Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[ReverendRV]

The least complex is my husband. He's no use for prophecy whatever. He calls himself a pan-millenialist, as in, it'll all pan out in the end.

He's the perfect counter for my inability to stay out of the old testament prophets... Lol. I love them as much as Paul, I just imagine them as highly amillennial types... Lol.

That's it! That's it! I'm a Panmillenialist. He's a genius!

 

[fastfredy0]

I believe we have %100 Free Will

Define "free will". I know it's the ability to make an unforced choice, but what's the "free" part of the definition? Free from who/what and what circumstances?

 

[fastfredy0]

Same with people. We are free to follow the Fallen Human desires of our heart, until God changes our heart and we gain a new heart with new desires … then we are free to follow any action that new heart desires.

Agreed. It is either Satan or God that controls our desires, we are not free to chose our desires. Our desires are "programmed" by another.
Aside: and Satan's desire are programmed by another.

 

[ReverendRV]

Define "free will". I know it's the ability to make an unforced choice, but what's the "free" part of the definition? Free from who/what and what circumstances?

I mean it the way the WCF means it. The Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Causation. It's not Freedom from a Who or What, it's Freedom to be your Fallen self or your Born Again self...

 

[atpollard]

Define "free will". I know it's the ability to make an unforced choice, but what's the "free" part of the definition? Free from who/what and what circumstances?

Typically, in philosophy, it just means “non-deterministic”. If faced with condition X, you can do action A or B and you choose action A one time, then if again faced with identical condition X, you have the freedom to choose either A or B the second time. No deterministic force compels you to always choose action A under condition X.

 

[fastfredy0]

Typically, in philosophy, it just means “non-deterministic”. If faced with condition X, you can do action A or B and you choose action A one time, then if again faced with identical condition X, you have the freedom to choose either A or B the second time. No deterministic force compels you to always choose action A under condition X.

Unless your desires change you will always make the same choice.
Exception: Maybe your desire was to flip a coin ... or maybe you didn't have any desire for A or B

Augustine: You always chose what you desire most at the time

 

[atpollard]

Unless your desires change you will always make the same choice.
Exception: Maybe your desire was to flip a coin ... or maybe you didn't have any desire for A or B

Augustine: You always chose what you desire most at the time

Hey, I was just giving the definition of Free Will in philosophy.
Setting aside RELIGION, there are secular thinkers that argue that there is no FREE WILL. Every action is the result of an infinite number of prior causes (actions) that made the present choice the only possible choice … even if it seemed like you had the freedom to make another choice.

Take something silly like “eat Cheerios for breakfast”. You purchased Cheerios instead of Raisin Bran, so that action impacted your possible choices. Growing up, your parents fed you one cereal for breakfast which programmed your subconscious choices. What other foods you ate impacted your biological cravings for certain nutrients and foods which impacted your decisions. Avian flu has driven up the cost of eggs removing that preferred alternative from your list of choices. Thus in the end, you believe that you made the FREE WILL CHOICE to have Cheerios for breakfast when that decision was actually PREDETERMINED by invisible prior circumstances and choices.

 

[fastfredy0]

Setting aside RELIGION, there are secular thinkers that argue that there is no FREE WILL. Every action is the result of an infinite number of prior causes (actions) that made the present choice the only possible choice … even if it seemed like you had the freedom to make another choice.

That makes sense.

Take something silly like “eat Cheerios for breakfast”. You purchased Cheerios instead of Raisin Bran, so that action impacted your possible choices. Growing up, your parents fed you one cereal for breakfast which programmed your subconscious choices. What other foods you ate impacted your biological cravings for certain nutrients and foods which impacted your decisions. Avian flu has driven up the cost of eggs removing that preferred alternative from your list of choices. Thus in the end, you believe that you made the FREE WILL CHOICE to have Cheerios for breakfast when that decision was actually PREDETERMINED by invisible prior circumstances and choices.

That sounds about right to me. I see it the same way save God is the First Cause and is at the controls.
My wife is Second Cause.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I mean it the way the WCF means it. The Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Causation. It's not Freedom from a Who or What, it's Freedom to be your Fallen self or your Born Again self...

Freedom within the head you have, not freedom to change who we have over us. But even that freedom is fairly limited, to which choice one might prefer which might really be a choice without the distinction of being an actual choice, but we did follow our desires and therefore, have moral responsibility for our actions.

But yeah... Free.

 

[ReverendRV]

Freedom within the head you have, not freedom to change who we have over us. But even that freedom is fairly limited, to which choice one might prefer which might really be a choice without the distinction of being an actual choice, but we did follow our desires and therefore, have moral responsibility for our actions.

But yeah... Free.

I like the irony of, "The Bondage of the Free Will"...

What is the percentage of the Bondage, and what is the percentage of the Liberty? 50-50? 25-75? 5-95?


Who cares? Any percentage we throw at it, both the Bondage and the Liberty are still there...

 

[fastfredy0]

Setting aside RELIGION, there are secular thinkers that argue that there is no FREE WILL. Every action is the result of an infinite number of prior causes (actions) that made the present choice the only possible choice … even if it seemed like you had the freedom to make another choice.

I think this is called the Law of Causality

 

[QVQ]

I think this is called the Law of Causality

Causality is predictable. Cause becomes an effect. However the effect does not always become a cause.
A baseball that is hit with a bat is determined to go over a certain path at a certain speed to a certain destination but if that destiniation is "lost in the weeds" then the effect, the ball, does not become a cause. Also, the ball does not have any choice of speed, route or destination.
The Sum Over Histories is the model that is accepted as it admits to a selection of choices, although the choices are weighted so there is actually no choice.
https://muchomas.lassp.cornell.edu/8.04/Lecs/lec_FeynmanDiagrams/node3.html

 

[Whatever]

The crux of my question deals with those those believe their works are a cause of salvation

This might not be the same thing, but years ago at work I asked this one person if he was a Christian. He said "yes, I was baptized as a baby."
It seems most Roman Catholics think like this. They can be in the Mafia and killing people and think they are okay as long as they go to confession and say their hail Mary's.

 

[makesends]

God entered time. He is a being, an entity, from both within and without time therefore He can freely interact inside either state.

My dumb thoughts.

In my usual "I'll do you one better" manner, I have to turn this thought to God's terminology (as if I knew how). 'Within' and 'without' time are our words for the concept, but the concept is described by us from within time! I'm wondering if it would be more descriptive to say that both of those are 'within' God, though, granted, as creation it is not God himself, but "of" him --from him, through him and to him.

Lol, anyway, those are "my dumb thoughts".

 

[makesends]

Agreed. It is either Satan or God that controls our desires, we are not free to chose our desires. Our desires are "programmed" by another.
Aside: and Satan's desire are programmed by another.

Yet, seriously, we do choose to prefer one thing over another, all the time! But why we desire to choose to prefer one thing over another..... uh, well....

 

[Hazelelponi]

In my usual "I'll do you one better" manner, I have to turn this thought to God's terminology (as if I knew how). 'Within' and 'without' time are our words for the concept, but the concept is described by us from within time! I'm wondering if it would be more descriptive to say that both of those are 'within' God, though, granted, as creation it is not God himself, but "of" him --from him, through him and to him.

Lol, anyway, those are "my dumb thoughts".

I would say eternity is within God and everything in time is without so God decreed this matter in such a manner and around such covenantal laws so as to [be able, not that He is in anyway unable,] to reconcile the image (saved and sanctified humanity), which is outside (eternity) to Himself (The Eternal) and in doing so, revealed the Everlasting Glory of His nature to all of creation and gathered a peculiar people to Himself made in His image. (Now glorified)

From and to.

Just thinking out loud about your thinking here. Don't you just love rattling around a few thoughts?

Feel free to improve upon, consider.

 

[Rescued One]

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets . . .
Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

James 2:18 . . . Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

It seems that Jesus and James are saying it is your fruit or works that show if your saved or not.

I don't know. A lot of JW's and Mormons put most professing Christians to shame in their willingness to sacrifice and produce fruit.
I'm not sure Mother Teresa was saved, but she did a lot of work and sacrificed all her time for others.

No one has faith unless God gives it to him. God NEVER gives anyone dead faith; that is absurd!

 

[Rescued One]

View attachment 1083

Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.

God did actively create people He predetermined would go to hell. After those people predestined for hell are created God is passive as He need not do more as far as their final destiny is concerned. God remains active (Col. 1:17, Job 4:14-15) in that He ensures people destined for hell continue to live till His set time for their death and their penalty is determined by their activities on earth.

My relatives weren't/aren't murderers.

 

[Rescued One]

That raises another question.
Does God know these things because He looked into the future and found it out?
or
Does God know these things because He has foreordained them to happen.? Like an author writing a novel.

If God knows the future and doesn't save them, He's either helpless or uncaring.

 

[fastfredy0]

If God knows the future and doesn't save them, He's either helpless or uncaring.

God does not love (volition to favor) those He does not save. He cares that His justice is applied to everyone without exception. (Cares: serious attention or consideration applied to doing something correctly or to avoid damage or risk.)

John 6:39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.