Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

[Arial]

How do you go over, around, through or dismantle the text of those Scriptures?

I don't. Why do you say I do?

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: kerfluffle

Where? I picked it up from a friend long long ago.

Judge Judy used the work kerfluffle every 5th show (my guess).

 

[Eleanor]

I don't. Why do you say I do?

Then they are a brick wall.

 

[civic]

We can all except the extant Scriptural witness. However, we can't deny that "Perspective" is key in this discussion. You can read those verses and give your perception. I can do the same.

However, what we have here is an issue of how to apply what we read. There is no indication of the Son having a contrary will to the Father. However, you insist that is true.

Let me provide a "brick wall" that says otherwise.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Notice the word "ALWAYS".

And He always hears , says and does what He hears, sees the Father saying and doing. Inseparable wills. Complete oneness, harmony and unity 24/7.

 

[Eleanor]

We can all except the extant Scriptural witness. However, we can't deny that "Perspective" is key in this discussion. You can read those verses and give your perception. I can do the same.
However, what we have here is an issue of how to apply what we read. There is no indication of the Son having a contrary will to the Father. However, you insist that is true.
Let me provide a "brick wall" that says otherwise.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Notice the word "ALWAYS".

It doesn't have to be contrary to be distinct.
And we're talking about the humanity of Jesus, who likewise was divinity, 100% both, the humanity subject to the divinity.

 

[civic]

John 5
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.


John 10:38
But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father."

John 12:49
I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

John 14:11
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me--or at least believe on account of the works themselves.

John 14:24
Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.

 

[makesends]

The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan.

Wow! Never really thought of that, but you're right!

 

[civic]

The human Jesus was not consulted regarding the plan.

Well of course since the humanity of the Son did not exist until the Incarnation.

Like I keep saying ( along with the Creeds and Orthodoxy )His Person is Divine, not human.

 

[makesends]

Well of course since the humanity of the Son did not exist until the Incarnation.

Like I keep saying ( along with the Creeds and Orthodoxy )His Person is Divine, not human.

Two natures, no?

 

[civic]

Two natures, no?

Not prior to the Incarnation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It doesn't have to be contrary to be distinct.
And we're talking about the humanity of Jesus, who likewise was divinity, 100% both, the humanity subject to the divinity.

You're claiming a contrary distinction from the humanity of Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well of course since the humanity of the Son did not exist until the Incarnation.

Like I keep saying ( along with the Creeds and Orthodoxy )His Person is Divine, not human.

Exactly. Weakness swallowed up in victory.

 

[makesends]

Not prior to the Incarnation.

Of course... I'm not seeing why you said that. What is your point?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wow! Never really thought of that, but you're right!

You are creating a separation between the humanity and Divinity of the singular Person of Jesus Christ. You are pretending one doesn't know or operate perfectly in Person.

 

[makesends]

You are creating a separation between the humanity and Divinity of the singular Person of Jesus Christ. You are pretending one doesn't know or operate perfectly in Person.

Huh? One person, two natures. What's the problem?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Huh? One person, two natures. What's the problem?

That Person spoke as One. There were no scenarios where the flesh controlled the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[makesends]

That Person spoke as One. There were no scenarios where the flesh controlled the Person of Jesus Christ.

Who said, or even implied that there were scenarios where the flesh controlled the person of Jesus Christ? And of course he spoke as one —he WAS one. I don't see anyone saying differently.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who said, or even implied that there were scenarios where the flesh controlled the person of Jesus Christ? And of course he spoke as one —he WAS one. I don't see anyone saying differently.

I quoted the wrong person. My apologies. I thought you were Eleanor. Sorry.

 

[makesends]

I quoted the wrong person. My apologies. I thought you were Eleanor. Sorry.

Eleanor is kinda my tag-team partner. I probably butted in and answered for her at some point.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Re: kerfluffle

Judge Judy used the work kerfluffle every 5th show (my guess).
View attachment 288

Well then...at least I'm not completely plagiarizing her. I wonder where she got it from?