Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Arial]

Y'all are blowin' my mind! I know nuttin' --- LOL! That's okay. I may learn something after all.

We all know nuttin compared to what there is to know. And what we have come to know, whatever that is, we at one time did not know, and most of us have been looking and learning a very long time. I have learned many new terms on especially this forum. And I had my own understanding of things but not within the definitions of the words that encapsulated the teaching.

 

[atpollard]

I never studied it before. Now I want to know.

Mind if I take a shot at dumbing down what smarter people than me have already said.

Predestination is the idea that what people call "fate" (heaven or hell) is already decided before you and I were born. Technically a very long time before we were born. Single Predestination believes that God only decides who will go to heaven and who goes to hell is .... well, they ignore that. Single Predestination fails for "logic" reasons that are not really the point of this discussion [If not God, then who decides?]

"DOUBLE" in Double Predestination recognizes that if there is "predestination", then BOTH heaven and hell are decided. Double Predestination comes in TWO basic flavors:

1. GOD CHOOSES BOTH: sometimes called "Active-active" or "Positive-positive". The idea is simple. God picks some people to go to heaven and some people to go to hell. God is responsible for EVERYTHING because he is GOD. It goes with the job.

2. GOD CHOOSES ONE AND ALLOWS THE OTHER: sometimes called "Active-passive" or "Positive-negative". The idea is less simple. God actively chooses some ... God DOES SOMETHING to make sure that some people end up in heaven. For the rest, God simply chooses not to save them. God is not responsible for their going to hell, they are. God is merely "guilty" of allowing it to happen. You can sort of see this illustrated in the second part of Romans 1 where God merely ALLOWS the people to follow their own ever more evil desires.

I hope that helps make it a little clearer.

 

[Whatever]

My question to you is: Do you believe that one who depends on his works for salvation is disqualified in regards to salvation

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets . . .
Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

James 2:18 . . . Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems that Jesus and James are saying it is your fruit or works that show if your saved or not.

I don't know. A lot of JW's and Mormons put most professing Christians to shame in their willingness to sacrifice and produce fruit.
I'm not sure Mother Teresa was saved, but she did a lot of work and sacrificed all her time for others.

 

[Whatever]

In Infra, God uses a Fallen Adam; Adam is the Agent of the Fall

I can't imagine how supra's can have a fall without Adam's first sin.

 

[Whatever]

In Infra, God uses a Fallen Adam; Adam is the Agent of the Fall, then God Predestines and Passes Over...

But Adam's fall and those He passes over were still predestined before they actually existed.

I always thought that the difference between the two was just God's logical thinking about the decrees - which one came first, which one was second and so forth. Not how the actual events themselves happen. That would seem to fall under Providence.

 

[ReverendRV]

But Adam's fall and those He passes over were still predestined before they actually existed.

I always thought that the difference between the two was just God's logical thinking about the decrees - which one came first, which one was second and so forth. Not how the actual events themselves happen. That would seem to fall under Providence.

Well, at least their difference is Single or Double Predestination; right? But the main difference in God's Mind would be to Predestine from an Unfallen Lump of Clay or a Fallen Lump of Clay. The difference would be the Agent; and what he did, or didn't do to the Clay...

 

[Rescued One]

In Infra, God uses a Fallen Adam; Adam is the Agent of the Fall...

Please explain your label "agent."

 

[ReverendRV]

Please explain your label "agent."

I mean We have Agency, so this is why I used the word Agent. Our Agency in God's Providence, means we are his Agents...

 

[Rescued One]

My question to you is: Do you believe that one who depends on his works for salvation is disqualified in regards to salvation; leastwise, until he changes his mind?

The cult I was in required works. God brought me out, but I had to learn that works weren't necessary to be regenerated. That was a surprise!

 

[Rescued One]

I mean We have Agency, so this is why I used the word Agent. Our Agency in God's Providence, means we are his Agents...

Agency in the cult meant free will. Do you believe we have free will?

 

[ReverendRV]

Agency in the cult meant free will. Do you believe we have free will?

I believe we have %100 Free Will as Secondary Causations. It's like my Freeway and Frontage Road analogy; we're free on the Frontage Road; but the Interstate goes everywhere the Frontage Road goes. Only God is Free to take the; Freeway

 

[Rescued One]

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets . . .
Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

James 2:18 . . . Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems that Jesus and James are saying it is your fruit or works that show if your saved or not.

I don't know. A lot of JW's and Mormons put most professing Christians to shame in their willingness to sacrifice and produce fruit.
I'm not sure Mother Teresa was saved, but she did a lot of work and sacrificed all her time for others.

Certain cults declare you won't get blessings unless you obey. Your salvation depends on obedience. That's not saying works are evidence of salvation.

 

[Rescued One]

I believe we have %100 Free Will as Secondary Causations. It's like my Freeway and Frontage Road analogy; we're free on the Frontage Road; but the Interstate goes everywhere the Frontage Road goes. Only God is Free to take the; Freeway

I hope you're saying that God sets us free from Satan's control.

 

[ReverendRV]

I hope you're saying that God sets us free from Satan's control.

I do say that. I'm Baptist; I'm Okay...

But I also mean we're %100 Free to Will what we want to. I've heard a Wife say, "My Husband is the Head of the Family; but I am the neck, and can turn the Head which way I want". The same goes for Satan; he can turn our Fallen Will in a heartbeat. I don't believe in Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; we are never 'free Free'. But while we are %100 Free to Will what we want, our Fallen Nature, and Others; will always lead us away from God...

This is, "The Bondage of the Free Will"; it's both. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established...

 

[atpollard]

I do say that. I'm Baptist; I'm Okay...

But I also mean we're %100 Free to Will what we want to. I've heard a Wife say, "My Husband is the Head of the Family; but I am the neck, and can turn the Head which way I want". The same goes for Satan; he can turn our Fallen Will in a heartbeat. I don't believe in Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; we are never 'free Free'. But while we are %100 Free to Will what we want, our Fallen Nature, and Others; will always lead us away from God...

This is, "The Bondage of the Free Will"; it's both. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established...

Boy, you people have a knack for making easy things sound hard.

A LION is free to do any Lion-like thing that his Lion heart desires. He is free to act according to his nature.
A LION is not free to be a Hippopotamus and follow his Hippopotamus instincts and act according to his Hippopotamus nature (because he is a LION and not a Hippopotamus).

Same with people. We are free to follow the Fallen Human desires of our heart, until God changes our heart and we gain a new heart with new desires … then we are free to follow any action that new heart desires.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I do say that. I'm Baptist; I'm Okay...

But I also mean we're %100 Free to Will what we want to. I've heard a Wife say, "My Husband is the Head of the Family; but I am the neck, and can turn the Head which way I want". The same goes for Satan; he can turn our Fallen Will in a heartbeat. I don't believe in Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; we are never 'free Free'. But while we are %100 Free to Will what we want, our Fallen Nature, and Others; will always lead us away from God...

This is, "The Bondage of the Free Will"; it's both. The WCF says the Liberty of the Will is established...

I'm not all that... But I thought to point out some of us have a bound Satan.

Now that the NWO has taken affect, (just joking, keeping it light-hearted)

We have a mediator before God in Christ. When Adam fell, the created order turned upside down and left Satan as "accuser of the brethren" in heaven accusing God's people. In the return to the garden so to speak, with a reigning and victorious Christ, Christ is the mediator between men and God.

Satan now kicked out of heaven, while he can tempt us, He has no witness against us before the Throne of God. The witness for or against us is Christ.

And HE promises to forgive us our sins if we but ask.

No more scary Satan has, no power. None. Rendered toothless. All he can do is bite like the neighbors dog, but the second death is all that matters in the end. This is just the path we must travel to get Home, to worship our Lord and Savior.

The already, and the not yet. But the binding of Satan has been since he fell like lightning from heaven. During the lifetime of Jesus still is the way I read it, but certainly and absolutely since the resurrection.

At any rate. Just a thought to add.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm not all that... But I thought to point out some of us have a bound Satan.

Now that the NWO has taken affect, (just joking, keeping it light-hearted)

We have a mediator before God in Christ. When Adam fell, the created order turned upside down and left Satan as "accuser of the brethren" in heaven accusing God's people. In the return to the garden so to speak, with a reigning and victorious Christ, Christ is the mediator between men and God.

Satan now kicked out of heaven, while he can tempt us, He has no witness against us before the Throne of God. The witness for or against us is Christ.

And HE promises to forgive us our sins if we but ask.

No more scary Satan has, no power. None. Rendered toothless. All he can do is bite like the neighbors dog, but the second death is all that matters in the end. This is just the path we must travel to get Home, to worship our Lord and Savior.

The already, and the not yet. But the binding of Satan has been since he fell like lightning from heaven. During the lifetime of Jesus still is the way I read it, but certainly and absolutely since the resurrection.

At any rate. Just a thought to add.

I'm Amillenial, so I get it. When I speak of Satan, I mean it also for demons. To me, it's nothing major. When speaking to Christians who believe Satan is out there, I don't disagree with them. They may be right and I may be wrong. I'm terrible when it comes to Eschatology...

Every once in a while, I think about trying to figure out Eschatology as well as I've figured out Soteriology; but I can't do it. That's why I stay Amill and Partial Preterist; that's less complex than anything else...

 

[ElectedbyHim]

The cult I was in required works. God brought me out, but I had to learn that works weren't necessary to be regenerated. That was a surprise!

Every religion on the planet require works to be saved.

This is not so with Christianity.

Christ did the work for His elect.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm Amillenial, so I get it. When I speak of Satan, I mean it also for demons. To me, it's nothing major. When speaking to Christians who believe Satan is out there, I don't disagree with them. They may be right and I may be wrong. I'm terrible when it comes to Eschatology...

Every once in a while, I think about trying to figure out Eschatology as well as I've figured out Soteriology; but I can't do it. That's why I stay Amill and Partial Preterist; that's less complex than anything else...

The least complex is my husband. He's no use for prophecy whatever. He calls himself a pan-millenialist, as in, it'll all pan out in the end.

He's the perfect counter for my inability to stay out of the old testament prophets... Lol. I love them as much as Paul, I just imagine them as highly amillennial types... Lol.

 

[fastfredy0]

James 2:18 . . . Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems that Jesus and James are saying it is your fruit or works that show if your saved or not.

Agreed.
The crux of my question deals with those those believe their works are a cause of salvation as opposed to an effect of salvation. If someone thinks their works are part of the cause of their salvation, are they saved? (I could list verses that seem to me to probably answer "NO" and a minority of writers agree. A higher percent of reformed writers would agree. That does prove anything though)

I don't know. A lot of JW's and Mormons put most professing Christians to shame in their willingness to sacrifice and produce fruit.
I'm not sure Mother Teresa was saved, but she did a lot of work and sacrificed all her time for others.

Yeah, relative to us I'm sure their works are superior but all works are as 'dirty rags' and we depend of the perfect work of Christ which is vastly superior.