D
donadams
Guest
Only God is eternal!
Binyawmene
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I know you are just making a self-declaration and bare assertion that "Jesus is God is debunked" in a prideful manner. Maybe that's your way of reinforcing yourself or indoctrinating yourself. The fact is, if Jesus Christ is God was debunked, that would change the whole Christendom's Christological position, and that hasn't happened for about 2,000 years or less. You and I are not qualified. You're just some random internet poster that likes hanging out in CCAM or other apologetics platforms. Besides, based upon the testimony of Peter, Paul, and John. 2 Corinthians 13:1 "...Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” Refutes you.
Let's say a Unitarian looked up in the New Testament of every Scriptures that says, "Jesus Christ," in order to find out who he is, then that Unitarian make a final conclusion that "Jesus Christ is man only". Or, maybe the Unitarian leaves the door open to the possibility that "Jesus Christ could be God too" according to the Bible. If that is the case, the first thing to do is encourage that Unitarian by re-examine further. What does the rest of the Scriptures have to say on the topic? As a Hypostatic Unionist, we believe that Jesus Christ is both God and Man simultaneously when Scriptures is taken as a whole. So what does a Unitarian do with the other Scriptures that teaches Jesus Christ is God? I predict (a self-fulfilling prophecy) that some Unitarians will restrict and isolate a verse or entire book, even isolate "Man from God" (Jesus Christ is man negates him being God) or "God from Man" (God is not a man negates Jesus Christ being God) by the whole Scriptures. Or do they ignore them, deny them, or try arguing for a different interpretation.
Here is the phrase in Greek and analysis: τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (2 Peter 1:1), and also, τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ (Titus 2:13). According to the Granville Sharp’s rule, "When you have two nouns that are not proper names, which the two nouns are describing a subject, while the nouns is connected by the conjunction "and" so the first noun has the article "the" and the second noun does not, both nouns are referring to the same subject."
1 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV).
a). The two nouns θεοῦ (God) σωτῆρος (Savior)
b). The subject Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) Χριστοῦ (Christ)
c). The conjunction καὶ (and)
d). The first noun has a article τοῦ (the) θεοῦ (God)
e). The second noun has no article σωτῆρος (Savior)
f). That means "both nouns are referring to the same subject" Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) Χριστοῦ (Christ)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Savior."
b). The subject Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) Χριστοῦ (Christ)
c). The conjunction καὶ (and)
d). The first noun has a article τοῦ (the) θεοῦ (God)
e). The second noun has no article σωτῆρος (Savior)
f). That means "both nouns are referring to the same subject" Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) Χριστοῦ (Christ)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Savior."
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (NIV).
a). The two nouns θεοῦ (God) Σωτῆρος (Savior)
b). The subject Χριστοῦ (Christ) Ἰησοῦ (Jesus)
c). The conjunction καὶ (and)
d). The first noun has a article τοῦ (the) θεοῦ (God)
e). The second noun has no article Σωτῆρος (Savior)
f). That means "both nouns are referring to the same subject" Χριστοῦ (Christ) Ἰησοῦ (Jesus)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Savior."
b). The subject Χριστοῦ (Christ) Ἰησοῦ (Jesus)
c). The conjunction καὶ (and)
d). The first noun has a article τοῦ (the) θεοῦ (God)
e). The second noun has no article Σωτῆρος (Savior)
f). That means "both nouns are referring to the same subject" Χριστοῦ (Christ) Ἰησοῦ (Jesus)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Savior."
Here is the phrase in Greek and analysis: Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς Θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος (1 John 5:20). According to the general rule on pronouns is that it modifies and refers to what is nearest or the last subject mentioned which is the immediate antecedent.
1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
a). The subject Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Jesus Christ)
b). The pronoun οὗτός (He)
c). The first conjunct ἀληθινὸς Θεὸς (true God)
d). The conjunction καὶ (and)
e). The second conjunct ζωὴ αἰώνιος (life eternal)
f). That means "the last subject mentioned which is the immediate antecedent" Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Jesus Christ)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal."
b). The pronoun οὗτός (He)
c). The first conjunct ἀληθινὸς Θεὸς (true God)
d). The conjunction καὶ (and)
e). The second conjunct ζωὴ αἰώνιος (life eternal)
f). That means "the last subject mentioned which is the immediate antecedent" Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ (Jesus Christ)
g). Therefore, "Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal."
Here is a logical analytical critique and assessment: A logical conjunction is consisting of two statements joined by the connective "and" (a truth-functional operator ^) to form a compound sentence. While the two statements flanking each other are called conjuncts. Now the word "both" is a predeterminer and always preceding the conjunction, in this particular case the conjunction is an "and," while the coordinating conjunction connects words, phrases, or sentences together called a compound sentence.
The Logical Conjunction rules, states: "The whole conjunction G ^ S is true, that's if both conjuncts are true, otherwise, the whole conjunction is automatically false".
a). The whole conjunction G ^ S is true, only if both G is true and S is true.
b). The whole conjunction G ^ S is False, only if G is true and S is false.
c). The whole conjunction G ^ S is False, only if G is false and S is true.
d). The whole conjunction G ^ S is false, only if both G is false and S is false.
b). The whole conjunction G ^ S is False, only if G is true and S is false.
c). The whole conjunction G ^ S is False, only if G is false and S is true.
d). The whole conjunction G ^ S is false, only if both G is false and S is false.
Conjunction Introduction (^I): G, S |- G ^ S also G, E |- G ^ E
1 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is God.
Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Savior.
Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.
Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Savior.
Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.
Also 1 John 5:20
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is God.
Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Eternal.
Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal.
Proposition B. Jesus Christ is Eternal.
Proposition C. Therefore, Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal.
Conjunction Elimination (^E): G ^ S |- G and G ^ S |- S also G ^ E |- G and G ^ E |- E
1 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.
And
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is both God and Savior.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Savior.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Savior.
Also 1 John 5:20
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is God.
And
Proposition A. Jesus Christ is both God and Eternal.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Eternal.
Proposition B. Therefore, Jesus Christ is Eternal.
Let CCAM record show any Unitarian's denial.
You have been rejecting Jesus' word, period.
You are refusing to accept Jesus' word.
All your lengthy posts will not justify your rejection of His Lordship.
Binyawmene
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None of that is true and I'm not interested in a bickering match. Just a red herring which is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important question. Let me know when you have something of substances to offer that backs up your bare assertion "Jesus is God is debunked." Your claim and your burden of proof.
Here is the proof of your rejection of Jesus' word and His Lordship.
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I a returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.""
Binyawmene
Sophomore
- Joined
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- Reaction score
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- Reformed Christian. Trinitarian/Hypostatic Unionist.
- Country
- USA
Straw man and an epic evasion. The readers can see your evasion very clearly. You are trying to switch the topic instead of dealing with your asserted claim and that is a bad witness of your Unitarianism. And just for the record of CCAM, Jesus Christ's God is what the Hypostatic Union literally teaches of his manhood. The doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ is both God and man. So, at that particular time era, when the Son walked the earth, there was no other God, then the Father. After all, the prayers of Jesus Christ is always in reference to a single person, the Father and not to the Trinity. This is in alignment to the Jewish laws, customs, and beliefs for the purpose and redemption of mankind. The Jewish people wouldn't know about the progressive revelation about God being triune or the Deity of Christ. They were clueless about the Son and the Holy Spirit.
But that's the common theme of Unitarianism, And they commonly ask: How can Jesus Christ "be God" (Matthew 1:16, John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8) and "have a God" (Matthew 27:46, John 20:17, Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, 17, 1 Peter 1:3) at the same time and in the same sense? Then claim there is a contradiction G ^ ~G or God and not-God. Well, scriptures don't contradict each other but rather harmonize, Jesus Christ is both God and Man. And the Scriptural framework is not teaching that Jesus Christ "being God" and "having a God" in the same sense. Rather, the standpoint of Jesus Christ 'has a God (called the Father) is according to the Human Nature as Man' and not at the standpoint of 'having a God' while 'being God' according to the Divine Nature'.
Now the readers will watch you try to address my post and continue on with your evasion of your asserted claim.
You are the ones who have been evading the point of Jesus' being the Son of God. Not God the Son.
I know you have all the support of your mysterious and corrupt doctrines from triune god believers.
D
donadams
Guest
Dogma’s, decree’s, & creeds!
255 catholic Dogmas or thee faith revealed by Christ! Jude 1:3
The Christian faith revealed by Christ and taught by holy mother church binding all Christians to true faith. Matt 16:19 and 18:18
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye (apostles) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Dogma:
255 Short & concise statements of the Christian faith.
The apostolic authority is in unity with Christ.
Jn 15:5 apart from me you (apostles) can do nothing.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…
Jn 8:32 And ye (apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
The holy apostolic church invokes the Holy Ghost!
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Decree’s of apostolic councils!
Binding the faith of all Christians.
Four authentic creeds of the Christian church:
Apostles creed:
Nicene creed:
Athanasius creed:
Chalcedon creed:
Faith / doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42
1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Jn 8:32 And ye (the apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (the Apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Then they must teach us! Matt 28:19
34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
35. In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
36. The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
37. The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
38. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
39. The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
40. The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
42. All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
*Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
255 catholic Dogmas or thee faith revealed by Christ! Jude 1:3
The Christian faith revealed by Christ and taught by holy mother church binding all Christians to true faith. Matt 16:19 and 18:18
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou (Peter) shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:18
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye (apostles) shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Dogma:
255 Short & concise statements of the Christian faith.
The apostolic authority is in unity with Christ.
Jn 15:5 apart from me you (apostles) can do nothing.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ…
Jn 8:32 And ye (apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
The holy apostolic church invokes the Holy Ghost!
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Decree’s of apostolic councils!
Binding the faith of all Christians.
Four authentic creeds of the Christian church:
Apostles creed:
Nicene creed:
Athanasius creed:
Chalcedon creed:
Faith / doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42
1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Jn 8:32 And ye (the apostles) shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you (the Apostles) into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Then they must teach us! Matt 28:19
34. In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three
Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence.
35. In God there are two Internal Divine Processions.
36. The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and in the passive sense).
37. The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and therefore is related to Him as Son to a Father.
38. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a Single Spiration.
39. The Holy Ghost does not proceed through generation but through spiration.
40. The Relations in God are really identical with the Divine Nature.
41. The Three Divine Persons are in One Another.
42. All the ad extra Activities of God are common to all Three Persons.
*Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
3. God’s Nature is incomprehensible to men.
D
donadams
Guest
Acts 17: 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Also Jn 10:10 & 14:6 life
Only God can be this!
Paul is speaking of Jesus, Jesus is God!
Vs 18 he preached unto them Jesus,
Psalm 103:20 Bless the Lord, ye his angels,
Matt 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
His (Jesus) angels!
Jesus is God!
Lord is my shepherd psalm 23
Jesus is the Good shepherd the Lord!
The father is Lord!
Jesus is Lord!
The spirit is Lord!
But there are not three Lord’s but only one Lord! Deut. 6:4
Jesus is God!
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Also Jn 10:10 & 14:6 life
Only God can be this!
Paul is speaking of Jesus, Jesus is God!
Vs 18 he preached unto them Jesus,
Psalm 103:20 Bless the Lord, ye his angels,
Matt 24: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
His (Jesus) angels!
Jesus is God!
Lord is my shepherd psalm 23
Jesus is the Good shepherd the Lord!
The father is Lord!
Jesus is Lord!
The spirit is Lord!
But there are not three Lord’s but only one Lord! Deut. 6:4
Jesus is God!
D
donadams
Guest
This stench of errors that attack Christ’s divinity and the most holy trinity are of the sects, the “tradition of men” having no authority from God or Christ to exist or attract followers or to spew their filthy errors!
Most heresies according to the fathers are originated by the Jews as attacks on the person of our beloved savior, no doubt these too have that same bitter root!
These sects by existing and teaching are violating the demands of scripture:
“All Christians are to be of one mind, one heart, one spirit”!
Acts 2:46
Romans 12:16
Romans 15:6
2 cor 13:11
Eph 4:1
Phil 1:27
Phil 2:2
1 Peter 3:8
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Jn 10:16 …there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Most heresies according to the fathers are originated by the Jews as attacks on the person of our beloved savior, no doubt these too have that same bitter root!
These sects by existing and teaching are violating the demands of scripture:
“All Christians are to be of one mind, one heart, one spirit”!
Acts 2:46
Romans 12:16
Romans 15:6
2 cor 13:11
Eph 4:1
Phil 1:27
Phil 2:2
1 Peter 3:8
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Jn 10:16 …there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
D
donadams
Guest
Never ending verses show Christ is God!
The Lord my salvation!
Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Jesus Christ our salvation Lk 2:30)
The Lord my salvation!
Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Jesus Christ our salvation Lk 2:30)
D
donadams
Guest
Your reading is so out of context with Jesus' word. Tore the umpteen times he is His word:
John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.""
D
donadams
Guest
That’s supposed to trip up trinitarians?
1st Fathers and sons have the same nature.
2nd he was speaking from his human nature.
Now try answer any of the hundreds I set you especially can’t wait to see you get around the authority part!
You have been dancing around with tons of verses to justify your man-made false god.
I don't play your game.
M
Mr GLee
Guest
Eternal as in devine?
Not according to your sacred law of dying mankind it informs the dying church is Divine
80 "Sacred Tradition (of dying mankind) and Sacred Scripture (living God) , then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same .. divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."
Whose same goal ?Peter, Mary or almighty devine God ? Which one good sacred teaching master today? The legion?
M
Mr GLee
Guest
The authority sola scriptura??? or does the oral traditions of dying mankind rise up above all things writen in the law and prophets?
which one good teaching master as our unseen Lord ? I heard it through the dying fathers grape vine? Or the living word that dwells in all born again from above .
God is supernatural without nature a beginning without end of spirit life He has no mother or father without genealogy or descent .The Son of man has a nature and is subject to salvation .
Eternal God is not temporal dying man. Rather than eternal Spirit as the one Father of all spirits the breath of His life
D
donadams
Guest
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glorywhich I had with thee before the world was.
Only God existed before the world!
Phil 2: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
How can a mere man be equal with God?
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