Mystery of the most holy trinity!

[Rella]

Your church was not founded by Christ.

Pagan religion is your church.

While yours is a Pagan Cult. Denying things that are fact.

You are so hyper against anything that even suggests anything of the Trinity I need to remind you..................................................

You claim to believe and follow Jesus. Is that not true.

Are you aware that it was the very one you claim to follow and worship and believe that actually started the very first original church?

Its true....

Go to your bible of choice and read Matthew 16:18

My bible choice is NASB95 which states

NASB 1995
“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The JW bible of choice says it this way

New World Translation
Also, I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it.

And another anti-Trin bible....

The book of Mormon
Also, I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave will not overpower it.

So, go on and get your out and read that verse THEN PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION......

Your Jesus was talking to Peter.....YOU CANNOT DENY IT IT IS IN EVERY BIBLE I HAVE EVER READ.

And Jesus was talking about the first...... 1st...... FIRST church, or congregation (NWT)

And the very plain truth of this is that one church (of many) you despise... as you despise all that are Trinitarian believers ~ The Roman Catholic Church is the very one that chose Peter.... (Jesus' Peter) to be their first Pope.

So the man Jesus taught in person, and the man that Jesus chose in Matthew 16:18... is the man who became the first Roman Catholic Pope.

Now dont you think that if Peter taught the RCC about the Trinity... which he had to have learned from Jesus.... it is FACT?


Due to size i am posting part 2.

 

[Rella]

Adding part 2

Did the apostles believe God was a Trinity?

During Jesus's ministry, he gathered together an inner circle of disciples who were 12 in number, i.e. "the 12 apostles." These disciples were especially…

beliefmap.org

Did the apostles believe God was a Trinity?​

• Our question​

  
  During Jesus's ministry, he gathered together an inner circle of disciples who were 12 in number, i.e. "the 12 apostles." These disciples were especially close to Jesus and were taught by him as students. We mean to ask here whether these close disciples of Jesus, apostles who went on to lead the church after Jesus died, taught that God was triune (i.e. one being endowed with three centers of consciousness, of which Jesus was one).

“Yes, after all…

• Polycarp affirms the Trinity​

  
  Polycarp affirms the trinity.1 This is relevant because Polycarp's teachings matched that of the apostles.

  1. • Polycarp (writting in c. AD 110-140): “May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God, help you to grow in faith and truth, in unfailing gentleness and the avoidance of all anger, in patience and forbearance, and in calmness and purity. To you, and to ourselves as well, and to all those under heaven who shall one day come to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ and in His Father who raised Him from the dead, may He grant part and portion among His saints.” [Polycarp to the Phillipians Section 12]

• Clement affirms the Trinity​

  
  Clement affirms the trinity. This is relevant because Clement's teachings matched that of the apostles.1
  1. Consider three reasons to think their teachings largely matched:
     Irenaus reports that they matched.
     

     Irenaeus (writing in c. AD 180): “The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man […][Against Heresies, Vol. 3, Ch. 3]

     Clement was bishop of Rome. This is relevant because this is unlikely if Clement did not know the apostles.
     The Clement in Phillippians is Clement of Rome.2 This is relevant because it indicates Clement's teachings matched Paul's (who wrote Phillipians), and this in turn is relevant because Paul's teachings matched the apostles. The reason to think the Clement in Phillians is the Clement of Rome is the following.
     
     
  2. The reason to think the Clement in Phillipians is Clement of Rome is as follows: both are associated with members of Caesar's houshold.
     • Clement of Rome is plausibly associated with members of Caesar's household (See names characteristic of household:
     

     • Clement (writing in AD 96): “Make haste and send our messengers, Claudius Ephebus, Valerius Vito, and Fortunatus, back to us in peace and joy…” [Epistle to the Corinthians Section 65]).
     • Clement: “As Nero belonged to the Claudian family, and his consort Messalina to the Valerian, several instances have been found of the two names Claudius (or Claudia) and Valerius (or Valeria) occurring in combination with reference to servants in the royal employment. Possibly this is the case here. It has even been conjectured that these two elderly envoys may have been among the members of 'Caesar's household' mentioned by St Paul in Philippians iv, 22.”

     • Clement in Phillipians is associated with members of Caesar's household (Philippians 4:22 “All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.”)

• Ignatius affirms the Trinity​

  
  Ignatius affirms the trinity.1 This is relevant because Ignatius's teachings matched that of the apostles.2

  1. • Ignatius (writing in AD 107): “There is only one Physician -- Very flesh, yet Spirit too; Uncreated, and yet born; God-and-Man in One agreed, Very-Life-in-Death indeed, Fruit of God and Mary’s seed; At once impassible and torn By pain and suffering here below; Jesus Christ, whom as our Lord we know.”[Epistle to Ephesians Section 7]
     • Ignatius (writing in AD 107): “Deaf as stones you were: yes, stones for the Father’s Temple, stones trimmed ready for God to build with, hoisted up by the derick of Jesus Christ (the cross) with the Holy Spirit for a cable; your faith being the winch that draws you to God, up the ramp of love.” [Epistle to Ephesians Section 9,]
     • Ignatius (writing in AD 107): “As for me, my spirit is now all humble devotion to the Cross: the Cross which so greatly offends the unbelievers, but is salvation and eternal life to us. Where is your wise man now, or your subtle debater? Where are the fine words of our so-called intellectuals? Under the divine dispensation, Jesus Christ our God was conceived by Mary of the seed of David and of the Spirit of God; He was born, and He submitted to baptism, so that by His passion He might sanctify water.” [Epistle to Ephesians Section 18]
     • Ignatius (writing in AD 107): “Glory be to Jesus Christ, the Divine One who has gifted you with such wisdom. I have seen how immovably settled in faith you are; nailed body and soul, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, and rooted and grounded in love by His blood. You hold the firmest convictions about our Lord; believing Him to be truly of David’s line in His manhood, yet Son of God by the Divine will and power, truly born of a Virgin; baptized by John for His fulfilling of all righteousness…”

  2. There are two reasons to think Ignatius's teachings matched the apostles:
     • Ignatius's teachings match Polycarp's. And this is relevant because [Polycarp's teachings matched the apostles].
     • Ignatius was a disciple of John. (He was a close friend with Polycarp, who was a disciple of John). And this is relevant becase John was an apostle.

• Mathetes affirms the Trinity​

  
  [Put under: Apostles believed Jesus was God]
  Mathetes affirms that Jesus is Divine.1 This is relevant becaues Mathetes's teaching matched the apostles.2

  1. • Mathetes (writing between AD 130-2nd century): “How can anyone, who has been rightly taught and learnt to love the Word, not wish to be told the precise nature of the revelations which that Word so openly made to his disciples? Visibly present among them, the Word made His disclosures to them in the plainest of language; though unrecognized by the unbelieving, He disclosed without reserve to the disciples; and because they were reckoned faithful by Him, they came to know the mysteries of God. That was the purpose for which God sent the Word to be manifested to the world. He was despised by the Chosen people, but preached by the Apostles and believed in by the Gentiles. Though He has existed since the beginning, He came as one appearing newly; though we know Him to be from old, He is born ever anew in the hearts of His saints. This is He who is from everlasting, this is He who is accounted this day a Son. Through Him, the Church is enriched; abounding grace is multiplied among the saints, furnishing understanding, revealing mysteries, proclaiming times and seasons, and rejoicing over the faithful believers – the grace which is granted to every seeker who does not violate the vows of faith, or transgress the bounds fixed by the Fathers.” [Epistle to Diognetus, Section 11]

  2. [Immediately after the quote above]
     

     • Mathetes (writing between AD 130-2nd century): “Although I am an instructor of the Gentiles now, I was a pupil of the Apostles once; and what was delivered to me then, I now minister faithfully to students of the truth.” [Epistle to Diognetus, Section 11]

• Paul affirms the Trinity​

  
  Paul affirms the God is a Trinity. This is relevant because [Paul's teachings matched that of the apostles].

 

[Rella]

they used to believe God is not triune.

they used to be pacifists, but not anymore.

They are going down with RCC like the rest of unfaithful professed believers.

The church who chose Jesus' Peter to be their first pope..... Peter who taught them about the Trinity he learded from Jesus.

Go read my last 2 responses to you.

they are trying to pacify the majority.

nothing new under the sun.

 

[Rella]

Then why do you reject John 17:3 which explicitly and objectively identifies the Father as the only true God when Jesus is not the Father?

Because you are clueless to understand what is in front of your eyes.

 

[Rella]

Same way it applies here:

Acts 17
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Wait a minute.... what is this Godhead mentioned in Acts 17:29

You cannot have a Godhead... You mean like the head of a corporation or the head of a country? What is this "Godhead"

 

[Rella]

God is eternal!
The eternal father
(((absolutely requires))) an eternal offspring and we don’t qualify!

But the Son only came into existence some 2400 give or take years ago. Before that there never was a mention of a SON. Before 6,000 years ago PLUS there could not have been a son cause there were no women..... not even female angels. So eternity then had to start somewhere around
30 AD give or take.....

Sorry for having monopolized this this morning.... Ill move onView attachment 848

 

[donadams]

So in your logic, becaseu Father is eternal all His creations are eternal too?

I guess that is consistent with your doctrine that Jesus is God because God is God and His Son is also God.

bye, friend.

The nature of a son is that of His father

To be an eternal father there must be an eternal offspring in this case the son of God!

 

[donadams]

But the Son only came into existence some 2400 give or take years ago. Before that there never was a mention of a SON. Before 6,000 years ago PLUS there could not have been a son cause there were no women..... not even female angels. So eternity then had to start somewhere around
30 AD give or take.....

Sorry for having monopolized this this morning.... Ill move onView attachment 848

Eternally begotten son

Begotten not made!

Jn 1:1 “in the beginning was the word”!

(((Only God existed “in the beginning”)))

Eternal!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

(((Requirement of this site)))

Nicene Creed!

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.

 

[Rella]

Eternally begotten son

Who was his eternal mother... unless modeling clay was used he was not begotten (Alternative definition withstanding)

Begotten not made

I never said he was made... I said the son was begotten 2400+years ago. As to the Word... we were never told beans about him other then Genesis and the first time I remember reading in depth about a Son was Matthew 1 and forward. The mortal man... was the Son God the Father was proud of... before that what did he ever say about the Word

Jn 1:1 “in the beginning was the word”!

Yeppers... The word spoke creattion into being during genesis.... that was our beginning... no foul there

(((Only God existed “in the beginning”)))

Therefore there was no eternal son... begotten or not

Eternal!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Thanks

 

[Rella]

(((Requirement of this site)))

Nicene Creed!

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made; one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried. The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church. We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and to life in the world to come. Amen.

When was that written?

 

[Runningman]

are we the eternal offspring? Are we eternal?

Anyone who is God's offspring has a beginning point (not eternal)

 

[Runningman]

Wait a minute.... what is this Godhead mentioned in Acts 17:29

You cannot have a Godhead... You mean like the head of a corporation or the head of a country? What is this "Godhead"

It's singular and refers to the Deity which would be the Father. Only the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth while Jesus was never called that.

Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Acts 17
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

 

[donadams]

Who was his eternal mother... unless modeling clay was used he was not begotten (Alternative definition withstanding)


I never said he was made... I said the son was begotten 2400+years ago. As to the Word... we were never told beans about him other then Genesis and the first time I remember reading in depth about a Son was Matthew 1 and forward. The mortal man... was the Son God the Father was proud of... before that what did he ever say about the Word



Yeppers... The word spoke creattion into being during genesis.... that was our beginning... no foul there


Therefore there was no eternal son... begotten or not

Is christ eternal?

 

[donadams]

Who was his eternal mother... unless modeling clay was used he was not begotten (Alternative definition withstanding)


I never said he was made... I said the son was begotten 2400+years ago. As to the Word... we were never told beans about him other then Genesis and the first time I remember reading in depth about a Son was Matthew 1 and forward. The mortal man... was the Son God the Father was proud of... before that what did he ever say about the Word



Yeppers... The word spoke creattion into being during genesis.... that was our beginning... no foul there


Therefore there was no eternal son... begotten or not

Is jesus the word?

 

[donadams]

Who was his eternal mother... unless modeling clay was used he was not begotten (Alternative definition withstanding)


I never said he was made... I said the son was begotten 2400+years ago. As to the Word... we were never told beans about him other then Genesis and the first time I remember reading in depth about a Son was Matthew 1 and forward. The mortal man... was the Son God the Father was proud of... before that what did he ever say about the Word



Yeppers... The word spoke creattion into being during genesis.... that was our beginning... no foul there


Therefore there was no eternal son... begotten or not

Did the father become man or descend in the form of a dove?

 

[donadams]

When was that written?

The requirement or the creed?

 

[donadams]

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings, there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself.He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation; he descended to hell; he arose from the dead; he ascended to heaven; he is seated at the Father's right hand; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will arise bodily and give an accounting of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts!

 

[donadams]

Dogma / De Fide or “thee faith” (found 31 times in the New Testament) eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truths revealed by Christ, taught by His apostolic church! (Matt 28:19)
(The rule of faith)

The faith that binds all Christians! Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

Christ and His church are one and teach one truth faith! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 / Jn 8:12 - Matt 5:14
Matt 17:5 - acts 3:22 Matt 18:18
Truth: Jn 14:6 - 1 Tim 3:15

Most people who oppose catholic dogma actually believe about 90%

3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.

13. The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God.
14. God possesses an infinite power of cognition.
15. God is absolute Veracity.
16. God is absolutely faithful.
17. God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others.
18. God is absolute Moral Goodness or Holiness.
19. God is absolute Benignity.
20. God is absolutely immutable.
21. God is eternal.
*Psalm 90: 2 …even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
*Deut. 33:27 the eternal God is thy refuge…
22. God is immense or absolutely immeasurable.
23. God is everywhere present in created space.
24. God’s knowledge is infinite.
25. God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia
simplicis intelligentiae).
26. God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis).
27. By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational
creatures with infallible certainty.
28. God’s Divine will is infinite.
29. God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on
the other hand, with freedom.
30. God is almighty.
31. God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth.
32. God is infinitely just.
33. God is infinitely merciful.
34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
35. In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
36. The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
37. The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
38. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
39. The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
40. The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
42. All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
*Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
43. All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.
44. God was moved by His Goodness to create the world.
45. The world was created for the Glorification of God.
46. The Three Divine Persons are one single, common Principle of the Creation.
47. God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity.
48. God has created a good world.
49. The world had a beginning in time.
50. God alone created the World.
51. God keeps all created things in existence.
52. God through His providence protects and guides all that He has created.

 

[donadams]

Anyone who is God's offspring has a beginning point (not eternal)

Then how can there be an eternal father with no eternal offspring?