you as anything. A simple response is simply a response.
 
I recommend that @Eleanor and @Ritajanice actually read it paying close attention, rather than bypassing it because they can't be bothered with long posts,
Can you please stop with your accusations....rather than bypassing it because they can’t be bothered with long posts.

Are you able to read my mind/ thoughts?

Scripture please?
 
Can you please stop with your accusations....rather than bypassing it because they can’t be bothered with long posts.

Are you able to read my mind/ thoughts?

Scripture please?
I suggest you not be so over sensitive and confrontational on a forum. You are bound to hear things you don't like. I made no accusation. Not reading long posts is the normal for a great many posters. I bypassed that post myself at first and then found out it was worth the read. I brought it to your attention because I thought it would be helpful to you. But I will never do it again.
 
I suggest you not be so over sensitive and confrontational on a forum. You are bound to hear things you don't like. I made no accusation. Not reading long posts is the normal for a great many posters. I bypassed that post myself at first and then found out it was worth the read. I brought it to your attention because I thought it would be helpful to you. But I will never do it again.
For me I generally don’t read long posts. It depends on the poster and topic for me.
 
Did Jesus not have a human will?....I’m listening.
I already explained that. You said you couldn't understand it. Read Civic's post 422 if you would like a concise and expounded answer. He presents it better than I did, better than I have come across. And it is fully supported.
 
Do you not believe in a triune God? Do you not believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe He is a created being, a creature like us? I am trying to clarify your position so that I know, not as an accusation.
@Ritajanice Are you going to answer these questions?
 
For me I generally don’t read long posts. It depends on the poster and topic for me.
Same here. When I came across that one I needed to get through all my alerts before I tackled it, then let it slip away.
 
By this do you mean the two natures were not mixed or combined at any point, but remained distinct in one person? If so I agree, as I agree to all you have presented up to this point. I shall continue.
I have had trouble with this one in the past, first simply because I didn't know (amazing what we are not taught after years and years in churches full of no teaching or false teaching) though I wondered a great deal about it. And second because in viewing it that way I cannot prevent my mind from seeing what would amount to two God's. Which I know to be false. The mind drawing pictures of what is beyond its understanding.) But I am getting better at it by simply accepting it since it is what the Bible says. I will know what it looks like when I get there.
Excellent. I don't know that I have ever heard it expressed more accurately and succinctly. And that goes for the rest of the post which I just finished. I recommend that @Eleanor and @Ritajanice actually read it paying close attention,
"Close attention to" is following:
5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5)
Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)
So, according to the above, the one person is both divine and human, not just divine,
and only the antichrist denies it.
rather than bypassing it because they can't be bothered with long posts, even if it might be of great value in growth and learning.
Time to put our money where our mouth is when we claim to come here to learn.
The mouth seems to be the above.
 
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"Close attention to" is following:

So, according to the above, the one person is both divine and human, not just divine,
and only the antichrist denies it.[/quote]rather than bypassing it because they can't be bothered with long posts, even if it might be of great value in growth and learning.
Time to put our money where our mouth is when we claim to come here to learn.[/QUOTE]
The mouth seems to be the above.
 
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