Is Christ's Presence IN the Sacraments at Communion?

[Arial]

It is Christ and he commanded it!
It requires a ministerial priesthood also

Where does the Bible say it requires a ministerial priesthood?

 

[Josheb]

I most certainly am....

Post 11

 

[Arial]

10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The Greek word used that is translated "communion" in the Bible you are using is koinonia. According to Strong's Concordance it means fellowship. In it usage: literally partnership (A) contributory help, participation, (b) sharing in, communion, (c) spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the Spirit. Many translations translate it "participation." So it is not eating human flesh or drinking blood---both things prohibited by God---but it is a remembering of our union with Christ through the sacrifice of His body and the shedding of His blood, and our union with one another in Him. It isn't eating and drinking, it is sharing in the blood of Christ.

And that is why it is so important to not make it something it isn't and to not abuse it as the Corinthians were.

 

[Arial]

..nor is this exclusive to Catholics/Orthodox. There are Protestants that teach the "real presence" in the Eucharist as well.
I.E. iirc, James White (Reformed) holds to a real presence doctrine (but I could be wrong)

You are wrong and if you are going to make that accusation, you should present the evidence. When White refers to the presence of Jesus at communion, he does not mean His literal body turned into bread, and His literal blood turned into wine, as the Catholics do. (Magic!) He is present ("Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, their I am in their midst".) He does not mean or say Jesus is present in the bread and wine.

 

[Arch Stanton]

..nor is this exclusive to Catholics/Orthodox. There are Protestants that teach the "real presence" in the Eucharist as well.
I.E. iirc, James White (Reformed) holds to a real presence doctrine (but I could be wrong)

Yes, they teach that but without the ministerial priesthood [Catholic/Orthodox], it isn't valid.... see below

Apostolicae Curae​

On the Nullity of Anglican Orders​

Pope Leo XIII - 1896

On the Nullity of Anglican Orders - Papal Encyclicals

In Perpetual Remembrance 1. We have dedicated to the welfare of the noble English nation no small portion of the Apostolic care and charity by which, helped by His grace, we endeavor to fulfill the office and follow in the … Continue reading →

www.papalencyclicals.net

 

[Arch Stanton]

Yes, it does. Sadly, the RCC view of the relevant scripture has the body of Christ holding a piece of bread while calling it his body. His body is holding his body. That interpretation, logically, means Jesus has two bodies, one of flesh and blood/bone, and the other made of bread. It does so in spite of the fact Jesus had used bread in reference to himself figuratively many times before. I read scripture as written. You do not. I read it as written because I'm not biased by the extrabiblical doctrines. You read scripture not as written because you've been taught to read it that way and you openly acknowledge that fact, and do so in spite of what is written.

I'm okay with you doing that in your life but do not expect me to do the same.

Augustine

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

 

[Mr GLee]

This isn't a parable.

Thanks.

Really? OK why not? How does the scripture define the word Parable? Christ our teacher spoke not without parables or figures hiding the gospel understating of those who follow another authority other than sola scriptura. (all things written in the law and prophets )

Ezekiel The foundation of the word parable demonstrating how it works .The prophet /apostle complaining of being accused of being a weirdo speaking in tongues the spiritual meaning was hid from all to include the prophet

Ezekiel 20:48-49King James Version48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.Then said I, Ah Lord God! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?


They thought he was a lunatic fell off the deep end off the wagon LOL

How do you define the word parable or figure as to its purpose and usage? Parables one of those things that can grow in understanding or at least I would think. Christ purposely hid the spiritual understanding from the apostles again to teach how to walk understand by faith the unseen eternal things of God He spoke not without it would be up to them who say the opposite. show the context from where they get the idea from. Is there a aposing verse?

We have the rest of our lives to learn and he promise us if he did begin the good teaching work in us he will continue till our last breath. Philippians 1:6

Our daily bread teach us your thoughts as your understanding, empower us give us a desire to do them according to the power of His name . . .Abba Holy Father

 

[GoKart Mozart]

You are wrong and if you are going to make that accusation, you should present the evidence. When White refers to the presence of Jesus at communion, he does not mean His literal body turned into bread, and His literal blood turned into wine, as the Catholics do. (Magic!) He is present ("Wherever two or three are gathered together in my, their I am in their midst".) He does not mean or say Jesus is present in the bread and wine.

There ws no accusation there. I watched a series of videos on the Alpha & Omega Ministries Youtube channel (which I presumed to belong to James White). The topic was NOT the Eucharist (KJV Onlyism iirc) but I vaguely recall White speaking of the real presence positively.
Again, I could be wrong, perhaps it was a guest in the discussion.
if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will gladly admit such. The fact remains, there are Protestants that DO teach real presence in the Eucharist even if my memory of which is spurrious.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Thanks.

Really? OK why not?

Examples would include.....
sheep/goat
prodigal son
good samaritan
mustard seed
the lamp
the lost sheep
the two debtors
the sower
the rich fool
the watchful servant

Quite different than John's telling of Christ and the Eucharist.

Our daily bread teach us your thoughts as your understanding, empower us give us a desire to do them according to the power of His name . . .Abba Holy Father

Mt 6:9-11

The Lord’s Prayer

“This is how you are to pray:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread; ....

[What would be our daily bread?... The Eucharist is offered at Mass every day!!!]​

Something not "daily," but something "supersubstantial" has taken place…. If you peer under the veil of the English word "daily," you will find this wondrous nugget of a word: ἐπιούσιον, or, transliterated, epiousion.]

The word epiousion, an adjective modifying the word bread (ἄρτον = arton), is the accusative form of the adjective epiousios. It is the only adjective in the entirety of the Lord's Prayer, suggesting a special or unique importance.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

There ws no accusation there. I watched a series of videos on the Alpha & Omega Ministries Youtube channel (which I presumed to belong to James White). The topic was NOT the Eucharist (KJV Onlyism iirc) but I vaguely recall White speaking of the real presence positively.
Again, I could be wrong, perhaps it was a guest in the discussion.
if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will gladly admit such. The fact remains, there are Protestants that DO teach real presence in the Eucharist even if my memory of which is spurrious.

providing evidence for Ariel's sake.
Protestants (groups) that DO teach real presence in the Eucharist
(link is to wikipedia article on topic)

 

[Mr GLee]

Is Christ's Presence in the sacraments at communion?

Regardless of long held church's tradition, scriptures says no, because that would make the bread and the wine idols, making it more than what it is to be done for, which is to be simply done in remembrance of Him in proclaiming the Lord's death till He comes; nothing more than that is going on there at communion in His eyes.

There is a risk of being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event if we are have communion for more than just in remembrance of Him.

Psalm 135:15 The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 16 They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not; 17 They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths. 18 They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.... 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Ceremonial laws. Show time, lights camera action are shadows of the substance used to preach the sufferings of Christ( the gospel)
beforehand and the glory of the bloody cross the substance of the ceremonies' ( 1 Peter 1:9-12)

Aarons two sons on the first day of priesthood being baptized to indicate the work of the Holy Spirit as a sign or demonstration to the other surrounding nations they added thier own personal touch hoping to put thier signature of self edification The strange fire (whatever it is that adds or takes away) It consumed them left the ceremonial clothing without a hint of smoke

Changing the shadows to sacraments clearly a oral tradition of dying mankind .

What false prophets false apostles like Aerons two son did rather than understanding it was a sign from God and not to venerate their own dying flesh. But in a hope of drawing the unbelievers in to search the scriptures . the bloody demonstration the second of three had nothing to do with a sign to the world

Believers have prophecy sealed till the last day under the Sun.Fulfilling prophecy the first part of the three day and night demonstration the Garden of Gethsemane then to the hill of skull the bloody , and last the demonstration of tomb .

Many shadow worshipers, wonder seekers. They made Jesus into a circus seal . . .work a miracle do a trick then when we see it wIth our own eyes then we will believe. I would think as in . . . . . why put your trust in things not seen ? They have no faith as power that could please God.
In that way a person cannot eat or drink thier way into heaven what goes in comes out as draught rather than eating our daily bread thy will be done of earth coming from heaven (headquarters )

 

[Josheb]

Augustine

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

Nonsense

 

[Arial]

There ws no accusation there. I watched a series of videos on the Alpha & Omega Ministries Youtube channel (which I presumed to belong to James White). The topic was NOT the Eucharist (KJV Onlyism iirc) but I vaguely recall White speaking of the real presence positively.
Again, I could be wrong, perhaps it was a guest in the discussion.
if I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will gladly admit such. The fact remains, there are Protestants that DO teach real presence in the Eucharist even if my memory of which is spurrious.

AsI said, you cannot presume that a Protestant means the same thing by real presence as do the Catholics. To the Protestant there is no other presence of Jesus but the real presence. They do not confine His presence to His flesh and blood, but to Him. So when they relate it to Communion, they may mean a special presence but that presence is not in the bread and wine. I have given in another post what it means. He is with them, in the room so to speak, in a spiritual sense, as they remember their union with Him through His work on the cross. The communion tradition is worship.

 

[GoKart Mozart]

AsI said, you cannot presume that a Protestant means the same thing by real presence as do the Catholics. To the Protestant there is no other presence of Jesus but the real presence. They do not confine His presence to His flesh and blood, but to Him. So when they relate it to Communion, they may mean a special presence but that presence is not in the bread and wine. I have given in another post what it means. He is with them, in the room so to speak, in a spiritual sense, as they remember their union with Him through His work on the cross. The communion tradition is worship.

anticipated and addressed ->here
(it would have been in the post quoted but alas, i'm not faster than the timeout feature prohibiting edits.)

 

[Arial]

providing evidence for Ariel's sake.
Protestants (groups) that DO teach real presence in the Eucharist
(link is to wikipedia article on topic)

I said in my first post in this thread that I do not know if the Reformed view is correct or incorrect. It isn't something I ponder because my mind will not find a definitive answer---I feel the Bible itself is not definitive, it only says what it says, and then humans interpret it one way or another. One thing Scripture says is from the mouth of Christ Himself is, "Do this in remembrance of Me." So that is all the farther I go with it at this point.

 

[makesends]

AsI said, you cannot presume that a Protestant means the same thing by real presence as do the Catholics. To the Protestant there is no other presence of Jesus but the real presence. They do not confine His presence to His flesh and blood, but to Him. So when they relate it to Communion, they may mean a special presence but that presence is not in the bread and wine. I have given in another post what it means. He is with them, in the room so to speak, in a spiritual sense, as they remember their union with Him through His work on the cross. The communion tradition is worship.

And, specifically, NOT worship of the elements.

 

[donadams]

Yes, it does. Sadly, the RCC view of the relevant scripture has the body of Christ holding a piece of bread while calling it his body. His body is holding his body. That interpretation, logically, means Jesus has two bodies, one of flesh and blood/bone, and the other made of bread. It does so in spite of the fact Jesus had used bread in reference to himself figuratively many times before. I read scripture as written. You do not. I read it as written because I'm not biased by the extrabiblical doctrines. You read scripture not as written because you've been taught to read it that way and you openly acknowledge that fact, and do so in spite of what is written.

I'm okay with you doing that in your life but do not expect me to do the same.

There is more than one kind of body

 

[donadams]

You did not answer my question,

In that parable the signified understand of prophecy . Bread as a metaphor is used to represent the living word of God. The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ. the believers

The spiritual eternal unseen body. Not a body of dying flesh like that of the son of man Jesus He says because it is the Holy Spirit alone.that gives spit life His bread as living words . . . .again flesh the temporal profits for zero

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh( what the eyes) see profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit,(not dying flesh) and they are life.

Many Jews that were hoping the flesh could profit walked away not believing the eyes or ears.They went and looked for another Jewish fleshly leader to follow. You could say like the Pope.

Peter who was given the kind of bread that gives understanding said (communion bread) Inspired by our one Holy Father Peter our brother in the Lord to whom shall we go you have words of eternal life not dying flesh of eternal life.

The bread of Spirit life our daily bread is the kind of food the disciples knew not of at first the spiritual understanding was not given to them When he finished the parable then they understood Dying Flesh has no value in salvation realizing it is the unsen Holy Spirt that brings new born again spirit life

John 4:31-33King James Version In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Its doesn't get any clear. Two teaching masters which one to serve? 1#Serve the unseen eternal things of our one Holy Father or #2 the legion dying mankind as fathers that some call patron saints?

Patron saints a doctrine of dying mankind .Not found in the Bible (sola scriptura)

It is His sacramental body, blood, soul, and divinity

And it His flesh crucified that obtained our eternal salvation!!!

 

[Mr GLee]

Examples would include.....
sheep/goat
prodigal son
good samaritan
mustard seed
the lamp
the lost sheep
the two debtors
the sower
the rich fool
the watchful servant

Quite different than John's telling of Christ and the Eucharist.


Mt 6:9-11

The Lord’s Prayer

“This is how you are to pray:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread; ....

[What would be our daily bread?... The Eucharist is offered at Mass every day!!!]​

Something not "daily," but something "supersubstantial" has taken place…. If you peer under the veil of the English word "daily," you will find this wondrous nugget of a word: ἐπιούσιον, or, transliterated, epiousion.]

The word epiousion, an adjective modifying the word bread (ἄρτον = arton), is the accusative form of the adjective epiousios. It is the only adjective in the entirety of the Lord's Prayer, suggesting a special or unique importance.

Ok that's Ten. That's all?

He said without parables he did not use the signified tongue of prophecy Parables they have the power to reveal the mysteries spiritual . . .or conceal them from the unbeliever.

Why did he speak and hide the understanding of unseen things of God's faithfulness ? Why did he hide his understanding of faith from one and reveal to another.?

I would suggest the whole time when KIngs were in Israel Kings the Pagan oral tradition of dying mankind foundation.

The Holy Spirit used that period as parable, same word as "figure" you could parables as a figure of speech up until the time of the first century reformation when the shadows as ceremonial laws became substance and the government of God was restored to the time before kings .

Note. . .(PURPLE) my offering

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying,(Use the temporal things seen to give the unseen understanding) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure (another word for parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Was that time period 1st century used as a parable

 

[Mr GLee]

It is His sacramental body, blood, soul, and divinity

And it His flesh crucified that obtained our eternal salvation!!!

Hi thanks for the reply .

Which body? His new body as a born again as son of God, therefore spiritual not seen or His dying body used as demonstration of the power of the one Holy Father not seen pouring out his spirit life on the Son of man Jesus flesh

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I would ask define the word dead. And remember Peter our brother in the Lord went to town preaching lies and said John will die. What did Jesus say??