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No Deal with the Devil: Christ's Ransom and the Justice of God

I’m interested in the fact that you’re a Calvinist Baptist. Those are your thoughts on John Calvin, what are your thoughts on his contemporaries, Thomas Hobbes and Martin Luther?

Especially Thomas Hobbes, since besides writing Behemoth and Leviathan, he invented the Thompson Gun, and inspired the mighty Who’s two volume English rock opera “Tommy”, which some longhaired hippy type pinkos in London apparently think is as good as Johnny Cash’s electric two volume folio “The Gospel”?

Johnny Cash was an American Baptist.

You might like to read the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and compare it to the WCF ...

It's an enjoyable task to find out the difference.

https://www.the1689confession.com/
https://prts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Westminster_Confession.pdf
 
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The true nature of our bondage.

We are in bondage to sin and death—sin as a result of the old nature in Adam, and death as the consequence of sin. We are only secondarily in bondage to Satan and only as a result of our sin;
So is unbelief part of the old nature in Adam and in bondage to Satan ?
 
I will say so too. So does Christ ransom from unbelief?

It is a financial exchange in the ordinary sense, so you have to find things that would qualify on their end as ransom holders. I don't think the abstract term 'unbelief' does that. John explained that God's justice demands a 'payment'. Normally a ransom holder is a person.

You could qualify it and say Christ ransoms from the debt of unbelief, a debt concept that was created by the righteousness of God. (Many passages about righteousness or justification refer to the barrier as being a debt).
 
It is a financial exchange in the ordinary sense, so you have to find things that would qualify on their end as ransom holders. I don't think the abstract term 'unbelief' does that. John explained that God's justice demands a 'payment'. Normally a ransom holder is a person.

You could qualify it and say Christ ransoms from the debt of unbelief, a debt concept that was created by the righteousness of God. (Many passages about righteousness or justification refer to the barrier as being a debt).
Yes Christ redeemed the elect from all iniquity Titus 2:14 which includes unbelief
 
I will say so too. So does Christ ransom from unbelief?
No. Christ died for those who do believe. Those who believe are those he gives to Christ. Those who believe are those he has sent the Holy Spirit to regenerate, giving the faith necessary for justification, imputing Christ's righteousness to them.

The ransom was Christ paying the just debt of their sins, saving them from the wrath of God against those sins. It is called penal substitution.
 
No. Christ died for those who do believe. Those who believe are those he gives to Christ. Those who believe are those he has sent the Holy Spirit to regenerate, giving the faith necessary for justification, imputing Christ's righteousness to them.

The ransom was Christ paying the just debt of their sins, saving them from the wrath of God against those sins. It is called penal substitution.
Christ died for them that believe because they were by Him redeemed from all iniquity which includes unbelief.
 
Christ died for them that believe because they were by Him redeemed from all iniquity which includes unbelief.
The question you asked was about whether Christ ransomed from unbelief. My answer is still no. The ransom was for the debt of sin. In the above statement, instead of considering what I said about the ransom, you changed the subject to what the believer is redeemed from. It is called moving the goal post (though it can also go by other terms). A fallacy. And now, according to the rules, you either need to concede, yep, that is what you did or prove that you did not do that.
 
The question you asked was about whether Christ ransomed from unbelief. My answer is still no
Well I disagree with you because unbelief is inquity, sin and Jesus redeemed them He died for from all inquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If He doesn't do that no one could believe.
 
The question you asked was about whether Christ ransomed from unbelief. My answer is still no. The ransom was for the debt of sin. In the above statement, instead of considering what I said about the ransom, you changed the subject to what the believer is redeemed from. It is called moving the goal post (though it can also go by other terms). A fallacy. And now, according to the rules, you either need to concede, yep, that is what you did or prove that you did not do that.

Well I disagree with you because unbelief is inquity, sin and Jesus redeemed them He died for from all inquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If He doesn't do that no one could believe.
Brightfame, you are making the same error in logic here as in your assertion elsewhere that the elect, redeemed by Christ's sacrifice, forgiven through Christ's work on the cross, are from that time forward forgiven. You are engaging in false equivalence by way of a category error.

In that earlier context, you might as well say that the elect are born saved, so also here: You might as well say that the unbelief is the debt.
 
Well I disagree with you because unbelief is inquity, sin and Jesus redeemed them He died for from all inquity Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

If He doesn't do that no one could believe.
Not only did you not deal with the fallacy as the rules require, but you repeated it. Redemption and Ransom are two distinct things. You are posting as though they are the exact same thing. It was the ransom paid that made redemption possible.
 
Brightfame, you are making the same error in logic here as in your assertion elsewhere that the elect, redeemed by Christ's sacrifice, forgiven through Christ's work on the cross, are from that time forward forgiven. You are engaging in false equivalence by way of a category error.

In that earlier context, you might as well say that the elect are born saved, so also here: You might as well say that the unbelief is the debt.
I'm saying that the elect are redeemed from unbelief by Christ redeeming death and purified unto zealous good works. Titus 2:14 see by nature the elect are under the power of sin and unbelief. Unbelief is a work of the devil, his captivity. Christ destroyed the works of the devil for the elect, so they are given a new heart to believe in Christ.
 
Not only did you not deal with the fallacy as the rules require, but you repeated it. Redemption and Ransom are two distinct things. You are posting as though they are the exact same thing. It was the ransom paid that made redemption possible.
All you doing is finding a way to shut down the thread or punish me,go right ahead.
 
All you doing is finding a way to shut down the thread or punish me,go right ahead.
Paranoid much?

It is reasonable to expect someone to post in good faith and properly attend to those who are interacting with you.
 
Unbelief is a work of the devil, his captivity. Christ destroyed the works of the devil for the elect, so they are given a new heart to believe in Christ.
More false equivalence. Unbelief is the work of the heart of the individual unbeliever. That it is sinful, there is no doubt.

And not that the devil has no work there, and no captivity, but it is not the devil who accepts the redemption payment.
 
More false equivalence. Unbelief is the work of the heart of the individual unbeliever. That it is sinful, there is no doubt.

And not that the devil has no work there, and no captivity, but it is not the devil who accepts the redemption payment.
Yes the devil has much to do with unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4;In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not
, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Lk 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved
 
Yes the devil has much to do with unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4;In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not
, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Lk 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved
That the devil has much to do with unbelief—how does that make your point? The price paid resulting in redemption is not paid to the devil.
 
[NOTE: I wrote the following article nearly ten years ago and during my Reformed Baptist phase (c. 2016). I quickly reviewed it while formatting it for posting here and it seems basically okay. I think my writing has improved since then, but I don't have the time or energy to draft a revised edition. My beliefs pertaining to this subject have not changed substantively since that time, so it can remain as-is.]

He gave his life as a ransom

Scripture clearly describes the atoning work of Jesus in terms of a ransom, either directly as in Mark 10:45 ("[Jesus came] to give his life as a ransom for many") or indirectly as in Romans 8:2 ("For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death"). A series of sermons could be done on this subject, but I think we can all agree that this language is surely used in scripture.

The meaning of ransom in scripture

To ransom something is to pay a price in order to redeem or secure the freedom thereof. It is the price paid to redeem someone from bondage or captivity. [1] There are three essential elements that are involved in this image:
  1. "the bondage or special circumstance from which the person, object, or animal needs to be freed;
  2. "the payment of a redemption price;
  3. "an intermediary acting to secure the redemption." [2]
So, the purpose of characterizing his atoning work in terms of a ransom is to emphasize both how much it cost God to redeem us [3] and how incapable we are of redeeming ourselves from bondage. [4] The main idea seems to be what the ransom paid for and not who it was paid to.

Evaluating the ransom-to-Satan idea

There was an idea which dates back to Origen that the ransom was paid to Satan, but that idea is simply not biblical and was repudiated centuries ago. Here are some reasons:

First, the Bible never mentions to whom the ransom was paid. But if Christ paid the ransom to anyone it would have been his Father in heaven, for it is God's justice that demanded a ransom. It was God who said that the wages of sin is death, that the soul who sins shall die, that those who practice sin deserve to die, that the end of sin is death, that sin fully grown produces death. [5] It was not Satan who demanded a ransom, but the holiness and justice of God. It was not Satan but God whose holiness was offended by sin and who required a penalty to be paid for sin. [6]

Second, it should be offensive to the Christian soul to hear anyone suggest that Satan could ever place God in a position of having to negotiate for our release from bondage. Satan is not God's equal in power or rule, implying a kind of cosmic dualism. He is a fallen angelic being created by God and therefore subject to God's sovereign rule. Moreover, he was thrown out of heaven, cast down to the earth as a defeated enemy. He is in no position to make demands of heaven.

Third, God never surrendered or gave up ownership of mankind. "All souls are mine," God says. [7] Satan is an illegitimate slave master, for human beings are illegal runaways. It would be unjust for God to redeem us from Satan for a price because such a transaction would tacitly legitimize Satan's ownership, when God has been the rightful owner all along—not only of mankind but even of Satan himself.

Finally, Scripture says it was to God that Jesus paid the price, for it was his holy justice that demanded a ransom. [8]

The true nature of our bondage.

We are in bondage to sin and death—sin as a result of the old nature in Adam, and death as the consequence of sin. We are only secondarily in bondage to Satan and only as a result of our sin; in other words, Satan became our slave master only because sin had become our master beforehand. [9] Satan would have no rule over us otherwise. Consider the words of Jesus when he told his disciples that the ruler of this world was coming: "He has no claim on me" (John 14:30). Because Jesus was without sin, the evil one had no hold or power. Our bondage is primarily to sin and death; let us not give the devil more power and rule than scripture gives him.

So, the old nature is in bondage to sin, the debt for which is death under divine wrath. If Satan did not put us in bondage, then who did? God did—on account of our sin, to uphold his justice and to redeem us by grace, all for the sake of his glory. It was the holiness and justice of God [10] that demanded the death penalty for sin.
  • God told Adam, "You must not eat from [that tree], for when you eat from it you will surely die" (Gen. 2:17).
  • "The wicked will be captured by his own iniquities, and he will be held by the cords of his own sin. He will die because there was no discipline; because of the greatness of his folly he will reel" (Prov. 5:22-23).
  • Scripture says that "the one who sins will die" (Ezek. 18:4).
  • We know that "sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12).
  • "The payoff of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23; cf. v. 21).
  • Paul declared that we were dead in our transgression and sins (Col. 2:13; Eph. 2:1, 5).
  • Jesus said that "unless you believe I am he"—the promised Messiah—"you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
  • In Romans 11:32 he tells us that "God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all."
  • Death is the destructive consequence of a broken covenant that can only be reversed by God's life-giving power (Ezek. 37; cf. 2 Tim. 1:10).
In order for us to be freed from this bondage to sin and death, the ransom had to be paid. The life, death, and resurrection of Christ paid that price for all who believe in his name, because by his life and death he won victory over sin and by his resurrection he conquered death. And even though we don't see all things under his control yet (Hebrews 2:8), the time is coming when he will finally conquer every one of his enemies—and "the last enemy to be eliminated is death" (1 Corinthians 15:25-26; cf. Revelation 20:14, "then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire").

Victory over sin and death—and Satan

The wages of sin is death (in Adam), whereas the gift of righteousness is life (in Christ). Out of our bondage by sin to death we were redeemed by grace to life. It was life we had forfeited, and it was life that Christ brought to light through the gospel, for he is life. [11] The antithesis described in redemptive history is death and life, from that fateful moment in the garden to today. "At the heart of the ransom image is the idea of paying a price to regain something that will otherwise be forfeited. Redemption thus carries double connotations: It implies deliverance and restitution in addition to a cost that must be paid." [12] Jesus said that those who hear his message and believe the one who sent him, the Father, "has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24).

Furthermore, in redeeming us from sin and death by giving his life as a ransom, Jesus Christ automatically redeemed us from Satan—without anything being paid to him. Recall the powerful words of Colossians 2:13-15: "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross" (NLT).
  • Hebrews 2:14-15, "Therefore … he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death." [13]
  • 2 Timothy 1:10, "Our Savior Christ Jesus … has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
  • John 5:24, "The one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life."
  • Colossians 1:13-14, "[The Father] delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Christ's death ransomed sinners from the death penalty imposed by God's perfect holiness and justice. He conquered death and spoiled the grave. The dominion of death rests on two bases: sin, which incurs condemnation, and the law, which pronounces condemnation. The passive and active obedience of Christ thereby broke the power of death and robbed it of its sting, through putting away sin by his sacrifice and conquering death by his resurrection.
  • Hebrews 9:26, "But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice."
  • Romans 6:6, "Our old [nature] was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."
  • Isaiah 25:8, "[The LORD] will swallow up death permanently."
  • 1 Corinthians 15:54-55, "Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’ Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O grave, is your sting?"
  • 2 Timothy 1:10, "Our Savior Christ Jesus … has broken the power of death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel!"
The Atonement of Jesus indeed had Him conquering and being Victor over Satan, but the primary aspect of it would be found in his atoning work as being a penal Substitutionary atonement viewpoint
 
That the devil has much to do with unbelief—how does that make your point? The price paid resulting in redemption is not paid to the devil.
Christ Death destroyed the works of the devil 1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ destroyed unbelief for the elect. Christ redeemed the elect from all iniquity, the works of the devil who had us captive in unbelief
 
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