Prevenient grace?

[Carbon]

Prevenient grace (or enabling grace).

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

So, prevenient grace is, everyone is given enough grace (externally) to make it possible to respond to Christ by our own free will. Then, those who respond, are the elect.

Already there is an issue here. If prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails! I mean what good is it after all, if it's offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?
And if you say it's something God does in man's heart, then I have to ask, why then is it not always effective?
Which begs the question, why do some choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose to not cooperate?

Doesn't everyone get the same amount of prevenient grace? So, why does one person say yes and another says no?

Besides the doctrine of prevenient grace not being in scripture, this is another big issue.

 

[ReverendRV]

An old Poster elsewhere used to say that Arminian Prevenient Grace, changed people from a position of Enmity to that of Neutrality; from a state of Total Depravity to a state of Nominal Depravity. This Act of Arminian Prevenient Grace, changed people into Pelagians; those who can of themselves freely choose or deny Christ. That Poster's point was that Arminianism is truly Pelagianism with an Asterisk; Pelagianism in Arminian clothing. He said that Prevenient Grace goes to everyone, and thwarts the power of Total Depravity in All Human Beings. Because this happens, people are only Totally Depraved for a moment in their lives; and probably are Naturally in the condition of being Pelagian for the better part of their lives...

I will never forget the Poster's Argument. By Grace, Arminians evolve into Pelagians...

On a different note, I also realize the things Arminian Prevenient Grace and Calvinism's Irresistible Grace have in common; they both are Prevenient, and both are Irresistible. Both are Prevenient because both Graces are the first factors of Salvation; going before any other required aspect of Salvation, such as Faith, Repentance, Confession, etc. Both are Irresistible because both thwart Total Depravity against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God; Grace Efficaciously Trespasses the Front Lines of our Forces....

The main difference between Arminian Prevenient Grace and Calvinism's Irresistible Grace, is the condition they leave us in after they encroach; one leaves us Neutral Pelagians, the other leaves us Spiritually Alive people who choose Jesus Christ due to now being Alive...

 

[atpollard]

Technically, I think that would be Semi-Pelagian.

Pelagians don't need grace, people have no "original sin" and can save themselves by just obeying the law of their own ... wait for it ... FREE WILL. (which to their insane credit, true Pelagians actually believe IS FREE).

 

[ReverendRV]

Technically, I think that would be Semi-Pelagian.

Pelagians don't need grace, people have no "original sin" and can save themselves by just obeying the law of their own ... wait for it ... FREE WILL. (which to their insane credit, true Pelagians actually believe IS FREE).

Technically, Arminianism is Semi Pelagian. But the person's argument is that after Arminian Prevenient Grace changes people; they are Pelagians...

 

[atpollard]

Credit where Credit is due, Prevenient Grace makes sense of Mark 4:

3 “Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seed. ​

• 4 As he scattered it across his field, some of the seed fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate it.
• 5 Other seed fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seed sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plant soon wilted under the hot sun, and since it didn’t have deep roots, it died.
• 7 Other seed fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants so they produced no grain.
• 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they sprouted, grew, and produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

9 Then he said, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”​

Care to explain it with IRRESISTIBLE GRACE?

 

[atpollard]

Technically, Arminianism is Semi Pelagian. But the person's argument is that after Arminian Prevenient Grace changes people; they are Pelagians...

I was under the impression that Pelagius argument denies the NEED for a savior. I am 100% certain that is a misrepresentation of any Arminian teaching that I have ever encountered (Wesleyan Holiness, Church of God, Pentecostal, General Baptist, Evangelical Free).

 

[ReverendRV]

Credit where Credit is due, Prevenient Grace makes sense of Mark 4:

3 “Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seed. ​

• 4 As he scattered it across his field, some of the seed fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate it.
• 5 Other seed fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seed sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plant soon wilted under the hot sun, and since it didn’t have deep roots, it died.
• 7 Other seed fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants so they produced no grain.
• 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they sprouted, grew, and produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

9 Then he said, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”​

Care to explain it with IRRESISTIBLE GRACE?

The Irresistible Grace explanation takes place regarding those who have ears to hear. Elsewhere the Bible says people don't believe because they have Uncircumsised ears. The Spiritual Ears need to first be Circumcised by the Holy Spirit. This is the same as Circumcision of the Heart; IE the New Birth, the New Heart, Regeneration...

 

[ReverendRV]

I was under the impression that Pelagius argument denies the NEED for a savior. I am 100% certain that is a misrepresentation of any Arminian teaching that I have ever encountered (Wesleyan Holiness, Church of God, Pentecostal, General Baptist, Evangelical Free).

I can't speak on that, I've never heard that being a part of Pelagianism...

 

[atpollard]

Pelagianism asserts: [source]

• We’re all born like Adam and Eve—free of sin. We’re morally neutral and capable of righteous living and thus obliged to live without sin.
• Adam’s sin only impacted the world because he set a bad example. It denies his sin led to mankind being born in bondage to sin.
• We choose to sin not because we have a sin nature that’s bent toward sin, but because we’re influenced by those around us.
• We possess the power in ourselves to live free of sin.
• We only become sinners when we choose to sin.
• Ultimately, mankind will choose to sin, but theoretically, we have it in ourselves to live sinlessly—like Christ.
• We can achieve salvation and God’s acceptance simply by ceasing to sin, which means Christ’s death on the cross was unnecessary.
• Christ didn’t come to atone for our sin but to be an example for us of righteous living.
• God’s grace helps us make good choices, but grace isn’t necessary for salvation.
• God gives us the grace to grow in holiness, not by inward empowerment, but by external laws and examples. We achieve salvation by following the law and Christ’s example of obedience to God.
• Salvation proceeds from ourselves rather than from God alone. It depends on something within us.

 

[Agra Man]

Prevenient grace (or enabling grace).

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

So, prevenient grace is, everyone is given enough grace (externally) to make it possible to respond to Christ by our own free will. Then, those who respond, are the elect.

Already there is an issue here. If prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails! I mean what good is it after all, if it's offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?
And if you say it's something God does in man's heart, then I have to ask, why then is it not always effective?
Which begs the question, why do some choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose to not cooperate?

Doesn't everyone get the same amount of prevenient grace? So, why does one person say yes and another says no?

Besides the doctrine of prevenient grace not being in scripture, this is another big issue.

Well the thing is free will is a thing. free will by definition means you choose your course of action and the consaquences are on you because you decided good or bad we all have to own up to our own decisions.

If the elect only were to be saved then free will doesn't matter or exist yet we clearly can choose whether to sin or not, we can choose to follow his leading or not.

But at the judgement throne no one will be without excuse it even says so in scripture if the elect only were chesn then those not chosen would have an excuse to give.
Not to mention that the gospel was preached to everyone and all with the call to repent and come to Christ even
Jesus went into towns where surely he knew he would not be recieved by many but he did anyways and he spoke to everyone when he spoke not some in the crowd or certains ones all of them many of which would recoice in his death.

His elect is also not those he prechose it is refering the the Jews, remember the gospel of salvation was originally for them but they rejected it and Jesus so it was given to the gentiles eho in the eyes of the jews were to be avoided and considered unclean.

 

[Carbon]

Well the thing is free will is a thing. free will by definition means you choose your course of action and the consaquences are on you because you decided good or bad we all have to own up to our own decisions.

If the elect only were to be saved then free will doesn't matter or exist yet we clearly can choose whether to sin or not, we can choose to follow his leading or not.

But at the judgement throne no one will be without excuse it even says so in scripture if the elect only were chesn then those not chosen would have an excuse to give.
Not to mention that the gospel was preached to everyone and all with the call to repent and come to Christ even
Jesus went into towns where surely he knew he would not be recieved by many but he did anyways and he spoke to everyone when he spoke not some in the crowd or certains ones all of them many of which would recoice in his death.

His elect is also not those he prechose it is refering the the Jews, remember the gospel of salvation was originally for them but they rejected it and Jesus so it was given to the gentiles eho in the eyes of the jews were to be avoided and considered unclean.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well the thing is free will is a thing. free will by definition means you choose your course of action and the consaquences are on you because you decided good or bad we all have to own up to our own decisions.

If the elect only were to be saved then free will doesn't matter or exist yet we clearly can choose whether to sin or not, we can choose to follow his leading or not.

But at the judgement throne no one will be without excuse it even says so in scripture if the elect only were chesn then those not chosen would have an excuse to give.
Not to mention that the gospel was preached to everyone and all with the call to repent and come to Christ even
Jesus went into towns where surely he knew he would not be recieved by many but he did anyways and he spoke to everyone when he spoke not some in the crowd or certains ones all of them many of which would recoice in his death.

His elect is also not those he prechose it is refering the the Jews, remember the gospel of salvation was originally for them but they rejected it and Jesus so it was given to the gentiles eho in the eyes of the jews were to be avoided and considered unclean.

Can you explain what Free Will has in common with Arminian Prevenient Grace?

 

[Agra Man]

Can you explain what Free Will has in common with Arminian Prevenient Grace?

Well this is the first I have heard of that term but it seems to be the other side of the argument of election and free will has everything to do with it. If you notice he tends to call people always calling but hardly ever does he enforce his will on us he usually will tell us what to do where to go who to go to but it is never set in stone sometimes people refuse even those who would call themselves elect.

Salvation is called a gift a gift is something you have a choice to take or not God gave us free will and it wasn't to serve sin or ourselves it was to choose today who we serve.

If one never had a choice in the matter and nothing they did or said would affect if they were heaven bound or not why on earth would anyone listen and come to him when in their minds what does it matter if their not the elct then why should they bother? I have seen this mindset even in Christians it leaves the doors open for favoritism from God that he created some for his love which is perfect and endless but he created those destined for hell though they never had a say in their creation or their destination

If God desires that all come to salvation and many are called but few are chosen well Jesus himself was the one who said that and I take what he says at his word no questions asked no interpretation or my own thoughts on what he means when he speaks I respect it this is when we listen to him

I am fine with interpretations of doctrines and scriptures, well i'm not but I know it is how things are for now but when it comes to Jesus himself this is one time I think we don't add or take away what we think he says

 

[Carbon]

Well the thing is free will is a thing.

Yes, I agree.

free will by definition means you choose your course of action and the consaquences are on you because you decided good or bad we all have to own up to our own decisions.

I have no issue with that.

If the elect only were to be saved then free will doesn't matter or exist yet we clearly can choose whether to sin or not, we can choose to follow his leading or not.

Well, the elect has a will also. I'm not sure I understand.

But at the judgement throne no one will be without excuse it even says so in scripture if the elect only were chesn then those not chosen would have an excuse to give.

I'm not following. Sorry.

Not to mention that the gospel was preached to everyone and all with the call to repent and come to Christ even

Indeed.

Jesus went into towns where surely he knew he would not be recieved by many but he did anyways and he spoke to everyone when he spoke not some in the crowd or certains ones all of them many of which would recoice in his death.

Reminds me of the parable of the soils.

His elect is also not those he prechose it is refering the the Jews,

That's debatable.

remember the gospel of salvation was originally for them but they rejected it and Jesus so it was given to the gentiles eho in the eyes of the jews were to be avoided and considered unclean.

That surely is taught in the bible.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well this is the first I have heard of that term but it seems to be the other side of the argument of election and free will has everything to do with it. If you notice he tends to call people always calling but hardly ever does he enforce his will on us he usually will tell us what to do where to go who to go to but it is never set in stone sometimes people refuse even those who would call themselves elect.

Salvation is called a gift a gift is something you have a choice to take or not God gave us free will and it wasn't to serve sin or ourselves it was to choose today who we serve.

If one never had a choice in the matter and nothing they did or said would affect if they were heaven bound or not why on earth would anyone listen and come to him when in their minds what does it matter if their not the elct then why should they bother? I have seen this mindset even in Christians it leaves the doors open for favoritism from God that he created some for his love which is perfect and endless but he created those destined for hell though they never had a say in their creation or their destination

If God desires that all come to salvation and many are called but few are chosen well Jesus himself was the one who said that and I take what he says at his word no questions asked no interpretation or my own thoughts on what he means when he speaks I respect it this is when we listen to him

I am fine with interpretations of doctrines and scriptures, well i'm not but I know it is how things are for now but when it comes to Jesus himself this is one time I think we don't add or take away what we think he says

Thanks...

By definition, Isn't Grace the Unmerited Favor of God?

Forgive me, I am just trying to stay on the topic of the OP...

 

[Agra Man]

Thanks...

By definition, Isn't Grace the Unmerited Favor of God?

Of course I don't say any of this as a matter of fact this is just how I look at it. Sometimes when you see patterns in the bible if you look at his ways opf doing things throughout the bible that can help understand other things in scripture.

He always has a certain way of doing things so I might be wrong but but I like being wrong it is just a teaching moment at that point.

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course I don't say any of this as a matter of fact this is just how I look at it. Sometimes when you see patterns in the bible if you look at his ways opf doing things throughout the bible that can help understand other things in scripture.

He always has a certain way of doing things so I might be wrong but but I like being wrong it is just a teaching moment at that point.

No problem...

The points you raise have a lot to do with Calvinism, but less to do with Arminian Prevenient Grace. It's the Unmerited Favor of God. Free Will decisions cannot Merit Grace; it's free-er than Free Will...

 

[Agra Man]

No problem...

The points you raise have a lot to do with Calvinism, but less to do with Arminian Prevenient Grace. It's the Unmerited Favor of God. Free Will decisions cannot Merit Grace; it's free-er than Free Will...

Ah I see perhaps my mind thought they both had the same to do with each other but maybe I am not understanding this yet

 

[Carbon]

Ah I see perhaps my mind thought they both had the same to do with each other but maybe I am not understanding this yet

Thats okay. Take your time brother.

 

[ReverendRV]

Ah I see perhaps my mind thought they both had the same to do with each other but maybe I am not understanding this yet

Think of it as Grace always preceding the Will. Grace is like the Starting Gates at a Horse Race; the Gates have to open before the Horses can run. After Grace? The horses are free to run. Before Grace? The horses are not free to run; no matter how much they are chomping at the Bit...

This means it's true we're Totally Unable to Will to run the race of Salvation as to win the Prize; until Grace fires it's Starting Pistol. Before Grace, we're at Enmity with God; and refuse to run the race...