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Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

Do you not believe in a triune God? Do you not believe in the divinity of Jesus? Do you believe He is a created being, a creature like us? I am trying to clarify your position so that I know, not as an accusation.
Figuring these things out, is not easy. No wonder there are so many Heresies. The truth is, all this has to be taught and learned. The Holy Spirit is not going to disagree with HIS Orthodoxy, and he will teach it to his Disciples at his Leisure. I'm sure we all still have a lot to learn...
 

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Eleanor didn't say that. I did. She has a bad habit of quoting the end of someone's post at the end of of her responses to them without responding to the final quote. Which then does not show up as a quote of the one who actually said it. Perhaps now she will recognize the confusion it causes and stop doing that.
 
The human Jesus did not know of the plan prior to his birth, at which time he was informed of it, not taken into counsel to form the plan.
Stickin to your story I see, and the bottom quote in that post is me, not you, in case anyone gets confused.
 
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Eleanor didn't say that. I did. She has a bad habit of quoting the end of someone's post at the end of of her responses to them without responding to the final quote. Which then does not show up as a quote of the one who actually said it. Perhaps now she will recognize the confusion it causes and stop doing that.
😅🤣😂.....Ah so it’s ok for you to 😅🤣😂.....LOL....as I said earlier...all in God’s timing...

Only he can reveal truth to my spirit...his truth....much to learn.....
 
Orthodoxy is that his person was both divine and human, the human subject to the divine.
The Father, sending the angel, preserved the humanity of Jesus from falling just as he preserves us.
That was not the divinity of the person Jesus talking in Gethsemane, that was the humanity of the person Jesus pleading.
Gethsemane is all the demonstration we need that Jesus' person was also human. That was not divinity pleading.
If his person were only divine, then you have set the Godhead against itself.
Jesus Person is not human thats nestorian- His Person is only Divine and has a human nature not another person that is human. Thats the 2 person heresy of nestorious.

You are fence walking here saying He is a Divine Person and other times saying He is a human person. Jesus is not a human person, He is a Divine Person with a human nature. Nature is not person.

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

"Christ has a human nature, but He is not a human person. The Person of the Mediator is the unchangeable Son of God. In the incarnation He did not change into a human person; neither did He adopt a human person. He simply assumed, in addition to His divine nature, a human nature, which did not develop into an independent personality, but became personal in the Person of the Son of God. After this assumption of human nature the Person of the Mediator is not only divine but divine-human; He is the Godman, possessing all the essential qualities of both the human and the divine nature. He has both a divine and a human consciousness, as well as a human and a divine will. This is a mystery which we cannot fathom."
 
You are speaking out of both sides. You have gone on record saying Jesus is 2 persons becaue the nature is the person.
And that is more misunderstanding.

One more time! Jesus is one person, both human and divine, because of his two natures.
Study hypostatic union.
I corrected you with the 3 creeds and got questions about your view is the exact same as Nestorious. You cannot have it both ways and say Jesus is both one person and 2 persons.
Agreed, which is why I've never said it.
You simply do not understand the hypostatic union.
 
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😅🤣😂.....Ah so it’s ok for you to 😅🤣😂.....LOL....as I said earlier...all in God’s timing...
Not upset one bit huh? How about we stick to the conversation instead of this sort of thing?
 
Not upset one bit huh? How about we stick to the conversation instead of this sort of thing?
I had to 😅🤣😂....at this.....yes indeed....let’s stick to the topic in hand.....over to you...Lol....nothing wrong with a little banter....just looking for God’s truth...that is all...🙏💗
 
And that is more misunderstanding.

One more time! Jesus is one person, both human and divine, because of his two natures.
Study hypostatic union.
I corrected you with the 3 creeds and got questions about your view is the exact same as Nestorious. You cannot have it both ways and say Jesus is both one person and 2 persons.
Agreed, which is why I've never said it.
You simply do not understand the hypostatic union.
Wrong I developed my own Hypostatic Union many years ago through my personal studies. Its 100 % Biblical and Orthodox.

Hypostatic Union

1.
Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry.

Chist is one person comprised of two natures and that these natures never co-mingle or mix. He most certainly acts as one person for as you and I said that what he is. But, some things according to one nature and others according to the other. Christ is fully aware of His deity just as He is His humanity. However, it has been taught that Christ does indeed have two distinct minds/will, one human and the other the divine will. The human will is at all times subjected to the divine will. At times the divine will remains quiescent so that Christ has a truly human development. "He grew in wisdom and stature ... " (Luke 2:52); "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father (Mark 13:32); "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done" (Luke 22:42). These passages should make it clear that Jesus' human mind/will is distinct from the divine will which He nonetheless possesses in His divine nature. If Christ, who indeed is both God and man in one person, has a conjoined or co-mingled divine-human will, then either His divine will was diminished at times or His human will augmented or both. Christ would have had to be lying when He says He does not know the day or the hour and can read the orthodox position witht the "Monothelite Controversy" which covered this aspect of the person of Christ.

To act is the work of a person but the nature of a person is the cause of the action; for each person acts in accord with the nature that it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures; i.e., human and divine, there are also different activities. So in the one person of Christ there are two natural activities driven by two natural wills, the divine and human. We say that the human will wills whatever the divine will wills it to will. The Monothelite Controversy and the Sixth General council of which the summary definition was that "Two natural wills and two natural activities are shown in our one Lord Christ."

hope this helps !!!
 
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Do you not see that when you say that you are separating His human and divine will? You are even separating Jesus form the eternal Son. The Bible clearly shows us, Jesus clearly shows us, that He always knew who He was, what He came to do, and how it was going to be done. You act like Jesus didn't even know the pre incarnate Son.

In saying this you actually validate the unitarian view of Him. They would say exactly the same thing.
Did Jesus not have a human will?....I’m listening.
 
Figuring these things out, is not easy. No wonder there are so many Heresies. The truth is, all this has to be taught and learned. The Holy Spirit is not going to disagree with HIS Orthodoxy, and he will teach it to his Disciples at his Leisure. I'm sure we all still have a lot to learn...
I ask because on other forums I have seen so many come in wearing camouflage. And you talk and talk and talk, thinking you are basically on the same page theologically, as they use the same words but give them entirely different meanings that does trinitarianism. This goes on long enough that the disguise comes off and then the real fighting begins. Usually they are unitarians or work righteousness folks. So my questions were because I like to know what I am dealing with so I don't waste my time. Not having anything to do with learning or the Holy Spirit teaching, or that we don't all have much yet to learn. Unitarians and works righteousness and really any thing that disagrees with the historical doctrines of Christianity never budge off their position. I don't want to mess with it anymore.
 
I ask because on other forums I have seen so many come in wearing camouflage. And you talk and talk and talk, thinking you are basically on the same page theologically, as they use the same words but give them entirely different meanings that does trinitarianism. This goes on long enough that the disguise comes off and then the real fighting begins. Usually they are unitarians or work righteousness folks. So my questions were because I like to know what I am dealing with so I don't waste my time. Not having anything to do with learning or the Holy Spirit teaching, or that we don't all have much yet to learn. Unitarians and works righteousness and really any thing that disagrees with the historical doctrines of Christianity never budge off their position. I don't want to mess with it anymore.
You are right there are many misconceptions online with the Trnity and 2 natures in Christ. Sometimes it takes many exchanges to flush those out in a dialogue. We are seeing it here with nature and person and them being conflated.

see post 422 and let me know what you think, thanks
 
And we get the true meaning of scripture....when the Holy Spirit reveals it to our heart/ spirit......not by continuously forcing us to see it their way....as in the human way......
Then I have this question. What exactly do you mean by the Holy Spirit revealing it to you? In your experience, how does He do this?
 
Not my will, but thine be done.
was that a yes or a no ?

and does He have a Divine will ? yes or no

and do you know if the will is associated with the nature or the person in orthodoxy ?
 
I ask because on other forums I have seen so many come in wearing camouflage. And you talk and talk and talk, thinking you are basically on the same page theologically, as they use the same words but give them entirely different meanings that does trinitarianism. This goes on long enough that the disguise comes off and then the real fighting begins. Usually they are unitarians or work righteousness folks. So my questions were because I like to know what I am dealing with so I don't waste my time. Not having anything to do with learning or the Holy Spirit teaching, or that we don't all have much yet to learn. Unitarians and works righteousness and really any thing that disagrees with the historical doctrines of Christianity never budge off their position. I don't want to mess with it anymore.
I can smell them a mile away...

This is a good reason to start a Sunday Seminary Class at Church; a 101 Class, and a 201 Class. The 101 Class can teach the Theology that's easy to understand and easy to agree with; and the 201 Class can introduce Theology that needs to be chewed on like Cud...
 
You are right there are many misconceptions online with the Trnity and 2 natures in Christ. Sometimes it takes many exchanges to flush those out in a dialogue. We are seeing it here with nature and person and them being conflated.

see post 422 and let me know what you think, thanks
I will. It is long and deserves a thorough and thoughtful response and am short on time at the moment. Will that work?
 
Then I have this question. What exactly do you mean by the Holy Spirit revealing it to you? In your experience, how does He do this?
You have been birthed in the Spirit, have you not?

Then I’m surprised you aren’t understanding what I’m saying?

How do we understand his “ LIVING “ word?

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come

Has God Through the Holy Spirit ever revealed his will to you, for a certain area of your life?

Maybe this is another topic..that we could discuss together..what say you?
 
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