LET ME TELL YOU WHERE I'M COMING FROM

[Mr GLee]

What did Christ say? What did St. Paul say in 1Cor 10 and 11?

It says the same thing Peter said confirming the temple of dying flesh of the Son of man profits for zero.. .nothing. What did profit was God pouring out His Holy Spirit in jeopardy of his own Spirit Life. Peter said to whom we can go you have the words of the Holy Father words of eternal life not words false prophecy of dying flesh and blood called a law of the fathers (legion)


John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.(In heaven not a Holy father on earth ) From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter (our brother in the Lord) answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

1 Corinthians calls them spiritual drink and spiritual meat. (Spiritual unseen eternal)

1 Corinthians 10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual (unseen eternal) meat And did all drink the same spiritual (unseen eternal) drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ . . . . (Not Peter our brother in the lord the serial deniers )





1 Corinthians 10

King James Version Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

 

[Arch Stanton]

Accidents ? It accidently came out as draught?

Yes, the accidents of the host remain, therefore, no cannibalism

 

[Arch Stanton]

It says the same thing Peter said

this is what St. Paul said....

1 Cor 11 - Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord UNWORTHILY will have to answer for the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks JUDGMENT on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

does not look symbolic to me.... dying, unworthily, etc

 

[Arch Stanton]

1 Corinthians 10

King James Version Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

1 Cor 10:16-17 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the BLOOD of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the BODY of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

 

[Mr GLee]

1 Cor 10:16-17 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the BLOOD of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the BODY of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

A literal participant in cannibalism no.


Spiritual using literal blood to represent the Holy Spirit yes.

The blood of Jesus has not been stored somewhere for the last 2000 years. Remember the life of the flesh is in the blood but that life is spiritual unseen life.

The living kind life that wiggles and make you giggle around.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Mr GLee]

this is what St. Paul said....

1 Cor 11 - Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord UNWORTHILY will have to answer for the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks JUDGMENT on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.

does not look symbolic to me.... dying, unworthily, etc

If you refuse to mix the unseen things of God, the eternal with what the eyes see the temporal. How could you see past ones nose ? Spiritual unseen eternal things?

Yes, we eat spiritually like Jesus the kind of food the disciples knew not of. The power of the Holy Father's daily bread, to both hear the will and empowers the son of man to do it . No power comes from the imaginary queen mother of heaven.

yes, dying unworthy is dead never to rise. His death was worthy. The fulness of grace the whole cost of salvation

Can you image some teach that only a Queen mother of heaven received the full amount of grace required for salvation while the rest of the world received a unknown remnant of Grace and even after taking their last breath of Oxygen they must condition the Unkown work of suffering wondering, suffering wondering with no end of salvation in sight , Same venerable ones that lord it over the faith of the non-venerable pew warmers saying this queen mother even visits protestants in the limbo lower ,How low can it go?

Does purgatory have a bottom?

 

[Arch Stanton]

If you refuse to mix the unseen things of God, the eternal with what the eyes see the temporal. How could you see past ones nose ? Spiritual unseen eternal things?

Why not take Christ at His word....

Mt 26: 26-28 [The Lord’s Supper] While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

Does purgatory have a bottom?

The elevator only goes up from purgatory.

 

[Mr GLee]

Mt 26: 26-28 [The Lord’s Supper] While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

We do take him at his word .he says literal food the enters our mouth comes out as dung it cannot enter our new born again souls. It must be buried outside the camp.

Catholics simply must follow another teaching master according to thier master (oral traditions of dying mankind )Other the God's living word the Bible trying to seduce other to believe thier is no difference between the living abiding word of God (sola scriptura )than of the tradition of dying fathers. No man can serve two good teaching master coming from one God .

Catholicism fake final authority in matters of faith (the unseen things of God ) rather seeking a legion of dead fathers

One common source. . .Sacred traditons first and foremost

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

Matthew 15:16-18King James Version16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

What is the spiritual understanding of "drink blood" I offered a commentary on it found in 2 Samuel. Explain the water turned into blood

Same understanding turning water into the blood of grapes call wine Christ pouring out His Holy Spirit in jeopardy of His own
Spirit life . He give us little of the that faith as power to rise .Calling us . . ye of little faith. Peter said increase it.

He is the storeroom the golden measure of faith

He used three throughout the Bible to denote the end of a matter. Three apostles to show the power of one working in them pouring out his labor of love on dying flesh .(the gospel)

Why did David not drink the blood ? Where did the blood go when he poured it out ?

2 Samuel 23:16-18King James Version16 And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord.And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.

 

[Arch Stanton]

We do take him at his word .he says literal food

That is not what the text says.... Here is Mark -

Mark 14:22-24 [The Lord’s Supper] While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.

Catholics simply must follow another teaching master

Indeed! We are the earliest Christians, not a man-made ecclesial community started in the sixteenth century. Are you a follower of Zwingli, Calvin, Luther?

One common source. . .Sacred traditons first and foremost

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

Tradition came before the written NT.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

“Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” (Lev. 26:1).​

Protestants and Catholics have done just that! Catholics have not only set up “consecrated stones” in the form of church structures, but they have made idols and images and bow down to them. Protestants, on the other hand, have set up their elaborate edifices and crosses and view them as sanctuaries and revered designs. Oh, there may be a few exceptions, but the rule seems to be universal. There’s an old maxim, “Our heart is where our money is.”

If we will but consider the hundreds of thousands of dollars—yea, even millions—that are spent on church structures, designs, religious inventions, and edifices, and compare that amount to the few dollars we spend on seeking and saving the lost and feeding the genuinely poor, we don’t need a professor to locate our hearts. If this isn’t idolatry, I’ve lost my ability to reason.

We fail to see that God no longer “lives in temples built by [human] hands” (Acts 17:24). His only sanctuary today is the believer’s heart (1 Cor. 3:16). But try telling this to the average pew-warmer. He views his church edifice and its “sanctuary” as holy places, and feels that he must go there in order to worship and make contact with his God. However, his “sanctuary” is no holier than the building’s toilets.

The water Catholics dip their fingers into upon leaving their “sanctuary” is no holier than toilet water—maybe cleaner, but not holier. All of this translates into idolatry, whether practiced by Protestants or Catholics. How in heaven’s name did we ever get this way? Most of the blame may be placed upon the shoulders of the professional clergy. They devise and invent and create and lead and we blindly follow. Are we no longer capable of thinking independently? Where have all the freethinkers gone? Why have we succumbed to being robots?

Men seem to learn but little from history. Moved with pride, swept with unreasoning fears, in every generation there are those who spend their time and money to erect the same idols and to perpetuate the same errors of their sectarian forefathers. There has never been a human idol erected that did not betray God’s trust and eventually bring disaster to its erectors and their idolatrous followers.​

 

[Arch Stanton]

“Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved [consecrated] stone in your land to bow down before it” (Lev. 26:1).​

Ex 25:18-22 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the cover; make one cherub at one end, and the other at the other end, of one piece with the cover, at each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, sheltering the cover with them; they shall face each other, with their faces looking toward the cover. This cover you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the covenant which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the cover, between the two cherubim on the ark of the covenant, I will tell you all that I command you regarding the Israelites.

Ex 37:7-9 Two cherubim of beaten gold were made for the two ends of the cover; one cherub was at one end, the other at the other end, made of one piece with the cover, at each end. The cherubim had their wings spread out above, sheltering the cover. They faced each other, with their faces looking toward the cover.

Numbers 21:8-9 and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover. Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered.

Protestants and Catholics have done just that! Catholics have not only set up “consecrated stones” in the form of church structures, but they have made idols and images and bow down to them.

We bow in reverence to Christ in the Eucharist!

The water Catholics dip their fingers into upon leaving their “sanctuary” is no holier than toilet water—maybe cleaner, but not holier.

Like asking a Dr. if he/she sees the soul of his/her patient.

All of this translates into idolatry, whether practiced by Protestants or Catholics.

All it really translates into is the personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture..... a mini-pope

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Ex 25:18-22 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the cover; make one cherub at one end, and the other at the other end, of one piece with the cover, at each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, sheltering the cover with them; they shall face each other, with their faces looking toward the cover. This cover you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the covenant which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the cover, between the two cherubim on the ark of the covenant, I will tell you all that I command you regarding the Israelites.

Ex 37:7-9 Two cherubim of beaten gold were made for the two ends of the cover; one cherub was at one end, the other at the other end, made of one piece with the cover, at each end. The cherubim had their wings spread out above, sheltering the cover. They faced each other, with their faces looking toward the cover.

Numbers 21:8-9 and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover. Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered.

We bow in reverence to Christ in the Eucharist!

Like asking a Dr. if he/she sees the soul of his/her patient.

All it really translates into is the personal, fallible, interpretations of scripture..... a mini-pope

Arch: If the scriptures you submitted above justifies idolatry, then you have a God who contradicted Himself. Listen up.

The Worship Of Images And Popes​

The Roman Catholic clergy and their followers will tell you they do not bow down and pray to and worship images, statues, and idols. But according to Catholic history, they do.​

• An image bowed its head to St. John Gaulbert while he kneeled and prayed before it (Butler’s Lives of the Saints, p. 247). Yet Catholics deny they bow before and pray to images, statues, and idols.​
  
  
• Catholics deny worshipping the pope. Their own history testifies against them. Kissing of the pope’s foot was done as early as the eighth century and was done as an “act of reverence by which all the faithful do honor him as the Vicar of Christ” (Catholic Ency., Vol. XII, p 270).​

A religious “act of reverence” is the same as an act of worship. Yet Peter, who is alleged by Catholics to have been the first pope, refused to allow Cornelius to bow down to and worship him. He told Cornelius who bowed before him, “Stand up! I am only a man myself” (Acts 10:25-26). The Catholic Bible says, “Stand up! I’m not a god!” Catholic Popes, then, must consider themselves God, as they expect others to bow to them.

Every pope in history has expected others to bow down to them, including Pope John Paul II—the exact opposite of what the apostle Peter told Cornelius. Catholics and their clerics dishonor the very Bible they claim to have written by rebelling against its teachings. They do the same by bowing to and worshipping images, statues, and idols. Based on this information, Catholicism resembles paganism more than it does Christianity. But here’s more:​

• There were no statues in Catholic meeting structures prior to 325 A. D. “To avoid even the appearance of idolatry, no statues were placed in the early churches” (Short History of the Catholic Church, p. 65). This translates into the truth that idolatry is prevalent in Catholic Churches today, for statues and images abound.
  
  ​
• “Though the veneration of images was a gradual growth in the Church—owing to the prevalence of heathen idolatry and the caution required to prevent their use from being misunderstood by the pagans—sculptured memorials of the Blessed Mary are found as early as the third century” (Practical Preaching for Priest and People, pgs. 89-90).​

“Veneration”? Isn’t that the same as “worship”? According to my dictionary, “veneration” is worship. Yet Catholics say they don’t worship images and statues. Their Catholic clerics disagree with them. But if this isn’t enough, they need to get a Catholic Encyclopedia and turn to Vol. VII, p. 667, which reads:

“The whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed.” Again, this was printed with the imprimatur (Latin for “let it be printed”) of Catholic authorities.​

What Does God Say?​

At this point, we need to ask: What does God say on the subject of erecting images and idols? I think you will find the answer to this question interesting. “Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind. The statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington, D.C. is not the subject. Nor the statue of Devil Ance Hatfield, clan leader in the Hatfield-McCoy feud—in the Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky and West Virginia. Nor the image of Caesar on Roman coins, which Jesus spoke about 2,000 years ago (Matt. 22:15-22).

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious purposes, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

I would ask my Catholic friends: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. So do many Protestants.​

 

[Arch Stanton]

Arch: If the scriptures you submitted above justifies idolatry, then you have a God who contradicted Himself. Listen up.

The Worship Of Images And Popes​

The Roman Catholic clergy and their followers will tell you they do not bow down and pray to and worship images, statues, and idols. But according to Catholic history, they do.​

• An image bowed its head to St. John Gaulbert while he kneeled and prayed before it (Butler’s Lives of the Saints, p. 247). Yet Catholics deny they bow before and pray to images, statues, and idols.​
  
  
• Catholics deny worshipping the pope. Their own history testifies against them. Kissing of the pope’s foot was done as early as the eighth century and was done as an “act of reverence by which all the faithful do honor him as the Vicar of Christ” (Catholic Ency., Vol. XII, p 270).​

A religious “act of reverence” is the same as an act of worship. Yet Peter, who is alleged by Catholics to have been the first pope, refused to allow Cornelius to bow down to and worship him. He told Cornelius who bowed before him, “Stand up! I am only a man myself” (Acts 10:25-26). The Catholic Bible says, “Stand up! I’m not a god!” Catholic Popes, then, must consider themselves God, as they expect others to bow to them.

Every pope in history has expected others to bow down to them, including Pope John Paul II—the exact opposite of what the apostle Peter told Cornelius. Catholics and their clerics dishonor the very Bible they claim to have written by rebelling against its teachings. They do the same by bowing to and worshipping images, statues, and idols. Based on this information, Catholicism resembles paganism more than it does Christianity. But here’s more:​

• There were no statues in Catholic meeting structures prior to 325 A. D. “To avoid even the appearance of idolatry, no statues were placed in the early churches” (Short History of the Catholic Church, p. 65). This translates into the truth that idolatry is prevalent in Catholic Churches today, for statues and images abound.
  
  ​
• “Though the veneration of images was a gradual growth in the Church—owing to the prevalence of heathen idolatry and the caution required to prevent their use from being misunderstood by the pagans—sculptured memorials of the Blessed Mary are found as early as the third century” (Practical Preaching for Priest and People, pgs. 89-90).​

“Veneration”? Isn’t that the same as “worship”? According to my dictionary, “veneration” is worship. Yet Catholics say they don’t worship images and statues. Their Catholic clerics disagree with them. But if this isn’t enough, they need to get a Catholic Encyclopedia and turn to Vol. VII, p. 667, which reads:

“The whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed.” Again, this was printed with the imprimatur (Latin for “let it be printed”) of Catholic authorities.​

What Does God Say?​

At this point, we need to ask: What does God say on the subject of erecting images and idols? I think you will find the answer to this question interesting. “Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).

Common sense informs us that God is not talking about images and statues and sculptures of a political, historical, and social kind. The statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington, D.C. is not the subject. Nor the statue of Devil Ance Hatfield, clan leader in the Hatfield-McCoy feud—in the Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky and West Virginia. Nor the image of Caesar on Roman coins, which Jesus spoke about 2,000 years ago (Matt. 22:15-22).

God is speaking of the images and statues and idols that are fashioned for religious purposes! When statues or idols of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles or anyone else are made for religious purposes, spiritual corruption and idolatry are the results. So says the God of creation. Within the confines of Catholicism, and occasionally Protestantism, are found all of the above—plus more. If this is not idolatry, I’ve lost my senses. “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (Gen.20:5).

I would ask my Catholic friends: What part of this don’t you understand? Even the Catholic Bible has God condemning images, statues, and idols that are made for religious purposes. Yet Catholics violate the same scriptures they claim to support. So do many Protestants.​

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible. [CA]

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible. [CA]

It might interest Arch Stanton and others that one of the most crushing blows against Catholicism’s claim that Peter was the first pope is that Peter never once made such a claim. He wrote two of the Bible’s letters, I Peter and II Peter, but in neither does he identify himself as pope, pontiff, bishop, “Holy Father,” or “Bishop of Rome.” Instead, he introduces himself as an apostle and servant, the same titles and level of function as the other apostles.

Additionally, in Acts 2, on the birthday of the Christian community, where Peter is recorded to have spoken extensively about the risen Lord, not once does he refer to himself as pope or “Head of the Church.” I find this rather baffling, for all popes, since the office was formed in about the third or fourth century, have identified themselves as pope or pontiff in all of their documents.

At this juncture, we must inquire: Why did Peter fail to interject himself as pope? The answer is obvious. He was neither pope nor “Head of the Church.”

But here is another matter all Catholics should seriously consider. The wise men who were led by God’s star to see the child Jesus “bowed down and worshipped Him” (Matthew 2:10-12). If God intended that Mary be venerated, why didn’t the wise men bow down and worship them instead of only Him? Why was Mary not bowed down to? Even the Catholic Bible has the wise men bowing down to Jesus only. Either the biblical testimony is wrong and the Catholic Hierarchy is right, or the Catholic Hierarchy is wrong and the biblical evidence is right. It cannot be both ways.

Too, nowhere in scripture are we able to find one example of Mary, or even an image of Mary, being bowed down to and/or venerated. This cultic practice was invented centuries later by the Roman Catholic Hierarchy, not by God. It is of the earth, not of heaven.

Here is what we find from the Archives of Catholicism: During the week of August 3, 2003, The CBS Evening News reported that a document from the archives of the “Holy See” had surfaced, formulated in 1962 by a high-ranking Catholic Cardinal, which directs all Bishops to conceal and keep secret all sex acts between Catholic clerics and the children they sexually abuse, plus sex acts between the clergy and brute animals.

In my research, I have found the Vatican and her ecclesiastics vexed with all forms of spiritual and moral corruption. Even Satan must blush when he sees what goes on behind the secretive doors of the papacy. Below are a few of many facts relating to the “Holy See” of Roman Catholicism.

The data you are about to read will not be found in newspapers or spread across everyone’s TV screen. Even the Fox News channel, as newsworthy as they are, will not air the information which follows, for their news organization appears to be Catholic oriented—very much like The Des Moines (Iowa) Register and other avenues of communication that provide the public with news.​

• Pope John XXIII was worldly-minded, crafty, unscrupulous, and immoral (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 434).​
• Pope Innocent VIII had seven or eight illegitimate sons by different women. He sold Catholic offices to the highest bidders (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, pgs. 19-20).​
• Pope Alexander VI is called the worst pope. He had eight illegitimate children by different women. Four of his children were brought to Rome with him when he became pope (Catholic Ency., Vol., VI, p. 213).​
• Pope Sergius was father of Pope John XI by Morozia, one of the worst women in history. He declared as valid the fourth marriage of Leo VI, Greek Emperor (Catholic Ency., Vol. XIII, p. 729).​
• Pope John X was made Archbishop when he was five years of age (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 425).​
• Pope John XI, son of Pope Sergius III, was made pope by his mother at twenty years of age (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 426 & De Montor, Vol. I, p. 247).​
• Pope John XVII had three sons (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 429).​
• Pope John XII is described as “a coarse, immoral man.” He was stricken with paralysis while committing adultery (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 426).​
• Pope Benedict IX was the nephew of two preceding popes and one succeeding one, and was made pope at 12 years of age. “He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter” (Catholic Ency., Vol. IV, p. 17, and Vol. II, p. 429).​
• Pope Julius II was wicked and had three illegitimate daughters and bribed the Cardinals for the office (Catholic Ency., Vol. VIII, p. 562).​

Numerous other popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and priests were wicked and immoral. History testifies to this fact. Yet these same men claimed to be successors of Peter and representatives of God. Instead, they were disciples of evil who practiced and promoted moral and spiritual corruption. Even in our generation, newscasts are informing us about homosexual and pedophile priests and bishops and their molestation and cover up of little boys.​

 

[Arch Stanton]

It might interest Arch Stanton and others that one of the most crushing blows against Catholicism’s claim that Peter was the first pope is that Peter never once made such a claim.​

Why would he need to claim something the other apostles already knew? Christ taught humility.

Lk 22:24-27 Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest. He [Christ] said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves.

He wrote two of the Bible’s letters, I Peter and II Peter, but in neither does he identify himself as pope,​

You do know that Christians were being persecuted, correct? Do you think the leader of Christ's Church would let the Romans know where he was?

Additionally, in Acts 2, on the birthday of the Christian community, where Peter is recorded to have spoken extensively about the risen Lord, not once does he refer to himself as pope or “Head of the Church.” I find this rather baffling,​

Not baffling at all [see above]

keys to Peter only; changed name to rock; Peter made his rounds to the 'church throughout' in Acts 9:31-32; shepherd my sheep; strengthen your brothers; Peter states that another should take Judas' bishopric; Peter stood with the eleven and proclaimed that Israelites should repent and be baptized; etc.

Even the Holy Spirit gave Matthew the words to call Peter 'first'.

At this juncture, we must inquire: Why did Peter fail to interject himself as pope?​

He didn't need to give himself a name.... Christ already changed his name to rock.

Too, nowhere in scripture are we able to find​

You are starting with a false presupposition. The bible is not a manual. Nowhere in the bible do we learn that all things have to be in the bible.

In my research, I have found the Vatican and her ecclesiastics vexed with all forms of spiritual and moral corruption. ...​

2,000 years Buff, 2,000

Did you think infallibility equaled impeccability?

Peter denied
Paul persecuted
Thomas doubted
Judas betrayed

That was Christ's inner circle-- HANDPICKED!!!

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Why would he need to claim something the other apostles already knew? Christ taught humility.

Lk 22:24-27 Then an argument broke out among them about which of them should be regarded as the greatest. He [Christ] said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as ‘Benefactors’; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves.

You do know that Christians were being persecuted, correct? Do you think the leader of Christ's Church would let the Romans know where he was?

Not baffling at all [see above]

keys to Peter only; changed name to rock; Peter made his rounds to the 'church throughout' in Acts 9:31-32; shepherd my sheep; strengthen your brothers; Peter states that another should take Judas' bishopric; Peter stood with the eleven and proclaimed that Israelites should repent and be baptized; etc.

Even the Holy Spirit gave Matthew the words to call Peter 'first'.

He didn't need to give himself a name.... Christ already changed his name to rock.

You are starting with a false presupposition. The bible is not a manual. Nowhere in the bible do we learn that all things have to be in the bible.

2,000 years Buff, 2,000

Did you think infallibility equaled impeccability?

Peter denied
Paul persecuted
Thomas doubted
Judas betrayed

That was Christ's inner circle-- HANDPICKED!!!

Arch, I highly recommend that you check out your Catholic Ency. - Note the above historical testimony.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Arch, I highly recommend that you check out your Catholic Ency. - Note the above historical testimony.

? would the impeccability of a Catholic change the fact that Christ established one Church?

 

[3 Resurrections]

keys to Peter only; changed name to rock; Peter made his rounds to the 'church throughout' in Acts 9:31-32; shepherd my sheep; strengthen your brothers; Peter states that another should take Judas' bishopric; Peter stood with the eleven and proclaimed that Israelites should repent and be baptized; etc.

Last time I checked, to support the walls of the New Jerusalem, there were no less than twelve foundations - not just one - composed of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb along with Christ the "chief cornerstone" (Revelation 21:14)

 

[Arch Stanton]

Last time I checked, to support the walls of the New Jerusalem, there were no less than twelve foundations - not just one - composed of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb along with Christ the "chief cornerstone" (Revelation 21:14)

Indeed! But on earth, Christ established His hierarchical Church with one leader.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But on earth, Christ established His hierarchical Church with one leader.

That New Jerusalem has already come down from heaven to earth long ago. In fact, Hebrews 12:22 wrote that the saints had already come to Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

The one hierarchical leader of the church which God is continuing to grow is Christ Jesus, the "head over all things to the church". (Ephesians 1:22-23).