No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[makesends]

makesends said:
God does that work irresistibly; he does not consult with nor ask their permission to resurrect the dead. The will is changed. 2) I still do not normally call that changed will, "free will". Not long ago I did, but with the caveat that it only meant that the regenerated freely chose to do what they desired to do.

Brother, regeneration comes before irresistible grace and faith. To say the opposite is to say man has the ability to believe in his fallen nature.
Regeneration is the Spirit's work of giving a dead man life/a new heart, making him capable of faith, making it possible for a man to respond to God's call. Irresistible grace is the power by which God effectively accomplishes this regeneration and salvation for the elect, leading to faith and repentance, rather than the other way around.

Do you think I deny this? What did I say that denies this? But regeneration is part of irresistible grace (and faith). It does not make him 'capable' of saving faith. ...it plants saving faith within him.

 

[Foghorn]

makesends said:
God does that work irresistibly; he does not consult with nor ask their permission to resurrect the dead. The will is changed. 2) I still do not normally call that changed will, "free will". Not long ago I did, but with the caveat that it only meant that the regenerated freely chose to do what they desired to do.

Do you think I deny this?

No, I say no, I dont think you do.

What did I say that denies this?

But regeneration is part of irresistible grace (and faith). It does not make him 'capable' of saving faith. ...it plants saving faith within him.

Well, we are saved by grace, through faith.
It's all of grace. By grace, we are regenerated. Once regenerated, Christ becomes irresistable. Not that we are automatically hoplessly crazy about him, but we just cannot resist him any longer, we just cant hear enough of him, can't get him out of out heads.
And no, I do not think you deny this.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. 'Willing' is not the same as 'freewilling'.

That depends, both have the connotation of voluntariness

 

[makesends]

That depends, both have the connotation of voluntariness

Sure they do. So what? Doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

Everybody has a different concept of what freewill is / is not.

 

[makesends]

No, I say no, I dont think you do.



Well, we are saved by grace, through faith.
It's all of grace. By grace, we are regenerated. Once regenerated, Christ becomes irresistable. Not that we are automatically hoplessly crazy about him, but we just cannot resist him any longer, we just cant hear enough of him, can't get him out of out heads.
And no, I do not think you deny this.

There is truth to that (Christ becomes irresistible), but that is more poetic than technically true. We resist him daily —some of us hourly.

But, whatever the case, the Reformed tenet from TULIP, "Irresistible Grace", is not about Christ becoming irresistible. It is about the grace of regeneration being accomplished by God alone, entirely independent of any action on our part.

 

[Carbon]

There is truth to that (Christ becomes irresistible), but that is more poetic than technically true. We resist him daily —some of us hourly.

But, whatever the case, the Reformed tenet from TULIP, "Irresistible Grace", is not about Christ becoming irresistible. It is about the grace of regeneration being accomplished by God alone, entirely independent of any action on our part.

Respectfully, brother, but I think you're mixing irresistible grace with prevenient grace. I think if we give focus to us resisting Christ in the salvation process (as you mentioned how you resisted Christ for some time), that is prevenient grace, because it's a grace that is working on us, hoping to make the right decision finally.
But on the other hand, irresistible grace is but a divine calling that, when given, cannot be ultimately denied by the recipient. The focus would be on noticing we are irresistibly drawn to Christ because we are regenerated, but as it is until glory, we of the flesh naturally resist.

Now I have been wrong numerous times, and there is always the chance I am wrong here, but I dont think so. But if you see where I may be wrong, please elaborate.

 

[brightfame52]

All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religious and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 4

 

[brightfame52]

Sure they do. So what? Doesn't mean that they are the same thing.

Everybody has a different concept of what freewill is / is not.

lol well if they do, they do

 

[Eleanor]

Well, there you go. So you do believe a man can come to Christ by their own free will once their will has been freed because they are made alive.

Human "free will" is not presented in the NT.

The human will is not "free," it is governed by the disposition and chooses what the dispositon prefers, which In the case of fallen nature is not God.The Holy Spirit must transform the disposition through the new birth for a sinner to prefer and to choose God.

 

[makesends]

Respectfully, brother, but I think you're mixing irresistible grace with prevenient grace. I think if we give focus to us resisting Christ in the salvation process (as you mentioned how you resisted Christ for some time),

I must not have been clear. You and I appear to be talking about different things, here. I not talking about resisting Christ in the salvation process. I resist Christ NOW, daily, sometimes hourly, many many years after becoming born again.

that is prevenient grace, because it's a grace that is working on us, hoping to make the right decision finally.

I do not believe in 'prevenient grace' at all. No matter how you describe regeneration, it is accomplished by the Spirit of God, who is God himself. He doesn't ask for permission to give us regeneration.

But on the other hand, irresistible grace is but a divine calling that, when given, cannot be ultimately denied by the recipient. The focus would be on noticing we are irresistibly drawn to Christ because we are regenerated, but as it is until glory, we of the flesh naturally resist.

Taking it down to brass tacks, we do not respond positively UNLESS God has given us re-birth, 'raising us from dead to alive'. He changes our will entirely independent of the set of our will prior to changing it. He does not consult us, or ask if we are willing. He does it.

I don't know if that is different from what you are describing. Maybe my way of putting it is not what I have always taken to mean, that we are saved by grace alone. That is what I have always assumed that 'Irresistible Grace' refers to. A gracious act of God, entirely independent of any input by the recipient of that grace. That we subsequently respond is another question. Yes, we always respond. But that response is only subsequent.

Now I have been wrong numerous times, and there is always the chance I am wrong here, but I dont think so. But if you see where I may be wrong, please elaborate.

You only misunderstood me, I think.

 

[makesends]

Okay

You resisted him often. Okay, but do you now resist him? No, because he was/is irresistible.

When believers are told, "quench not the Spirit", it is referring to the Spirit of God, who is also the Spirit of Christ. It would not be necessary to tell believers not to quench the Spirit if they did not sometimes do it. When we quench the Spirit, we are resisting Christ. And in my case, often.

I'm not talking about resisting him before I was born again. To me that is like saying, "A sinner sins". Lol, "Well, Yeah, Hello".

But, as I was trying to say, "Irresistible Grace", in TULIP, is not about Christ becoming irresistible to us, but about the gift of the Spirit in regenerating us. Maybe I'm wrong.

Brother, regeneration comes before irresistible grace and faith. To say the opposite is to say man has the ability to believe in his fallen nature.
Regeneration is the Spirit's work of giving a dead man life/a new heart, making him capable of faith, making it possible for a man to respond to God's call. Irresistible grace is the power by which God effectively accomplishes this regeneration and salvation for the elect, leading to faith and repentance, rather than the other way around.

I'm by no means saying that faith precedes regeneration. But the term, "Irresistible Grace", is about that regeneration—not about Christ becoming irresistible—(though in a real sense, yes, he is irresistible, though I resist him often as a regenerated believer.)

Maybe I'm wrong.

Regeneration necessarily includes faith given. Salvific faith is not my doing, but God's doing in me. I did not agree to have faith, until it was already done in me. Repentance is also a gift. Not just the deed of repenting, nor even just the ability to choose to actually repent, but an attitude built in me by God himself. All these are the result of God himself indwelling the believer, BEFORE he even realizes it.

Of course. I agree.

 

[brightfame52]

@makesends

But, as I was trying to say, "Irresistible Grace", in TULIP, is not about Christ becoming irresistible to us, but about the gift of the Spirit in regenerating us. Maybe I'm wrong.

I agree with this, and I believe the drawing of Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, just stated in an unusual way

 

[Carbon]

@makesends



I agree with this, and I believe the drawing of Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, just stated in an unusual way

So, when you were regenerated (assuming you were), Christ didn't become irresistible? To me, he did, even though I resisted, I still couldn't get enough of him.

 

[Carbon]

@makesends



I agree with this, and I believe the drawing of Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, just stated in an unusual way

I'll ask you to explain what you mean here. Thanks

 

[Carbon]

@makesends



I agree with this, and I believe the drawing of Jn 6:44;12:32 is regeneration, just stated in an unusual way

This drawing is an internal effectual calling by God which causes saving faith. This drawing is an irresistible grace that enables us to exercise faith in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

So, when you were regenerated (assuming you were), Christ didn't become irresistible? To me, he did, even though I resisted, I still couldn't get enough of him.

I think you talking about something different.

 

[brightfame52]

I'll ask you to explain what you mean here. Thanks

That drawing and regeneration are one and the same.

 

[brightfame52]

This drawing is an internal effectual calling by God which causes saving faith. This drawing is an irresistible grace that enables us to exercise faith in Christ.

I believe regeneration begins all of it and is the cause of all of it. Regeneration effects conversion

 

[Carbon]

I think you talking about something different.

Okay, let's leave it at that.

 

[Carbon]

That drawing and regeneration are one and the same.

Synonymous