Penal Substitution

[Carbon]

I'm going to start this thread with J. I. Packer's words.

Penal Substitution in focus,
The built-in function of the human mind that we call conscience tells everyone, uncomfortably, that when we have misbehaved we ought to suffer for it, and to that extent, conscience is truly the voice of God.

Both testaments, then, confirm that judicial retribution from God awaits all whose sins are not covered by a substitutionary sacrifice: in the Old Testament, the sacrifice of an animal; in the New Testament, the sacrifice of Christ. He, the holy Son of God in sinless human flesh, has endured what Calvin called "the pains of a condemned and lost person" so that we, trusting him as our Savior and Lord, might receive pardon for the past and a new life in him and with him for the present and the future. Tellingly Paul, having announced "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation [i.e., wrath quencher] by his blood, to be received by faith," goes on to say: "it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom, 3:24-26 ESV). Just justification - justified justification - through the doing of justice in penal substitution is integral to the message of the gospel.


I know this could be a deep subject and can cause division. So, it is very important to debate the doctrinal positions on this subject. It is very important to not attack the person. If we find it difficult to debate the doctrine and we start to attack the person, it's best if we bow out of the discussion. After having said that, what are everyone's thoughts on Packer's words?

 

[Eleanor]

In terms of the OT patterns of atoning sacrifices prefiguring Christ's sacrifice, Packer is, of course, 100% Biblical.

The OT sacrifices were penalties for sin (Lev 5:6-7, 15, 6:6, 26:41, 43).
Jesus is the atoning sacrifice (Ro 3:25) which paid the penalty for our sin.

The second person of the Trinity, the divine Son of God, left his throne and glory in heaven to become man (Jn 1:1, 14)
to pay the penalty for our sin, that the Father might remit our sin debt, we be reconciled, adopted as Christ's brethren and
even sharing in his own personal inheritance.

 

[Carbon]

Isaiah 53.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Marilyn C]

I'm going to start this thread with J. I. Packer's words.

Penal Substitution in focus,
The built-in function of the human mind that we call conscience tells everyone, uncomfortably, that when we have misbehaved we ought to suffer for it, and to that extent, conscience is truly the voice of God.

Both testaments, then, confirm that judicial retribution from God awaits all whose sins are not covered by a substitutionary sacrifice: in the Old Testament, the sacrifice of an animal; in the New Testament, the sacrifice of Christ. He, the holy Son of God in sinless human flesh, has endured what Calvin called "the pains of a condemned and lost person" so that we, trusting him as our Savior and Lord, might receive pardon for the past and a new life in him and with him for the present and the future. Tellingly Paul, having announced "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation [i.e., wrath quencher] by his blood, to be received by faith," goes on to say: "it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom, 3:24-26 ESV). Just justification - justified justification - through the doing of justice in penal substitution is integral to the message of the gospel.


I know this could be a deep subject and can cause division. So, it is very important to debate the doctrinal positions on this subject. It is very important to not attack the person. If we find it difficult to debate the doctrine and we start to attack the person, it's best if we bow out of the discussion. After having said that, what are everyone's thoughts on Packer's words?

I would say that there needed an explanation for that phrase - `in the OT, the sacrifice of an animal. `

`For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.` (Heb. 10: 4)

It is only because God made that way in the OT BECAUSE of what Christ would do.

 

[Carbon]

One teaching about the nature of atonement is imputation. I found that so many Christians have an issue with this essential doctrine. The imputation of our sins to the Lord Jesus and the imputation of the Lord's righteousness to us is essential. God lays on Jesus our trespasses he is wounded for our sins and iniquities. He takes what is ours and it is counted to him. And when he goes to the cross as one who knows no sin, he is going to be made sin, he is going to bear our sins on his own body.

 

[Carbon]

I would say that there needed an explanation for that phrase - `in the OT, the sacrifice of an animal. `

`For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.` (Heb. 10: 4)

It is only because God made that way in the OT BECAUSE of what Christ would do.

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. Lev 4:20.

 

[Marilyn C]

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. Lev 4:20.

Taking in ALL of scripture we know that they were forgiven BECAUSE of Jesus` sacrifice to come.

 

[Carbon]

Taking in ALL of scripture we know that they were forgiven BECAUSE of Jesus` sacrifice to come.

Is that what that teaches in Lev 4:20?

I believe the teaching (types and shadows) is these sacrifices temporarily covered sins.

 

[Marilyn C]

Is that what that teaches in Lev 4:20?

I believe the teaching (types and shadows) is these sacrifices temporarily covered sins.

`...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ` (Rev. 13: 8b)

It is always BECAUSE of Christ`s sacrifice that God could forgive prior to Christ`s death. God in His foreknowledge knew that He would have to undergird man`s fall to bring about restoration.

 

[Eleanor]

`...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ` (Rev. 13: 8b)

It is always BECAUSE of Christ`s sacrifice that God could forgive prior to Christ`s death. God in His foreknowledge knew that He would have to undergird man`s fall to bring about restoration.

Ro 3:25 presents the sacrifices as not actually remitting (forgiving) sin, while Ro 4:7 presents sin as being covered until the cross, when it was actually remitted, debt cancelled, forgiven.

 

[Carbon]

Psalm 22 is a psalm that some use to try and destroy the Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[Arial]

I'm going to start this thread with J. I. Packer's words.

Penal Substitution in focus,
The built-in function of the human mind that we call conscience tells everyone, uncomfortably, that when we have misbehaved we ought to suffer for it, and to that extent, conscience is truly the voice of God.

Both testaments, then, confirm that judicial retribution from God awaits all whose sins are not covered by a substitutionary sacrifice: in the Old Testament, the sacrifice of an animal; in the New Testament, the sacrifice of Christ. He, the holy Son of God in sinless human flesh, has endured what Calvin called "the pains of a condemned and lost person" so that we, trusting him as our Savior and Lord, might receive pardon for the past and a new life in him and with him for the present and the future. Tellingly Paul, having announced "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation [i.e., wrath quencher] by his blood, to be received by faith," goes on to say: "it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom, 3:24-26 ESV). Just justification - justified justification - through the doing of justice in penal substitution is integral to the message of the gospel.


I know this could be a deep subject and can cause division. So, it is very important to debate the doctrinal positions on this subject. It is very important to not attack the person. If we find it difficult to debate the doctrine and we start to attack the person, it's best if we bow out of the discussion. After having said that, what are everyone's thoughts on Packer's words?

I agree with Packer. I have found those who object to penal substitution are doing so from a purely emotional basis and they look at the doctrine as though it teaches God was venting His anger at Jesus like a tyrant. That He was angry with Jesus, that God actually did the killing by His own hand. In some way the theory is that by removing the penal substitution doctrine, God is somehow made to be a better God. Love would not do such a thing.

However they have just produced a conundrum from which they cannot escape for they still have Jesus dying on the cross, by the will of God, and it being said that He was substituting Himself for us. They pretty much, and probably do in many cases, also have to deny justification by faith alone and imputed righteousness. By taking out the imputed sin to Christ and our sins meeting God's justice in Christ, they have a cross that didn't really do anything, and therefore no imputed righteousness and no justification.

 

[Carbon]

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psalm 22:1.

I have actually seen it said and taught that Jesus was just quoting scripture when he said on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me". I like what R. C. Sproul said concerning that, he said, he don't think Jesus was in the scripture-quoting mood. Of course, we know he did quote scripture, but not for the reason the PSA deniers teach.

 

[Carbon]

And then some go as far as claiming Christ suffering and going to the cross enduring the Father's wrath is divine child abuse.
It's actually on the cross where heavens love and justice meet.

But they say the Father would not have wrath on the Son because it would fracture the Trinity.
I believe these people are the whitewashed tombs, and a brood of vipers today. They say there is only love at the cross between the Father and the Son. No wrath.
But, who says the love stopped?
Consider what Jesus said.
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John10:17
He also shows he had total confidence in his resurrection. There was no fracture, no doubt, no love lost.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; Isaiah 53:10.

According to scripture, we are saved from God, by God. It is Jesus who came and laid down his life for his elect. Those the Father has given him.
As we can see in Psalm 2, the Father's great respect and affection for his Son. In the covenant of grace, the Father chose the elect, and Jesus came to suffer the Father's wrath in our place, and He will give Jesus what He desires.

6“As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. Psalm 2:6-8

What is it Jesus wants? Who did he endure wrath for? I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11.
It's really quite simple. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53.

Notice imputation?

 

[Eleanor]

And then some go as far as claiming Christ suffering and going to the cross enduring the Father's wrath is divine child abuse.
It's actually on the cross where heavens love and justice meet.

But they say the Father would not have wrath on the Son because it would fracture the Trinity.
I believe these people are the whitewashed tombs, and a brood of vipers today. They say there is only love at the cross between the Father and the Son. No wrath.
But, who says the love stopped?
Consider what Jesus said.
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John10:17
He also shows he had total confidence in his resurrection. There was no fracture, no doubt, no love lost.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; Isaiah 53:10.

According to scripture, we are saved from God, by God. It is Jesus who came and laid down his life for his elect. Those the Father has given him.
As we can see in Psalm 2, the Father's great respect and affection for his Son. In the covenant of grace, the Father chose the elect, and Jesus came to suffer the Father's wrath in our place, and He will give Jesus what He desires.

6“As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. Psalm 2:6-8

What is it Jesus wants? Who did he endure wrath for? I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11.
It's really quite simple. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53.

Notice imputation?

Yeah, just not specifically stated.
Gotta' think on the implications of taking the liberty to call it that when the NT presents only two imputations specifically.

 

[Sereni-tea]

And then some go as far as claiming Christ suffering and going to the cross enduring the Father's wrath is divine child abuse.
It's actually on the cross where heavens love and justice meet.

I know both Christians and non-Christians who have struggled with the theme of substitution and it is my opinion that it is generally because the church does not express this theme accurately. They tend to focus on one aspect but neglect others and therefore people become confused and misunderstand what exactly it is that God has done for us through Christ.

As you have said, in its proper context, the cross of Christ is where God's love and justice meet. God is determined to put the world right and to do that He needs to deal with sin. His wrath is manifest against anything that stands in the way of His purposes - to be reconciled with His people. God's wrath has always been an aspect of His love. It was not God's opposition to us that needed to be overcome; God loved us before the foundation of the world and His love for us never changes, even while we were sinners (Romans 5). It was our opposition to Him that needed to be dealt with, and it was only through Jesus's death on the cross that it could happen.

I still have a lot to learn about the cross of Christ - it is a deep subject. But I understand one thing - atonement and deliverance are the two main themes for understanding the cross of Christ. Both are needed. Where one is held up in preference to the other, the view of the cross is distorted.

 

[Carbon]

I know both Christians and non-Christians who have struggled with the theme of substitution and it is my opinion that it is generally because the church does not express this theme accurately. They tend to focus on one aspect but neglect others and therefore people become confused and misunderstand what exactly it is that God has done for us through Christ.

Sister, I think it is pretty clear what scripture teaches Christ has done for his elect.
I also think one of the biggest problems that come into play is sin and His’s holiness.

We have cheapened sin. Sin is not as sinful any longer. And the god humans have created don’t see sin so bad any longer either. Even though in the COR the Trinity agreed on the plan of redemption. Humans just can’t deal with it.

As you have said, in its proper context, the cross of Christ is where God's love and justice meet.

Indeed.

God is determined to put the world right and to do that He needs to deal with sin.

Don’t know what you mean by putting the world right, since there will be a new one. But the Trinity is dealing with sin.

His wrath is manifest against anything that stands in the way of His purposes - to be reconciled with His people. God's wrath has always been an aspect of His love. It was not God's opposition to us that needed to be overcome;

We have offended a Holy God.

God loved us before the foundation of the world and His love for us never changes, even while we were sinners (Romans 5). It was our opposition to Him that needed to be dealt with, and it was only through Jesus's death on the cross that it could happen.

And someone had to stand in our place. God cannot just let sin pass

I still have a lot to learn about the cross of Christ

I believe we all do. Just the measure of grace stops me in my tracks.

- it is a deep subject.

Indeed.

But I understand one thing - atonement and deliverance are the two main themes for understanding the cross of Christ.

To know that God Himself condescended to us as a man. The pure, good, holy, righteous Son of God, creator of the universe, came to us, to take on wrath and die in our place. We do not know the love of God! And we do not fear God.

Both are needed. Where one is held up in preference to the other, the view of the cross is distorted.

When we have some people tainted by Catholicism try to change the meaning of the cross and injecting teaching that confuse people into believing lies, the cross is distorted.

I think it is very important to know and meditate on,
We are saved from God, by God.

 

[Arial]

We have cheapened sin. Sin is not as sinful any longer. And the god humans have created don’t see sin so bad any longer either. Even though in the COR the Trinity agreed on the plan of redemption. Humans just can’t deal with it.

We have also cheapened the holiness of God and tried to find compatibility in the middle, and with man up to God---a man centered system of belief.

 

[Carbon]

We have also cheapened the holiness of God and tried to find compatibility in the middle, and with man up to God---a man centered system of belief.

Indeed

 

[Eleanor]

We are saved from God, by God.

There is no running from God but by running to him,
no fleeing his justice but by fleeing to his mercy.