No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Foghorn]

@brightfame52
No person can come to Christ by their own free will!

If that is the case, how does anyone come? Are we all forced? Do we come against our will?

 

[brightfame52]

@Foghorn

If that is the case, how does anyone come?

Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Eleanor]

God is neither asking nor commanding the impossible.

He is presenting the remedy for the condemned state of mankind, which remedy is accessible only to those with the gift of saving faith.

I noted that you posted no verse in support of the third part.
Let me ask the obvious question … are there “those” to whom the remedy was NEVER “accessible”?
(Which makes God responsible for their reprobation, does it not?)

In justice God owes nothing to his recalitrant (Eph 2:1) enemies (Ro 5:10).
Adam is responsible for our fallen condemned nature and reprobation, just as mama snake is responsible for baby snake's poisonousness and its rattlers.
Forgiveness for Adam's fallen nature is owed to no one, just as forgiveness for the poisonous snake's bite is owed to no one.
Forgiveness being owed to no one, God is not unjust in not forgiving anyone, or in forgiving only some.

This is not an “unthinkable” possibility and I would never whine “God is not fair!”, however, before I accept such a statement as “salvation was never accessible to some” (because God withheld the gift) then I would be more comfortable with some SCRIPTURE that stated that.

Salvation is only by faith (Eph 2:8-9).
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3), a disposition toward God.
Those without the Spirit do not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them.
The gift of faith is not given to all.

 

[Carbon]

@Foghorn



Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Well, if it is given by the Father, we can freely come to Christ, right?

 

[brightfame52]

Well, if it is given by the Father, we can freely come to Christ, right?

As new spiritually alive saved persons, well yeah. In case you dont realize it, Jn 6:44 is speaking about men by nature. The saved can freely come because they have been set free from spiritual death and sins dominion. Not so with the natural man.

 

[Foghorn]

As new spiritually alive saved persons, well yeah.

Well, there you go. So you do believe a man can come to Christ by their own free will once their will has been freed because they are made alive.

 

[Carbon]

As new spiritually alive saved persons, well yeah.

I'm glad you agree.

In case you dont realize it, Jn 6:44 is speaking about men by nature. The saved can freely come because they have been set free from spiritual death and sins dominion. Not so with the natural man.

I realize that, but thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, there you go. So you do believe a man can come to Christ by their own free will once their will has been freed because they are made alive.

Yes because they have been given a new Heart which means a new will as well, one that desires the spiritual things of God now.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm glad you agree.

I realize that, but thanks.

okay

 

[makesends]

Well, there you go. So you do believe a man can come to Christ by their own free will once their will has been freed because they are made alive.

Still depends on what you mean by 'free will'. In this supposed freedom of the will, and in antithesis to the fact that nobody that has not been given faith CAN come to him, ALL that have been given faith will come to him. He will not lose even one of them whom the Father has given to him. So just what do you mean by 'free will', there? It is not as though after regeneration we are somehow able to transcend causation.

Monergism (of a sort) also applies to our sanctification. It is not as though we are capable of doing anything on our own. Freedom in Christ is being his slave.

 

[brightfame52]

Still depends on what you mean by 'free will'. In this supposed freedom of the will, and in antithesis to the fact that nobody that has not been given faith CAN come to him, ALL that have been given faith will come to him. He will not lose even one of them whom the Father has given to him. So just what do you mean by 'free will', there? It is not as though after regeneration we are somehow able to transcend causation.

Monergism (of a sort) also applies to our sanctification. It is not as though we are capable of doing anything on our own. Freedom in Christ is being his slave.

Though I believe within the causation o the power and grace of God the elect[His People] are willing Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Even the willing is the work of God in us Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[Foghorn]

Still depends on what you mean by 'free will'.

Well, simply put, I'm not being forced. I have freely made up my mind to do something, and freely do it.
When Christ gives us life, we are born again. Therefore, we can see the kingdom. When we see Christ is who the scripture proclaims he is (the lover of our souls), we, with all our free will, willingly desire Christ and run to him. Do you agree with this free will?

In this supposed freedom of the will, and in antithesis to the fact that nobody that has not been given faith CAN come to him, ALL that have been given faith will come to him.

And they will come to him freely.

He will not lose even one of them whom the Father has given to him. So just what do you mean by 'free will', there? It is not as though after regeneration we are somehow able to transcend causation.

It means we are now alive, and Christ becomes our irresistible desire. Irresistible grace.

Monergism (of a sort) also applies to our sanctification. It is not as though we are capable of doing anything on our own. Freedom in Christ is being his slave.

Amen!

 

[Foghorn]

Though I believe within the causation o the power and grace of God the elect[His People] are willing Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Even the willing is the work of God in us Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Seems you changed your tune.

Or, have you increased your learning, and this truth is causing it to overflow?

 

[Foghorn]

Well, there you go. So you do believe a man can come to Christ by their own free will once their will has been freed because they are made alive.

@makesends @brightfame52
We must be made alive to trust in Christ, and saving faith always involves an element of trust (an assurance of God's mercy towards us). If we trust, we freely (free will) come to Christ; if we do not trust him, we are not born again, we do not come freely. We do not come at all.

 

[Foghorn]

It’s sure, I say it’s sure quiet around here, you could hear a caterpillar sneakin’ across a moss bed in tennis shoes.

 

[brightfame52]

Seems you changed your tune.

Or, have you increased your learning, and this truth is causing it to overflow?

No I haven't. If you pay attention to what I stated, they are made willing, yet by the power and grace of God. They aren't willing against their will

 

[makesends]

Well, simply put, I'm not being forced. I have freely made up my mind to do something, and freely do it.
When Christ gives us life, we are born again. Therefore, we can see the kingdom. When we see Christ is who the scripture proclaims he is (the lover of our souls), we, with all our free will, willingly desire Christ and run to him. Do you agree with this free will?

And they will come to him freely.

It means we are now alive, and Christ becomes our irresistible desire. Irresistible grace.

Amen!

Two things I would put differently. 1) "Irresistible Grace" is not that Christ becomes our irresistible desire. In fact —at least in my case— I resist him pretty stinking often. "Irresistible Grace" refers specifically to the regeneration of the elect. God does that work irresistibly; he does not consult with nor ask their permission to resurrect the dead. The will is changed. 2) I still do not normally call that changed will, "free will". Not long ago I did, but with the caveat that it only meant that the regenerated freely chose to do what they desired to do. Which translates also to the reprobate —they too always freely choose according to their nature. But both types of freedom are bound.

The years of arguing against freewillers has taken its toll. I rarely use the term anymore, except in remonstrance.

 

[makesends]

Though I believe within the causation o the power and grace of God the elect[His People] are willing Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Even the willing is the work of God in us Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yes. 'Willing' is not the same as 'freewilling'.

 

[makesends]

Well, simply put, I'm not being forced. I have freely made up my mind to do something, and freely do it.

By the way, also, that one is willing does not mean that one is not meticulously caused to do what they do. Our decisions were set in stone when God spoke the universe into existence.

 

[Foghorn]

Two things I would put differently.

Okay

1) "Irresistible Grace" is not that Christ becomes our irresistible desire. In fact —at least in my case— I resist him pretty stinking often. "Irresistible Grace" refers specifically to the regeneration of the elect.

You resisted him often. Okay, but do you now resist him? No, because he was/is irresistible.

God does that work irresistibly; he does not consult with nor ask their permission to resurrect the dead. The will is changed. 2) I still do not normally call that changed will, "free will". Not long ago I did, but with the caveat that it only meant that the regenerated freely chose to do what they desired to do.

Brother, regeneration comes before irresistible grace and faith. To say the opposite is to say man has the ability to believe in his fallen nature.
Regeneration is the Spirit's work of giving a dead man life/a new heart, making him capable of faith, making it possible for a man to respond to God's call. Irresistible grace is the power by which God effectively accomplishes this regeneration and salvation for the elect, leading to faith and repentance, rather than the other way around.

Which translates also to the reprobate —they too always freely choose according to their nature.

Of course. I agree.

But both types of freedom are bound.

The years of arguing against freewillers has taken its toll. I rarely use the term anymore, except in remonstrance.