Lutheran Mass Is Still Idolatry

[ChristB4us]

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for sins but they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus keeping them idols still in that regard.

 

[Munro]

Lutheran Mass Is Still Idolatry​

Really?

Are there any Lutherans here?

What might they say to that?

 

[Ladodgers6]

1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for sins but they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus keeping them idols still in that regard.

I love Luther, He was the first Reformers I learned Justification by Faith Alone! His commentaries on Romans & Galatians are a must read!

 

[ChristB4us]

I love Luther, He was the first Reformers I learned Justification by Faith Alone! His commentaries on Romans & Galatians are a must read!

As much as Luther reproved the dead works of Catholicism in that wise, he was not done reforming everything that is a work of iniquity created by the RCC.

 

[Ladodgers6]

As much as Luther reproved the dead works of Catholicism in that wise, he was not done reforming everything that is a work of iniquity created by the RCC.

Okay?

 

[Ladodgers6]

As much as Luther reproved the dead works of Catholicism in that wise, he was not done reforming everything that is a work of iniquity created by the RCC.

It was Luther who challenged the RCC, correct? He is spot on with Justification by Faith Alone! Which is the Crux of the Gospel.

 

[ChristB4us]

It was Luther who challenged the RCC, correct? He is spot on with Justification by Faith Alone! Which is the Crux of the Gospel.

Okay then; asking for clarification & confirmation;

Do Lutheran service called a Mass?

HOW IS LUTHERAN MASS DIFFERENT FROM CATHOLIC MASS?

A Lutheran service is not called a mass.

Quoted from that link above; is that true?

Another link "wikipedia" testify that Lutheran call it a Divine Service instead. Do you confirm?

Also from that link;

Catholics believe that when they take communion, they are eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus Christ. For this reason, only Catholics are allowed to take communion. Lutherans believe that while Christ is present in the sacrament of communion, He is not physically present in the bread and wine.

This is where I do not believe Luther was done reforming the works of Catholicism if he believes Christ is present in the sacrament of communion which said sacrament is the bread and the wine even though Luther believed He is not physically present in the bread and the wine.

Not sure what the difference is here. Just looks like rewording the same meaning.

I believe to reprove the works of Catholicism and to abstain from all appearances of evil, Eucharist should be dropped, the "holy" of communion should be dropped, and dropping the belief that He is present in the sacrament of communion when He dwells in us since salvation for why there is no receiving Him again, not even in communion.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

We are supposed to do communion only in remembrance of Him in proclaiming the Lord's death until He comes. That is all He commanded us to do. It is not about receiving Him at communion by receiving the sacraments of communion or anything of the sort.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Okay then; asking for clarification & confirmation;

Do Lutheran service called a Mass?

HOW IS LUTHERAN MASS DIFFERENT FROM CATHOLIC MASS?

Quoted from that link above; is that true?

Another link "wikipedia" testify that Lutheran call it a Divine Service instead. Do you confirm?

Also from that link;

This is where I do not believe Luther was done reforming the works of Catholicism if he believes Christ is present in the sacrament of communion which said sacrament is the bread and the wine even though Luther believed He is not physically present in the bread and the wine.

Not sure what the difference is here. Just looks like rewording the same meaning.

I believe to reprove the works of Catholicism and to abstain from all appearances of evil, Eucharist should be dropped, the "holy" of communion should be dropped, and dropping the belief that He is present in the sacrament of communion when He dwells in us since salvation for why there is no receiving Him again, not even in communion.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

We are supposed to do communion only in remembrance of Him in proclaiming the Lord's death until He comes. That is all He commanded us to do. It is not about receiving Him at communion by receiving the sacraments of communion or anything of the sort.

I asked about Justification by Faith Alone by Luther. Was he off or spot on? For the record a lot of the Reformers differed by communion, right?

 

[ChristB4us]

I asked about Justification by Faith Alone by Luther. Was he off or spot on?

If justification by faith alone, then why cling to any works of Catholicism that were created to testify otherwise?

For the record a lot of the Reformers differed by communion, right?

There is a sticking point where even Presbyterian believe in Christ's Presence being in the bread and the wine, thus a variation of that dead works from Catholicism

This explains why my former Covenant Presbyterian Church begins communion service with "We come into His Presence today..." and for why Catholics are attending the church, because they still see the church believing as they do but just not for receiving the atonement at Mass.

Is this not idolatry still? Has not Jesus ascended into Heaven?

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

By believing His Presence is in the "sacraments", believers are still sinning against God and are at risk of being left behind.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Communion is not how we enter into His Presence at any time when He is in us and with us always as our God is in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So Luther nor the Protestants are done reforming from everything that is Catholicism.

Thank you for sharing in this discussion.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Martin Luther and the Doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone​

(Part One)​

In his definitive work on the Doctrine of Justification, James Buchanan once rightly and uncompromisingly stated that ‘the revival of the gospel doctrine of justification was the chief means of effecting the Reformation of religion in Europe in the sixteenth century.’

John Calvin, the great theologian of the Reformation and a contemporary of Martin Luther’s refers to the doctrine of Justification in his famous ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion’ as the ‘main hinge on which religion turns.’

Similarly the Puritan, Thomas Watson in his well-known and much blessed work, ‘A Body of Doctrine’ says that
​

Justification is the very hinge and pillar of Christianity. An error about justification is dangerous, like a defect in a foundation. Justification by Christ is a spring of the water of life. To have the poison of corrupt doctrine cast into this spring is damnable.​

He goes on to note that it was a saying of Luther, that after his death the doctrine of justification would be corrupted. ‘In these latter times, the Arminians and Socinians have cast a dead fly into this precious ointment.’ Watson was rightly recognizing not only the centrality of the doctrine but also the church’s indebtedness to Luther, the great trailblazer of the Reformation, who by God’s grace was responsible for first heralding those glad tidings of great joy after literally centuries of darkness and despair had eclipsed and obscured this foundational truth.

Justification by faith alone in Christ alone is the priceless jewel that Luther through the illumination of the Holy Spirit came to fully comprehend and apprehend in the Word of God. Consequently, he could dispense with the vast heap of religious ceremonies and rituals, good works and devotions that testified and continue to testify to fallen man’s ingenuity in manufacturing rituals, rules and regulations in an altogether fruitless and hopeless quest to merit salvation.

Luther, like the prophet Isaiah, came to understand that “we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isa. 64:6). He could say along with the apostle Paul, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom 7:18, 24).

God declares that “There is none righteous, no, not one”. He teaches us that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and that the wages of sin is death. Luther came to truly grasp that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of sinners, for there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.

As he was to astutely remind those privileged hearers of his celebrated ‘Table Talks’, ‘Adam received the promise of the woman’s seed before he had done any work or sacrifice, to the end God’s truth might stand fast – namely, that we are justified before God altogether without works, and obtain forgiveness of sins merely by grace.’ Only the imputed righteousness of the One who knew no sin and was obedient unto death – even that accursed death of the cross, could propitiate God the Father and make atonement for the sins of all those who are called and equipped to place their faith and trust firmly and squarely in Him. The believer, in other words, as the apostle Paul assures us in his Letter to the Ephesians, is accepted only in the Beloved. When God the Father looks down upon His adopted children He sees the reflected glory of Christ in their persons because they are clothed in His perfect righteousness.

Luther came to recognize that a correct understanding and acceptance of the teaching of Scripture on this subject is absolutely vital to the spiritual well being of Christ’s church here in the world. He was to unambiguously state that justification by faith, ‘is the head and the cornerstone. It alone begets, nourishes, builds, preserves, and defends the church of God; and without it the church of God cannot exist for one hour. For no one who does not hold this article – or, to use Paul’s expression, this ‘sound doctrine’ (Titus 2:1) – is able to teach aright in the church or successfully to resist any adversary – this is the heel of the Seed that opposes the old serpent and crushes its head. That is why Satan, in turn, cannot but persecute it.’

On another occasion he was equally adamant that ‘whoever departs from the article of justification does not know God and is an idolater – for when this article has been taken away, nothing remains but error, hypocrisy, godlessness, and idolatry, although it may seem to be the height of truth, worship of God, holiness, etc.’

Luther was surely correct in his conviction that in order to proclaim the Gospel it is crucial that we fully understand and believe what the Scripture teaches concerning justification.

He warned the church in his day that ‘All heretics have continually failed in this one point, that they do not rightly understand or know the article of justification. If we had not this article certain and clear, it were impossible we could criticize the pope’s false doctrine of indulgences and other abominable errors, much less be able to overcome greater spiritual errors and vexations.

He further humbly notes, in the introduction to his commentary on Galatians, ‘Yet I am compelled to forget my shame and be quite shameless in view of the horrible profanation and abomination which have always raged in the Church of God, and still rages today, against this, one solid rock which we call the doctrine of justification. I mean the doctrine that we are redeemed from sin, death and the devil, and made partakers of eternal life, not by ourselves (and certainly not by our works, which are less than ourselves), but by the works of another, the only-begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ.’

Before we briefly examine Luther’s definition of justification, let us consider how he came to discover this priceless truth and note the extent to which the professing church in his day had deviated from it. Roland Bainton begins his popular biography of Luther in the following dramatic way.​

He writes: ‘On a sultry day in July of the year 1505 a lonely traveller was trudging over a parched road on the outskirts of the Saxon village of Stotternheim. He was a young man, short but sturdy, and wore the dress of a university student. As he approached the village, the sky became overcast. Suddenly there was a shower, then a crashing storm. A bolt of lightning rived the gloom and knocked the man to the ground. Struggling to rise, he cried in terror, ‘St Anne help me! I will become a monk.’
The man who thus called upon a saint was later to repudiate the cult of the saints. He who vowed to become a monk was later to renounce monasticism. A loyal son of the (Roman) Catholic Church he was later to shatter the structure of medieval Catholicism. A devoted servant of the pope, he was later to identify the popes with Antichrist. For this young man was Martin Luther.’​

To be continued...​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Martin Luther and the Doctrine of Justification by Faith Alone​

(Part Two)

Luther’s upbringing, education and vocation were typical of many clergy of his day and age. He was born on 10 November 1483 into a relatively poor but nevertheless pious German family. His parents raised him in the nurture and admonition of the Lord but his faith was largely distinguished by a vast array of superstitious beliefs and practices that found acceptance and commendation in the visible church of his day. It was for this very reason that he cried out to St Anne, the so-called patron saint of miners, which was his father’s profession, when he thought his life was threatened and when in fear and ignorance he vowed to become a monk.​

Up until that time there is nothing to suggest that Luther had contemplated renouncing life, as we are called to live it in the world, for the unbiblical asceticism and rigorous rounds of religious observances and works that were characteristic – at least in theory, of the monastic vocation. He attended a school at Magdeburg run by the Brethren of the Common Life as a boy and had matriculated at the University of Erfurt in 1501 with a view to studying Law on the recommendation of his father, Hans.

Nevertheless Luther was a conscientious monk, true to his monastic vows and meticulous in keeping the due ceremonial observances of his order, erroneously but sincerely believing that this was the sure path to reconciliation with God and eternal life. Reflecting on his monastic experience he later noted, ‘I was a good monk and kept my order so strictly that I could claim that if ever a monk were able to reach heaven by monkish discipline I should have found my way there. All my fellows in the house, who knew me, would bear me out on this. For if it had continued much longer I would, what with vigils, prayers, readings and other such works, have done myself to death.’

Nevertheless in spite of his incessant labours, confessions and penance’s he found no peace with God. He says, ‘The more I tried to remedy an uncertain, weak and afflicted conscience with the traditions of men, the more each day I found it uncertain, weaker, the more troubled.’ His notion that man had to earn his salvation through meritorious works was all but universal and was rigorously reinforced inside the confines of the institutional church.

It was particularly emphasized on his entry into the monastic life. Had Luther known the Bible’s teaching on justification that salvation is all of grace then he would have understood the futility and barrenness of such beliefs and practices. As the apostle so forcefully reminds us in his Letter to the Galatians: “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ” (Gal. 2:16).

While we should appreciate that Luther’s involvement in the famous Indulgence controversy helped focus and crystallize his thought on the vital question of how one’s sins are forgiven, we must appreciate that it was in the God-breathed Word alone that he grasped the solution to man’s greatest and most basic need – which is to be reconciled to God – to be declared just before an infinitely holy and just God.

Luther was without question first and foremost a student and devotee of Scripture. He taught biblical theology at Wittenberg and it was his lectures on the Psalms, 1513-14; Romans in 1515-16; Galatians, 1516-17 and Hebrews in 1517-18 that truly bore fruit through the germination in his mind of this foundational doctrine that Justification is by faith alone without the works of the Law.

He came to truly grasp this priceless jewel through the illumination of the Spirit who shed His light on God’s Word at Romans 1:17. “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith”. Later reflecting on that wonderful awakening when the light of the gospel cast away all doubt, despair, darkness and frustration, he wrote,​

I greatly longed to understand Paul’s Epistle to the Romans and nothing stood in the way but that one expression, ‘the justice of God’, because I took it to mean that justice whereby God is just and deals justly in punishing the unjust. My situation was that, although an impeccable monk, I stood before God as a sinner troubled in conscience, and I had no confidence that my merit would assuage him. Therefore I did not love a just and angry God, but rather hated and murmured against him. Yet I clung to the dear Paul and had a great yearning to know what he meant. Night and day I pondered until I saw the connection between the justice of God and the statement that the ‘just shall live by faith’. Then I grasped that the justice of God is that righteousness by which through grace and sheer mercy God justifies us through faith. Thereupon I felt myself to be reborn and to have gone through open doors into paradise. The whole of Scripture took on a new meaning and whereas before the ‘justice of God’ had filled me with hate, now it became to me inexpressibly sweet in greater love. This passage of Paul became to me a gate to heaven. ​

​

He went on to add, ‘If you have a true faith that Christ is your Saviour, then at once you have a gracious God, for faith leads you in and opens up God’s heart and will, that you should see pure grace and overflowing love. This it is to behold God in faith that you should look upon his Fatherly, friendly heart, in which there is no anger nor ungraciousness. He who sees God as angry does not see him rightly but looks only on a curtain, as if a dark cloud had been drawn across his face.’​

Luther renounced his own righteousness recognizing it was but filthy rags in God’s sight, and through faith found himself robed in the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ alone and assured of eternal life in the Beloved.

Luther once pertinently said that ‘the Roman Catholics and Anabaptists are today agreed on this one point against the Church of God (even if their words disguise it), namely, that the work of God depends on the worthiness of the person.’ Sadly there are many today – even professing evangelicals, who share these ill-conceived notions. They wrongly take the view that justification is not by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to guilty sinners but instead that it is by infusion of grace which enables the believer to earn his own salvation through doing good works. This is not the gospel but instead it is its antithesis. Moreover we must take heed and duly recognize that this false teaching of infusion was the grave error and poison that paved the way for sacerdotalism, sacramentalism and many other forms of idolatry and superstition.

How are you and I to judge in these matters? How can we be sure that Luther and his Reformed contemporaries and successors were/are correct on this vital issue of a sinner’s justification? Surely we must go to the bar of Scripture which can be the only true authority in all matters of faith and practice.​

God says that believers are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”Romans 3:24-28​

Ephesians 2:8-9 similarly assures us: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Do we believe in the Word of the sovereign God, the omnipotent and omniscient One, the One who is all-wise and perfect in all His ways? Or are we to trust in the manifold inventions and machinations of fallen man? Let us declare, along with the apostle: let God be true and every man a liar!

Augustus Toplady once memorably and accurately stated that ‘Christ’s sheep do not contribute any part of their wool to their own clothing. They wear, and are justified by, the fine linen of Christ’s obedience only.’ We too must hold firmly to this doctrine and boldly proclaim it come what may. It alone can give comfort, peace and rest to our souls. Let me conclude by quoting the poignant words of the 18th century English Baptist pastor, J. C. Ryland, who once said that ‘Justification by Christ’s imputed righteousness is the centre arch of the bridge by which we pass out of time into blissful eternity.’ May each of us say amen to that!​

 

[Ladodgers6]

If justification by faith alone, then why cling to any works of Catholicism that were created to testify otherwise?



There is a sticking point where even Presbyterian believe in Christ's Presence being in the bread and the wine, thus a variation of that dead works from Catholicism

This explains why my former Covenant Presbyterian Church begins communion service with "We come into His Presence today..." and for why Catholics are attending the church, because they still see the church believing as they do but just not for receiving the atonement at Mass.

Is this not idolatry still? Has not Jesus ascended into Heaven?

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

By believing His Presence is in the "sacraments", believers are still sinning against God and are at risk of being left behind.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Communion is not how we enter into His Presence at any time when He is in us and with us always as our God is in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So Luther nor the Protestants are done reforming from everything that is Catholicism.

Thank you for sharing in this discussion.

Before I answer your questions. Can you explain for me Luther's Justification by Faith Alone?

 

[ChristB4us]

Before I answer your questions. Can you explain for me Luther's Justification by Faith Alone?

I can only assume Luther is referring to this;

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I cannot cite the source for his stance from his writings, if that is what you want.

But as it is, a believer can be double-minded about something, saying something or doing something contrary to the faith they hold.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I can only assume Luther is referring to this;

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I cannot cite the source for his stance from his writings, if that is what you want.

But as it is, a believer can be double-minded about something, saying something or doing something contrary to the faith they hold.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

 

[ChristB4us]

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

I take it this is the scriptural source for Luther's statement rather than Ephesians 2:8.9?

If so, thank you for sharing.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I take it this is the scriptural source for Luther's statement rather than Ephesians 2:8.9?

If so, thank you for sharing.

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

I am providing more Scripture that's all.

I am still waiting for you to answer my question. Can you explain Luther's Justification by Faith Alone?​

 

[ChristB4us]

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works

Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

I am providing more Scripture that's all.​

Thanks.

I am still waiting for you to answer my question. Can you explain Luther's Justification by Faith Alone?​

No. I cannot recall Luther's Justification by Faith Alone. I cannot quote him specifically in explaining.

Feel free to do so since you are Lutheran.

 

[Ladodgers6]

No. I cannot recall Luther's Justification by Faith Alone. I cannot quote him specifically in explaining.

Then how can you make a sound argument?

Feel free to do so since you are Lutheran.

Do your homework. I read everything I can get my hands on. I suggest you do the same thing. Because getting familiar with all sides of the debate is very beneficial, don't you think so?

I read from all the Reformers, even Arminius himself. I use to be a Arminian, then became a convinced Classical Calvinist. For the record I love Luther. My recommendation is read his Tract on, "The Freedom of a Christian." Maybe a 7min read.

Here's the link: https://journal.rts.edu/article/luther-in-1520-justification-by-faith-alone/

As I am doing my homework on the Lutheran Mass, Luther himself denied it was propitiatory but Eucharistic Sacrifice or in order that we may give thanks or return gratitude for the remission of sins that has been received, or for other benefits received.

The proximate species of sacrifice are two, and there are no more. One is the propitiatory sacrifice, i.e., a work which makes satisfaction for guilt and punishment, i.e., one that reconciles God, or appeases God's wrath, or which merits the remission of sins for others. The other species is the eucharistic sacrifice, which does not merit the remission of sins or reconciliation, but is rendered by those who have been reconciled, in order that we may give thanks or return gratitude for the remission of sins that has been received, or for other benefits received. (XXIV §19)

I am still researching it further.​

 

[ChristB4us]

Then how can you make a sound argument?

I believe that how Lutherans treat communion is still an offense to God by believing His Presence is in the bread and the wine; thus committing idolatry. Luther may believe justification by faith alone but what we build on that foundation will be judged. Any works on that foundation that denies Him, is how and why He will deny them. One does not need to verbally deny Him, but by doing works of iniquity, they are denying Him.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The Presbyterians are guilty of this iniquity as well. Communion service is NOT how we come into His Presence when He is in us and with us always.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Reprobate as in disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven, unless they repent of that iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Those unrepentant saints left behind are still saved but missed out on the wedding reception with the Bridegroom. This truth can be seen for how former believers that would deny Him verbally for why He would deny them and yet He still abides in them because He is faithful.

This is why we are to called even former believers and Christians that are workers of iniquity to go to Jesus for help to see the offense or the lies that turned them away from him to lean on Him for help to repent from so as to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House which is that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So what happens when a saved believer does not depart from iniquity? They run the risk of being left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This is why Jesus is warning 5 of the 7 churches to repent and exhorting 2 of the 7 churches to hold fast or else. He acknowledges them as His and thus saved but not every saved believer will be found abiding in him for when the Bridegroom comes. Jesus will excommunicate those found in iniquity and thus left behind to die by that fire coming on the earth, & the remainder by the beast.

What God commanded the church to do metaphorically being the results on those excommunicated, it will be literal when God does it.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Marriage Supper has to be held in sincerity and in truth for why Lutherans need to continue reforming how they do communion.

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

That is how we are to hold communion in the fellowship of the church and so that is how the Marriage Supper will be held in Heaven.

 

[ChristB4us]

Do your homework. I read everything I can get my hands on. I suggest you do the same thing. Because getting familiar with all sides of the debate is very beneficial, don't you think so?

Well, I am not addressing everything Lutheran but specifically how they do communion service as it still contains words and sayings originating from Catholicism that Lutherans should wish to stand apart from for Catholics to see their faith in Jesus Christ as being in us.

In the UK, the Lutheran churches made an apology for leaving the Catholic Church for failing to see why they had left and thus the reasons why similar wordings and practices have been carried over by Luther that he should not have carried over that sounds like the Catholic Church. Even Catholics visited the Presbyterian church for how they start communion with "We come into His Presence today..."

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

So regardless of Luther's justification without works, there are works of iniquity that was carried over from Catholicism that should be dropped so as to remove off of that foundation laid by Jesus Christ ( salvation ) all the works that denies Him & thus defile the temple of God.

I read from all the Reformers, even Arminius himself. I use to be a Arminian, then became a convinced Classical Calvinist. For the record I love Luther. My recommendation is read his Tract on, "The Freedom of a Christian." Maybe a 7min read.

Here's the link: https://journal.rts.edu/article/luther-in-1520-justification-by-faith-alone/

Thanks for the offer and the link.

As I am doing my homework on the Lutheran Mass, Luther himself denied it was propitiatory but Eucharistic Sacrifice or in order that we may give thanks or return gratitude for the remission of sins that has been received, or for other benefits received.

The proximate species of sacrifice are two, and there are no more. One is the propitiatory sacrifice, i.e., a work which makes satisfaction for guilt and punishment, i.e., one that reconciles God, or appeases God's wrath, or which merits the remission of sins for others. The other species is the eucharistic sacrifice, which does not merit the remission of sins or reconciliation, but is rendered by those who have been reconciled, in order that we may give thanks or return gratitude for the remission of sins that has been received, or for other benefits received. (XXIV §19)

I am still researching it further.​

Since there is no more sacrifice for sins and so therefore, there is no more receiving any type of sacrifice outwardly if we wish to abstain from all appearances of evil. Do communion for what Jesus said to do it for; in remembrance of Him. If He wanted us to do it for any other more important reason, He would have led with that rather than just doing it in remembrance of Him.

We are proclaiming the Lord's death when we take communion; not His dying. We are remembering what He has done in having bought us.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Psalm 115:1Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. 2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

By making communion more for what it is and thus a "holy" communion, how can any church avoid the appearance of idolatry when they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine or just being whenever they hold communion service, thus eating & drinking in His Presence when He is in us and with us always as we await His return from above as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ?

The time to issue the call for reformation and repentance is now. May God cause the increase.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Thank you for sharing and participating in this discussion.