No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[brightfame52]

@atpollard

I am in the minority, but I would say that man DOES have a free will to believe in Jesus Christ (God has not asked the impossible), however mankind has a fallen nature and, therefore, in 100% of the cases freely chooses to reject God:

Yet when Jesus says man cant come to Him save Divine Intervention Jn 6:44, the word "can" denotes ability. So man doesnt have the freewill ability to believe in Jesus. In act, though its speaking of the elect, its still true of all men by nature, before men are acted upon by Sovereign Mercy, they are imprisoned in unbelief, locked in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].amp

 

[Eleanor]

I am in the minority, but I would say that man DOES have a free will to believe in Jesus Christ (God has not asked the impossible),

God is neither asking nor commanding the impossible.

He is presenting the remedy (Jn 3:18) for the condemned state of mankind (Ro 5:17), which remedy is accessible only to those with the gift of saving faith.

Only the elect are even interested in the gift.
The non-elect couldn't care less about submitting to God.

however mankind has a fallen nature and, therefore, in 100% of the cases freely chooses to reject God:

• And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. - John 3:19-20 [NLT]
• But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. - Romans 1:18-22 [NLT]
• "No one is righteous--not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one." - Romans 3:10-12 [NLT]

God did not damn us, we chose to damn us.
So I do not use the word “CAN NOT” but “WILL NOT”.

 

[atpollard]

He is presenting the remedy (Jn 3:18) for the condemned state of mankind (Ro 5:17), which remedy is accessible only to those with the gift of saving faith.

I noted that you posted no verse in support of the third part.
Let me ask the obvious question … are there “those” to whom the remedy was NEVER “accessible”?
(Which makes God responsible for their reprobation, does it not?)

This is not an “unthinkable” possibility and I would never whine “God is not fair!”, however, before I accept such a statement as “salvation was never accessible to some” (because God withheld the gift) then I would be more comfortable with some SCRIPTURE that stated that.

 

[atpollard]

Yet when Jesus says man cant come to Him save Divine Intervention Jn 6:44, the word "can" denotes ability. So man doesnt have the freewill ability to believe in Jesus.

I will be the first to admit that I am out of my depth when discussing Greek words, however, I can read English and Thayer’s Greek Lexicon identifies the range of meaning of the word as …

• [G1410] (δύναμαι): to be able, have power, whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom;

Within that range falls the possibility that John 6:44 is stating that man lacks the (power/ability) to come to Jesus (period … in other words it is a physical impossibility, thus God is asking the impossible of sinners when he calls them to come to Him). However, it also appears to fall within the range of possible meaning that man has the physical ability, but lacks the state of mind to come to Jesus (unless the Father draws him). As I stated, I am unqualified to split that hair, but I can read John 6:45 and see “It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me” which supports the “state of mind” meaning of “can” [G1410] in John 6:44.

Thus my conclusion that people are physically able to do what God asks, but naturally (mentally) inclined to reject God. Salvation is within reach of all, and all refuse. Thus the need for God to DRAW … to do “something extraordinary” to change the hearts and minds of SOME in order that they will come and be saved.

Damnation is an act of man that God passively allows.
Salvation is an act of God that some men passively receive.

 

[Carbon]

I am in the minority, but I would say that man DOES have a free will to believe in Jesus Christ (God has not asked the impossible),

God does not ask the impossible? So God said, Be perfect, for I am perfect. Are you perfect?

 

[makesends]

@atpollard

"I am in the minority, but I would say that man DOES have a free will to believe in Jesus Christ (God has not asked the impossible), however mankind has a fallen nature and, therefore, in 100% of the cases freely chooses to reject God:"

Yet when Jesus says man cant come to Him save Divine Intervention Jn 6:44, the word "can" denotes ability. So man doesnt have the freewill ability to believe in Jesus. In act, though its speaking of the elect, its still true of all men by nature, before men are acted upon by Sovereign Mercy, they are imprisoned in unbelief, locked in Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all [Jew and Gentile alike].amp

The principle of 'God using means to accomplish his ends' may be applicable here. You say that the word, "can" denotes ability, "...so man doesn't have the freewill ability..." That is a quick step in logic, or rather, a misleading way to explain the situation. I agree with you that man does not have the ability, but the question of Freewill is irrelevant. In other words, while it is true that that unregenerate man cannot because he lacks the ability, he also cannot because God has made sure, precisely everything that happens, exactly as it happens, whether we are aware of the means or not: Unregenerate Man chooses (always) to reject Christ. He cannot BECAUSE he will not.

In Paul's discourse on the subject in Romans 8, the mind of flesh is shown precisely that way. True he cannot please God. But that is because he is at enmity with God.

The same thing applies to many other things that the poo-poo'ers refer to by such words as, "automatic" in their descriptions of Calvinistic tenets. It is not automatic, for example, that Jesus did not sin. The fact is not to be described by, "He could not sin, because he is God", but, "He did not sin, and would not sin, because he is God."

 

[atpollard]

God does not ask the impossible? So God said, Be perfect, for I am perfect. Are you perfect?

Technically, I did not say that God does not ask the impossible (ever), I merely stated that God did not set the conditions for salvation (trust in Jesus) beyond human physical limits.

It is not beyond what men CAN do, only beyond what men are WILLING to do.

Romans 1:18-22 [NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

Is God angry because men could not be perfect, or is God angry because men KNEW what to do, men COULD have done it, and men CHOSE not to do it?

 

[brightfame52]

I will be the first to admit that I am out of my depth when discussing Greek words, however, I can read English and Thayer’s Greek Lexicon identifies the range of meaning of the word as …

• [G1410] (δύναμαι): to be able, have power, whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favorable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom;

Within that range falls the possibility that John 6:44 is stating that man lacks the (power/ability) to come to Jesus (period … in other words it is a physical impossibility, thus God is asking the impossible of sinners when he calls them to come to Him). However, it also appears to fall within the range of possible meaning that man has the physical ability, but lacks the state of mind to come to Jesus (unless the Father draws him). As I stated, I am unqualified to split that hair, but I can read John 6:45 and see “It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me” which supports the “state of mind” meaning of “can” [G1410] in John 6:44.

Thus my conclusion that people are physically able to do what God asks, but naturally (mentally) inclined to reject God. Salvation is within reach of all, and all refuse. Thus the need for God to DRAW … to do “something extraordinary” to change the hearts and minds of SOME in order that they will come and be saved.

Damnation is an act of man that God passively allows.
Salvation is an act of God that some men passively receive.

lol Man doesnt have the ability to believe in Jesus Jn 6:44

 

[brightfame52]

The principle of 'God using means to accomplish his ends' may be applicable here. You say that the word, "can" denotes ability, "...so man doesn't have the freewill ability..." That is a quick step in logic, or rather, a misleading way to explain the situation. I agree with you that man does not have the ability, but the question of Freewill is irrelevant. In other words, while it is true that that unregenerate man cannot because he lacks the ability, he also cannot because God has made sure, precisely everything that happens, exactly as it happens, whether we are aware of the means or not: Unregenerate Man chooses (always) to reject Christ. He cannot BECAUSE he will not.

In Paul's discourse on the subject in Romans 8, the mind of flesh is shown precisely that way. True he cannot please God. But that is because he is at enmity with God.

The same thing applies to many other things that the poo-poo'ers refer to by such words as, "automatic" in their descriptions of Calvinistic tenets. It is not automatic, for example, that Jesus did not sin. The fact is not to be described by, "He could not sin, because he is God", but, "He did not sin, and would not sin, because he is God."

Man does not have the ability to believe in Jesus Jn 6:44,65

Also man by nature from the fall in adam is locked in unbelief/disobedience. In fact we have a nature that cant obey, so much so, we are called the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

 

[atpollard]

But aren't we naturally inclined to reject Christ?

Absolutely. As a lion follows his lion nature and will kill and eat the lamb, so human beings follow our human nature.
And what is our “human nature”? Exactly the same s that of Adam and Eve:

• [Genesis 3:4-8 NLT] 4 "You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman. 5 "God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil." 6 The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7 At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. 8 When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking about in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees.

We doubt that God really has our best interest at heart.
We want to be like God … we want autonomy.
We choose sin and we feel shame and we run and hide from God.

• [John 3:19-20 NLT] 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
• [Ephesians 2:1-3 NLT] 1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else.

Genesis 3, John 3, Ephesians 2 … it is the same story over and over … it is who we are. Human nature.

Since we are dead to the things of the spirit, as they must be spiritually appraised, we are incapable of such. Until, as Jesus said, "Except a man be born again," John 3:3.

The “Kingdom of God” (whose entry fee is ‘born again’ or ‘born from above’) is something beyond mere “salvation unto eternal life”. Many in the OT were chosen for eternity, but they longed to be born from above and died without seeing that day. It is the reason why the least in the Kingdom is greater than even John the Baptist.

Abraham was the father of all who have faith, and he believed without being born from above. Men WILL NOT seek God without the irresistible draw of God (“I chose you”, said God. Is universal.). The rebirth does not seem to be quite as universal.

Of course, we did this to ourself, or representive, Adam.

I have mixed feelings about the whole “federal headship” of Adam issue. On the one hand, we definitely seem to have some things whose blame can be laid at Adam’s feet. On the other hand, I see a strong “victim mentality” tendency to blame Adam for everything and refuse to accept any real responsibility for our personal choice to sin. That ain’t me. I did bad things and is was NOT the Devil or Adam that made me do it. The buck stops with me. It was my choice and those were my sins. Circumstances were the reason, but they were not the cause and they do not make me innocent. I think we need to own more of our choices to sin. Yes Adam screwed us, but we certainly took the hand that we had been dealt and ran with it!

 

[atpollard]

lol Man doesnt have the ability to believe in Jesus Jn 6:44

… because of man’s state of mind, not because God asked the impossible.

 

[brightfame52]

… because of man’s state of mind, not because God asked the impossible.

Man is dead to God. God doesnt ask people to believe in Jesus either. He draws them by Divine Intervention, does that sound like asking ?

 

[brightfame52]

Technically, I did not say that God does not ask the impossible (ever), I merely stated that God did not set the conditions for salvation (trust in Jesus) beyond human physical limits.

It is not beyond what men CAN do, only beyond what men are WILLING to do.

Romans 1:18-22 [NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. 21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.

Is God angry because men could not be perfect, or is God angry because men KNEW what to do, men COULD have done it, and men CHOSE not to do it?

In Rom 1:18-22 where does God ask people to believe in Jesus ? These people are spiritually dead being described.

God has a people He calls to Christ through the Gospel Rom 1 6-7

6 ;Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:28-30

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[atpollard]

God doesnt ask people to believe in Jesus either. He draws them by Divine Intervention, does that sound like asking ?

[John 6:24-40 ESV]
24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, "Rabbi, when did you come here?" 26 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." 30 So they said to him, "Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

• (NOTE: you DO NOT believe … man’s choice … not you CANNNOT believe … man’s inability.)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

THAT sound like asking He is asking!

 

[atpollard]

In Rom 1:18-22 where does God ask people to believe in Jesus ?

That was not the point that I was attempting to make with Romans 1:18-22, so it comes as no surprise that the point not made is not found there. Was God angry because the people in Romans 1 were not perfect as God is perfect?

 

[Carbon]

Technically, I did not say that God does not ask the impossible (ever), I merely stated that God did not set the conditions for salvation (trust in Jesus) beyond human physical limits.

It is not beyond what men CAN do, only beyond what men are WILLING to do.

My apologies. I must have assumed.

That does change things. But prob a different subject?

 

[makesends]

Man does not have the ability to believe in Jesus Jn 6:44,65

Also man by nature from the fall in adam is locked in unbelief/disobedience. In fact we have a nature that cant obey, so much so, we are called the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

Can you prove me wrong? What I said agrees with that.

There is a way things happen....