No Deal with the Devil: Christ's Ransom and the Justice of God

[JesusFan]

We don't forgive unto eternal life.
If God gave eternal forgiveness to a person without his justice against sin being satisfied, he would no longer be simple (not made up of parts). His mercy would surpass/ override/be greater than his justice.

It was not for his sins that Jesus bore the wrath of God, but for the sins of those God was giving to him. God was not extracting his "pound of flesh" on Jesus. That is emotional language meant to sway an argument in one direction. The penalty was against sin, on the flesh (like our flesh) of Jesus. His body, a body and nature like ours but without sin or a sin nature, substituted for us. He was the ransom for the sake of justice.

Those who dislike Psa usually fall into its being "pagan concept, and cosmic child abuse"

 

[JesusFan]

I was specifically asked for my position, so I gave it. I almost didn’t respond to the request because experience has shown that what should be at best a TERTIARY ISSUE (not even rising to the level of a secondary issue) is far too often treated as a PRIMARY (salvific) issue. Our opinions about WHY Jesus did what Jesus did (absent scriptural proof) is hardly a hill we should be willing to die on … or burn heretics on.

Now, if you disagree with me about the TRANSFER OF WRATH … so what? You do not answer to me and I do not answer to you. Each will answer to their own master, who is able to make them stand!

If you feel the uncontrollable need to change my mind, then save the contrary opinions and present the Biblical verses and exegesis to support your case. THAT is what will change my mind. God’s Word, rightly divided.

Since God the Father has stored up divine wrath against wicked and sinners, where did our deserved wrath go to then in order to Him to justify us and yet still remain Holy?

 

[JesusFan]

Does God forbid the punishment of the innocent for the guilty?
Have I correctly, or incorrectly paraphrased scripture?
(Let us establish whether I have lied or spoken the truth.)

If I have LIED, then I am a LIAR and what difference is the opinion of a LIAR to your question?
If I have told the TRUTH, then the sacrifices cannot “picture” the innocent being punished for the guilty (a violation of God’s Law). I posit that the sacrifices foreshadow the death of Christ, where a “spotless Lamb of God” (a sinless God-Man) gave himself (as High Priest and offering) to redeem for Himself a Bride and for God the Father a people as THEY (the Godhead) had planned and declared THEY would.

Jesus is that which restores. Wrath belongs to those that persist in rejecting so great a salvation, the ENEMIES of God, not the Children of God. The Vessels of Wrath, not the Vessels of Honor.

We were ALL those enemies of God, all deserved that wrath though

 

[JesusFan]

Chip on shoulder? I simply stated my position just as you stated your position. I have no interest in changing your mind. I find minds are very difficult to change once someone has taken a public stand. They would rather argue incessantly in order to be right and never wrong, refusing at all costs a willingness to listen and even less interest in learning. Despite the rule to do both as good faith participants. I simply showed you that from my view, which is the result of rightly dividing the word, God was not extracting his "pound of flesh" on the innocent instead of on the guilty as you portray it. And if he wasn't doing that, then it is not a sound argument for denying PSA. I actually showed you why that is not what he was doing. Fifteen words: God's attribute of just cannot take a back seat to his attribute of being merciful. They have to work together, in harmony, because God is not made up of parts. He is one essence.

For God to remain Holy and true to his very nature, someone must die for sin, and that death entails account for wrath and condemnation

 

[JesusFan]

Uh, no. The Catholic (or any other) notion of 'perpetual virginity of Mary is not logical, but presumptuous.

I will admit to having read through your post too quickly. You posted two different cups, one that represents his blood poured out, which he drank in fellowship with his disciples at 'the last supper'. You apparently think that cup which he had already drunk is the one he prayed, were it possible, that he be delivered from. What he drank at the supper is not that which he endured at the cross. You are making the two equivalent that are not.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that it is not false equivalence. How does that cup of the new covenant that was poured out for us translate into NOT the cup of God's wrath? I would argue there is a lot more to infer from the "winepress of God's wrath" than from the wedding at CANA.

Ezekiel 18 is not a stand-alone passage. Going with that logic one might decide there is no such thing as imputation of Adam's sin to us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
In a way I cannot understand fully, Jesus became our sin offering and sin bearer, so He had to be treated by His Father as if He was sin incarnate, and yet still always remained holy sinless and spotless lamb of God

 

[JesusFan]

No, not a single verse but the entire chapter. The chapter is a discussion from God on GOD's POV and contrasting it with Man's POV on what constitutes "Justice". God and Man were in disagreement on what is "fair" ... "The ways of the Lord are not fair" is the refrain from the people and "It is your ways that are not fair, not My Ways" is the response from God.

So what does God have to say about those that obey and those that rebel? [God defining HIS standard of Justice.]

• If a man obeys, he will live and not die.
• If a man rebels, he will die.
• The man who obeys will live BECAUSE of HIS obedience and the man that rebels will die BECAUSE of HIS rebellion.
• The obedience or rebellion of your family plays no part in your fate [contrary to the laws and logic of men].

What does GOD SAY in Ezekiel 18 about the obedient Man that turns away to REBELLION and the rebellious Man that turns towards OBEDIENCE?

• The good of the man that turns to REBELLION will be FORGOTTEN.
• The evil of the man that turns to OBEDIENCE will be FORGOTTEN.

Ezekiel 18:20 is good, but Ezekiel 18:32 is better ... [ESV] "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." Is not the essence of Transferring our wrath to Jesus for punishment by the Father to satisfy Justice that God DOES take pleasure in the death of someone: God DEMANDS it!

I posit a God with the power to "forgive" sins ... actually forgive and not merely transfer punishment.
I will hapilly change my mind, but it will require explicit teaching from scripture and there were Christians a long time before men settled on PSA as THE ANSWER. (so I suspect there is only "implicit" - read between the lines - and no "explicit" scripture on PSA).

That passage trefers to physical death penalty, NOTHING to do with the wrath and judgement of God towards that person