Mock Debate as an example of the Rules

[ReverendRV]

The Moderator, Pro and Con; have read the Rules...

Is Romans 3:12 evidence for Total Depravity?

Romans 3:12 NIV; All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Pro ~ "There is no one who does Good, not even One". This statement is a Double Imperative. Double Imperatives are meant to reinforce the importance of the statement. The declaration we're to pay double attention to is, 'There is no one who does Good"...

 

[ReverendRV]

Is Romans 3:12 evidence for Total Depravity?

Romans 3:12 NIV; All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Pro ~ "There is no one who does Good, not even One". This statement is a Double Imperative. Double Imperatives are meant to reinforce the importance of the statement. The declaration here we're to pay extra attention to is, 'There is no one who does Good"...

Con ~ This is true. What's your question?

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ This is true. What's your question?

Pro ~ Was that an example of Total Depravity?

 

[ReverendRV]

Was that an example of Total Depravity?

Con ~ No, people do Good all the time; they are Do-Gooders...

 

[ReverendRV]

Moderator ~ First, agree on the definition of Total Depravity; then proceed...

 

[CrowCross]

Lurking.

 

[ReverendRV]

Pro ~ Total Depravity doesn't mean we are as bad as we can be, IE Utter Depravity. Total Depravity means all facets of our Being are Fallen, which is because of our Native Depravity and due to the Curse of Original Sin. This means we're Totally Unable to do anything God accepts as Good, though we call it good. Total Inability and Native Depravity are what we call Total Depravity...

 

[ReverendRV]

Pro ~ Total Depravity doesn't mean we are as bad as we can be, IE Utter Depravity. Total Depravity means all facets of our Being are Fallen, which is because of our Native Depravity and due to the Curse of Original Sin. This means we're Total Unable to do anything God accepts as Good, though we call it good. Total Inability and Native Depravity are what we call Total Depravity...

Con ~ Though I disagree this is true, I agree this is Total Depravity...

According to the Rules, it's my turn...

In the Verse, what does "good" mean?

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ Though I disagree this is true, I agree this is Total Depravity...

According to the Rules, it's my turn...

In the Verse, what does "good" mean?

PRO ~ In the Verse, Good means something Morally excellent that's Useful...

Believing the Gospel, is something Morally excellent we do; but it's not Useful since no one does Good...

 

[ReverendRV]

PRO ~ IN THE Verse, Good means something Morally excellent that's Useful...

Believing the Gospel is something Morally excellent we do; but it's not Useful since no one does Good...

Moderator ~ Please avoid giving examples of your definition at this moment...

 

[ReverendRV]

PRO ~ IN THE Verse, Good means something Morally excellent that's Useful...

Believing the Gospel is something Morally excellent we do; but it's not Useful since no one does Good...

Con ~ Are you saying no one can do the Good of believing the Gospel??

 

[Josheb]

Con ~ No, people do Good all the time; they are Do-Gooders...

Pro - 1) doing good and being good are not synonymous, 2) the "good" in verse 12 has specified contexts, at least one of which is found in Psalm 53 (from which Paul took his statement), and 3) people do not do good all the time. They do not even do good most of the time. Even on the occasion when a specific act may appear moral or benefit another it is an act performed by sinful flesh. It's like finding money dropped from a prostitute's purse and buying lunch for a homeless person knowing the prostitute will get beaten for not being able to pay her pimp. This is one of the reasons God can say even a person's righteous act is filthy rags.

More germanely to the text specified in the op, verse Romans 3:12 is simply one sentence in a much larger narrative in which Paul leaves no room for so called "do-gooders" to do good. That narrative covers six chapters (Romans 3-8) and in those six chapters many verses explain and add to verse 3:12, so the op should not be construed to say ONLY those 19 words serve as a proof text (proof-texting rarely results in a proof text). The op simply asks if it is "evidence," not proof. When the verse is considered in the context of all that Paul brings to bear on it in the rest of his narrative it is evidence of Total Depravity.


Total Depravity (def): The inability of a sinner to come to God specifically for salvation in his or her own might in the sinful unregenerate state.


If ALL have become worthless, then (using the con argument in Post #4) nothing they have is of worth. Nothing is capable of meriting an ability to come to God for salvation from the worthless requiring salvation.


(hope i didn't step on your toes. i'm gonna call it a night but i'll check back tomorrow. happy to switch with you and take the "con" role if you like)

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ Are you saying no one can do the Good of believing the Gospel??

Moderator ~ Please accept or deny the definition of Good that Pro gave you...

 

[ReverendRV]

Moderator ~ Please accept or deny the definition of Good that Pro gave you...

Con ~ I accept that according to the Verse, good is something morally excellent we do that's Useful...

My turn again. Don't people do things that are Morally good on a regular basis?

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ I accept that according to the Verse, good is something morally excellent we do that's Useful...

My turn again. Don't people do things that are Morally good on a regular basis?

Pro ~ People do things that are Morally good, but the goodness Falls Short of the Glory of God; the good can never be %100 Good. So in this sense, no one does Good, not even One...

 

[ReverendRV]

Pro ~ People do things that are Morally good, but the goodness Falls Short of the Glory of God; the good can never be %100 Good. So in this sense, no one does Good, not even One...

Con ~ According to the Verse, no one does Good...

But there must be an exception. Isn't believing Gospel an exception to the Verse?

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ According to the Verse, no one does Good...

But there must be an exception. Isn't the Gospel an exception to the Verse?

Pro ~ No, especially in the light of the Verse being a Double Imperative; and since Romans three is Saint Paul's conclusion of how bad our Sinfulness is. Romans 3:12 is a Fundamental which other Verses must honor...

Biblically Speaking, a thing is established by two or three Witnesses. If you change the question from one to two Verses, the answer certainly is Yes. But since we're talking about the Bible, one Scripture is pretty good to establish a God's honest Truth. One Biblical Truth is never washed away by 99 other Biblical Truths. In Argumentation, a Negative never trumps a Positive. For instance, Romans 3:12 by itself positively tells us no one does Good. As a matter of fact, in the Verse it is a Double Imperative; "No not One". Since Romans 3:12 is a Double Imperative, can we count it as two; and establish it? Verses which say we do good, can't rid the world of Romans 3:12...

If you are hoping to eliminate a Doctrine you don't care for, by winning the contest through a majority of Verses; this is the Logical Fallacy of Appealing to the Majority. Sure; if you want to believe the Majority, go ahead. Just don't throw the One out with the bath water; especially since two Verses can establish the one Doctrine...

If you are hoping to establish the Bible to Atheists; Yes, 99 established Truths trump one speculative truth. The quality of the truth needs to be of the upmost, or it's not true at all. You'll need to establish the Bible is True; and no Atheist can ever deny it...

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ Administrator, Pro has said too much and is getting off Topic; please help...

 

[ReverendRV]

Con ~ Pro, you've given me food for thought. I'll return before the Deadline...

 

[ReverendRV]

Pro ~ Thank you Con. Forgive me for being too Verbose...