Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I'm going to give a little demonstration of humanity that I lived through ( as did everyone here in one way or another ) that proves my point. It isn't scriptural. You can agree or not agree.

My wife and I found out ~23 years ago that she was pregnant. She wasn't supposed to be capable because of a medical condition. And yet there was no denying the fact. Emotions ran high.

So the days came and went and my wife grew larger with child. Possible complications for her or the child ( or both ) were a constant worry. The day he should have popped out came and went. We found out that this is a character trait later but that isn't part of the story . It was a difficult pregnancy. Not unexpected but not welcome either.

One evening while my unborn son was being himself...the doctors noticed that his heartrate was jumping and falling. Well...they demonstrated a new feature of the bed my wife was on. It had wheels and they used them. Ready or not, like it or not, she was drugged to the eyeballs and under a knife in 20 minutes flat. I saw things then that no human being should ever see.

Very shortly after that the doctors were handing me a bloody bundle and literally putting my wife back together before my eyes.

Now...My wife and I were overjoyed once the shock wore off about her being pregnant. We knew it was going to be a trial through the entire process. Much more her than I. And yet this women, despite knowing it might kill her, endured everything for the joy that would be our son afterward. She didn't want that trial at all. She knew it might kill her and the child. She hoped that she wouldn't have serious complications. but all of that didn't matter.

It is confounding to me that people insist that God is less complex than we are. You all might step back and take a second look at what the word says sometime and be a little less insistent on your favorite hobby horse where this, and He, is concerned. You all assume that I don't know about all the other Scripture that affirms the one-ness of God. I am aware of it. But I also, where it is obvious to me that no "rules" were broken, tread carefully on defining God as this or that.

I may not have the theological degree on the wall or the books or the languages some of you have. But I do have my Bible and occasionally what it says trumps your high theology or tradition.

Peace out.

*edit: Oh...and both my wife and son are fine. She was walking around the day after with only staples holding her together. He has grown into a fine, stubborn, young buck whom I'm very proud of.

 

[Ritajanice]

The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan.

He had his own will, yet , he chose to do the will of the Father, he even said on numerous occasions, not my will....so there we have it, he had his own will.

The thing is,,,,he had to do the will of the Father,..because the will of God can’t be thwarted, ..he knew this, therefore his will came inline with the Father, as he also said, I seek to do my Father’s will, which again is in scripture....

I did ask this question on another forum about the will of Jesus, another member said the same, he chose to do the will of the Father, she even posted scripture on it, at that time of my understanding, I completely disagreed with her.

I see two wills, I don’t see the will of the Father taking Jesus over, that would be control...so, therefore I believe he had his own will....my thoughts and belief.

Edit to add...what an AMAZING!!...act of obedience to the Father from the Son....I can’t even begin to imagine what it must have been like in the garden Of Gethsemane.....sweating blood....WOW!!....

There is no example above the name of JESUS......he was PERFECT...even in death...his will came inline with the Father’s......what LOVE !!!......

Edit to add..another thing about the will of Jesus....he knew he had his own will....yet, he had nowhere to go with it...if that makes sense....I have my own will , yet again...I know I have nowhere to go with it....I must line my will up with the will of the Father .through the Spirit.......just my thoughts and opinion/ belief.....God is an AMAZING!!....God....His will is so AWESOMELY!!...PERFECT....it can’t be faulted.

 

[Ritajanice]

The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan.

Of course ....Amen!.....he came to do ..” not his will” which he most definitely had,imo/ belief.....he came down to do the Father’s will.......and it was done!....nothing can thwart the will of God!!.....mind blowing!.....Praise His Holy Name.

His ways and thoughts are so much higher than ours.....Perfect!!!

Got answer.

ANSWER


The life of Jesus Christ exemplified obedience. He came to earth to fulfill His heavenly Father’s will no matter how painful the task set before Him. Nonetheless, Jesus spoke honestly with God when faced with His crucifixion: “Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me” (Luke 22:42, NLT). In His human state, Jesus did not want to endure a torturous death. Yet in the same breath, He prayed, “Not my will, but yours be done” (Luke 22:42).

 

[Arial]

Then they are a brick wall.

You aren't making any sense whatsoever. You have completely changed the subject. Not sure there even is one. It seems like all it is, is accusing me of something, but not saying what, for the sake of fighting.

 

[civic]

Or did he clearly express the desire of his own will, and then submit his will to the Father's.
The language of the text is clear.

Isolating one verse and forming a doctrine that is contrary to the rest of Scripture on the topic is not a good hermenuitic .

Perfect Unity, Oneness, Harmony, Will, Works, Words etc........

Hebrews 10:7,9
Then I said, 'Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll: I have come to do Your will, O God.'
Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.

John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.


John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father."

John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me--or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

John 14:24
Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.

 

[civic]

He had his own will, yet , he chose to do the will of the Father, he even said on numerous occasions, not my will....so there we have it, he had his own will.

The thing is,,,,he had to do the will of the Father,..because the will of God can’t be thwarted, ..he knew this, therefore his will came inline with the Father, as he also said, I seek to do my Father’s will, which again is in scripture....

I did ask this question on another forum about the will of Jesus, another member said the same, he chose to do the will of the Father, she even posted scripture on it, at that time of my understanding, I completely disagreed with her.

I see two wills, I don’t see the will of the Father taking Jesus over, that would be control...so, therefore I believe he had his own will....my thoughts and belief.

Edit to add...what an AMAZING!!...act of obedience to the Father from the Son....I can’t even begin to imagine what it must have been like in the garden Of Gethsemane.....sweating blood....WOW!!....

There is no example above the name of JESUS......he was PERFECT...even in death...his will came inline with the Father’s......what LOVE !!!......

Edit to add..another thing about the will of Jesus....he knew he had his own will....yet, he had nowhere to go with it...if that makes sense....I have my own will , yet again...I know I have nowhere to go with it....I must line my will up with the will of the Father .through the Spirit.......just my thoughts and opinion/ belief.....God is an AMAZING!!....God....His will is so AWESOMELY!!...PERFECT....it can’t be faulted.

Jesus has both a Divine and Human will.

Sixth Ecumenical Council, Constantinople III during the Fourth Session of the Council, says

...we confess the holy and inseparable Trinity, that is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, to be of one deity, of one nature and substance or essence, so we will profess also that it has one natural will, power, operation, domination, majesty, potency, and glory... our Lord Jesus Christ himself is both perfect God and perfect man, of two and in two natures: and after his wonderful Incarnation, his deity cannot be thought of without his humanity, nor his humanity without his deity. Consequently, therefore, according to the rule of the holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ, she also confesses and preaches that there are in him two natural wills and two natural operations. For if anybody should mean a personal will, when in the holy Trinity there are said to be three Persons, it would be necessary that there should be asserted three personal wills, and three personal operations (which is absurd and truly profane).

It deals with the question: there is one will in God, the Lord Jesus has two wills, and the three Persons certainly do not each have an individual will. The Acts of the Council clearly state that

...we likewise declare that in him are two natural wills and two natural operations indivisibly, inconvertibly, inseparably, inconfusedly, according to the teaching of the holy Fathers. And these two natural wills are not contrary the one to the other (God forbid!) as the impious heretics assert, but his human will follows and that not as resisting and reluctant, but rather as subject to his divine and omnipotent will.

 

[CCShorts]

Which verse(s) or passages destroy the Arminian understanding of "foreknowledge?" Which is that God looked through the corridors of time and saw who would believe and these He elected.

They are there.

My two cents:

Psalm 139:16 "Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

God has complete knowledge and foreknowledge of an individual's existence and the events that will transpire throughout their life. Let's analyze the verse step by step to understand how it can be seen as supporting the notion that God wrote our entire existence in His book before we were even made.

"Your eyes saw my unformed body": This phrase indicates that God has knowledge of a person even before they are physically formed or created. It implies that God's awareness extends beyond our physical existence and encompasses our pre-formation state.

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book": Who wrote your days in the book? The phrase suggests that there is a predetermined plan or purpose for each individual's life. The concept of a "book" here can be understood metaphorically as a divine record or plan that outlines the events and experiences that will occur throughout a person's life.

"Before one of them came to be": This phrase implies that God's knowledge of our lives and the events within it predates their actual occurrence. It suggests that God's foreknowledge encompasses the entirety of our existence, even before we come into being.

When considered together, these phrases in Psalm 139:16 indicate that God has an intimate knowledge of each individual's life, including events that will happen in the future. It suggests that God's understanding of our existence transcends time and space. From a logical standpoint, this verse can be interpreted as supporting the idea that God had a predetermined plan for our lives, including the events that would unfold, before we were even created.

…

 

[ReverendRV]

<snip> Edit to add..another thing about the will of Jesus....he knew he had his own will....yet, he had nowhere to go with it...if that makes sense....I have my own will , yet again...I know I have nowhere to go with it....I must line my will up with the will of the Father .through the Spirit.......just my thoughts and opinion/ belief.....God is an AMAZING!!....God....His will is so AWESOMELY!!...PERFECT....it can’t be faulted.

I often use the Angels and use the Person of Jesus Christ, as examples for proving my Points. Jesus said, 'Father please take this Cup from me; but not my Will but your Will be done'. Jesus always done the Will of the Father, but this was the moment Jesus came closest to Falling. As a Person, Christ's Liberty of Will was established as a Secondary Causation; without God offering Violence to get his way. Since Jesus lived his Life on the Level of an Unfallen Adam, Christ's Will in Life was a Secondary Causation; not a Primary Causation like when the Logos of God Created the world...

Christ not doing his Secondary Will but doing his Father's Primary Will instead, shows us that in a twinkling of an eye; Jesus almost Fell like Adam...

 

[Arial]

The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan.

Do you not see that when you say that you are separating His human and divine will? You are even separating Jesus form the eternal Son. The Bible clearly shows us, Jesus clearly shows us, that He always knew who He was, what He came to do, and how it was going to be done. You act like Jesus didn't even know the pre incarnate Son.

In saying this you actually validate the unitarian view of Him. They would say exactly the same thing.

 

[Arial]

Of course ....Amen!.....he came to do ..” not his will” which he most definitely had,imo/ belief.....he came down to do the Father’s will.......and it was done!....nothing can thwart the will of God!!.....mind blowing!.....Praise His Holy Name.

I realize that you are very upset with me now because I disagreed with you on this. But if you think through your statement here, that is a response and agreement with, "The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan." you will see you have present used it to present a Jesus utterly separate from His divinity. As though He is not the eternal Son come as one of us for the purpose of redemption, but a created human through which God then works redemption. A unitarian view.

As God incarnate of course He came to do God's will which under no circumstances infers that He had a separate will from God. Rather it affirms that He did not.

 

[civic]

I realize that you are very upset with me now because I disagreed with you on this. But if you think through your statement here, that is a response and agreement with, "The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan." you will see you have present used it to present a Jesus utterly separate from His divinity. As though He is not the eternal Son come as one of us for the purpose of redemption, but a created human through which God then works redemption. A unitarian view.

As God incarnate of course He came to do God's will which under no circumstances infers that He had a separate will from God. Rather it affirms that He did not.

Yes the Godhead ( Trinity ) has One will. Christ has 2 wills both a Divine will ( exactly the same will as the Father and Holy Spirit ) and a human will that was in subjection to the Divine will. The will is associated with the nature, not the Person. God is 3 Persons with One Divine nature and will. Many are not understanding the Hypostatic Union of the Person of Christ. It can lead to many errors and assumptions about Jesus. I have posted Scripture, POV's and the Creeds that affirms the above to be true and which also refuted many heresies concerning Christ in those ecumenical councils from the early church.

 

[civic]

I often use the Angels and use the Person of Jesus Christ, as examples for proving my Points. Jesus said, 'Father please take this Cup from me; but not my Will but your Will be done'. Jesus always done the Will of the Father, but this was the moment Jesus came closest to Falling. As a Person, Christ's Liberty of Will was established as a Secondary Causation; without God offering Violence to get his way. Since Jesus lived his Life on the Level of an Unfallen Adam, Christ's Will in Life was a Secondary Causation; not a Primary Causation like when the Logos of God Created the world...

Christ not doing his Secondary Will but doing his Father's Primary Will instead, shows us that in a twinkling of an eye; Jesus almost Fell like Adam...

The way you are wording it seems contrary to the doctrine of the Impeccability of Christ.

 

[Ritajanice]

I realize that you are very upset with me now because I disagreed with you on this. But if you think through your statement here, that is a response and agreement with, "The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan." you will see you have present used it to present a Jesus utterly separate from His divinity. As though He is not the eternal Son come as one of us for the purpose of redemption, but a created human through which God then works redemption. A unitarian view.

As God incarnate of course He came to do God's will which under no circumstances infers that He had a separate will from God. Rather it affirms that He did not.

May I just say, firstly, whatever makes you think I am upset with you?....far from it...try not to make “ assumptions “ because that’s what this is...

The rest of your post doesn’t make an ounce of sense to me...as in through the Spirit.....maybe it will at a later date maybe it won’t....I can’t understand confusion, and I find your post here full of confusion...as I’m sure you find mine the same.

Rather than carry on in the discussion/ confusion ....it’s best I leave it here, because I don’t want to create more confusion....thank you for voicing your opinion/ belief as did I, on the subject matter...

 

[Eleanor]

Well of course since the humanity of the Son did not exist until the Incarnation.

Like I keep saying ( along with the Creeds and Orthodoxy )His Person is Divine, not human.

Contraire. . .the Creeds and orthodoxy do not say his person was only divine.

 

[ReverendRV]

The way you are wording it seems contrary to the doctrine of the Impeccability of Christ.

I'm 50/50 on this; I'm a notorius middle-man. But I land on Impeccability...

Ask yourself; did Jesus mention he had a Contrary Will than his Father's Will, by his Divine Nature or by his Human Nature? Either way, there's a problem. If Jesus spoke in his Human Nature as the Second Adam, he almost Fell. If he spoke as we believe as a Divine Person, the Trinity almost had a problem due to the Godhead having two divergent Wills...

 

[civic]

Contraire. . .the Creeds and orthodoxy do not say his person was only divine.

Yes they do they all confirm He is only a Divine Person having a human nature. Nestorius the heretic who was condemned taught that Jesus was both a human person and a Divine Person.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm 50/50 on this; I'm a notorius middle-man. But I land on Impeccability...

Ask yourself; did Jesus mention he had a Contrary Will than his Father's Will by his Divine Nature or by his Human Nature? Either way, there's a problem. If Jesus spoke in his Human Nature as the Second Adam, he almost Fell. If he spoke as we believe as a Divine Person, the Trinity almost had a problem due to the Godhead having two divergent Wills...

Orthodoxy is that his person was both divine and human, the human subject to the divine.
The Father, sending the angel, preserved the humanity of Jesus from falling just as he preserves us.
That was not the divinity of the person Jesus talking in Gethsemane, that was the humanity of the person Jesus pleading.
Gethsemane is all the demonstration we need that Jesus' person was also human. That was not divinity pleading.
If his person were only divine, then you have set the Godhead against itself.

 

[ReverendRV]

The Father, sending the angel, preserved the humanity of Jesus from falling just as he preserves us.

Yes, Jesus was Impeccable because God is Providential...

 

[civic]

I'm 50/50 on this; I'm a notorius middle-man. But I land on Impeccability...

Ask yourself; did Jesus mention he had a Contrary Will than his Father's Will, by his Divine Nature or by his Human Nature? Either way, there's a problem. If Jesus spoke in his Human Nature as the Second Adam, he almost Fell. If he spoke as we believe as a Divine Person, the Trinity almost had a problem due to the Godhead having two divergent Wills...

Asking a question is not contrary when praying. Jesus prayed for His disciples in John 17 so was that prayer contrary to the Fathers will ?

When Jesus taught the disciples to pray: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Is that contrary to the Fathers will when we pray ?

Jesus did the exact same thing when He prayed not My will be done but your will be done.

 

[ReverendRV]

Asking a question is not contrary when praying. Jesus prayed for His disciples in John 17 so was that prayer contrary to the Fathers will ?

Not at all...

But Jesus said his Will was not to drink from the Cup. It's a diversion to move on to a different Prayer to make your point...