Is anyone planning on...............

[Eleanor]

Pay attention when Elenor replies, you may learn something.

Aw, shucks. . .

 

[Carbon]

Ok we will start with “faith alone” and that really means alone, nothing added!

Phil 1:29 says not “faith alone” but faith and suffering

Go for it.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, Phil 1:29.

Is suffering some sort of work for you, something that is added for salvation? Or are you just throwing verses out not thinking?

It is obvious, to suffer for Christ is a gift of God. Matter of fact, they (sufferings) are appointed by God. Suffering for the sake of Christ is a high honor. And God gives His children the grace to endure suffering.


I understand your leaders don't want you to interpret scripture yourself, for various reasons.

But try to actually read scripture in context. It even will help to ask questions.

You still owe me an answer. About your works salvation. There is the question again, in bold below..
Thanks


{Also, would you explain how work is involved, in which way? I would like to see how well you know your own religion.}

 

[Carbon]

Aw, shucks. . .

I'm just trying to help them.

 

[Carbon]

Short version Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved

Short version? Is that what you call that?
Okay.


Well,

Also, would you explain how work is involved, in which way? I would like to see how well you know your own religion.


Still waiting.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm just trying to help them.

Good point.

 

[Mikeuk]

According to your religion, when speaking from his chair, the pope speaks infallibly in matters of faith and morals.

Sinner, they are indeed. Probably more so then you want to admit or know.

Huh?


Huh?

Just what am I supposed to learn there? He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36.

Point out what you want me to learn. I think it's pretty straightforward.

Transubstantiation is a false doctrine.

The actual Greek of John 3:36 says
He that believeth….
He who disobeys .. the opposite of believe is disobey.

"ἀπειθέω" ("apeitheō") fail to comply

 

[Frank Robert]

Not according to Galatians and Hebrews. Adding works to faith is condemned in both books. And Jesus had much to say about the religious works if His day with the Jewish leaders. He condemned them.

When Paul refers to works he is referring to actions required by the Jewish law: circumcision, Sabbath observance, kosher food requirements, etc.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one? You do well: even the demons believe, and they shudder. But do you wish to know, O shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works and faith was completed by the works. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” And he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2:18-24)

When James speaks of “works” he is not referring to actions required by the Jewish law: Sabbath observance, kosher food requirements, etc.. He is clearly talking about good deeds: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked (the two examples he gives), and so on. For James, an intellectual assent to Christianity that does not manifest itself in how one lives is of no use. It can’t save a soul.

We see this in Jesus's prophecy in Matthew (25:32)--the sheep (i.e, the compassionate) will sit on God's right hand (and find salvation), and the goats (the hard-hearted) will sit on the left (and be sent to damnation).

 

[Mikeuk]

Good point.

You will not even help yourself till you study what YOU mean by faith, and saved for that matter,
You cannot make sentences out of words you cannot define.

So do you mean “ intellectual assent”? By “ faith “ But Even the devil agrees Jesus is Lord, he will not be saved!
So what else do you include in faith?

Im trying To help those of you who have been misled by sola Fidel.

 

[Carbon]

When Paul refers to works he is referring to actions required by the Jewish law: circumcision, Sabbath observance, kosher food requirements, etc.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one? You do well: even the demons believe, and they shudder. But do you wish to know, O shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works and faith was completed by the works. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” And he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2:18-24)

When James speaks of “works” he is not referring to actions required by the Jewish law: Sabbath observance, kosher food requirements, etc.. He is clearly talking about good deeds: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked (the two examples he gives), and so on. For James, an intellectual assent to Christianity that does not manifest itself in how one lives is of no use. It can’t save a soul.

We see this in Jesus's prophecy in Matthew (25:32)--the sheep (i.e, the compassionate) will sit on God's right hand (and find salvation), and the goats (the hard-hearted) will sit on the left (and be sent to damnation).

And good works are the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Carbon]

You will not even help yourself till you study what YOU mean by faith, and saved for that matter,
You cannot make sentences out of words you cannot define.

So do you mean “ intellectual assent”? Even the devil agrees Jesus is Lord, he will not be saved!
So what else do you include in faith.

Im trying To help those of you misled by sola Fidel.

You will not even help yourself until you learn what exactly your church means by saved by faith + works, until you study and learn.
How does that work? Can you explain what is meant, the details? I want to make sure you understand your own religion before I continue.

 

[Mikeuk]

You will not even help yourself until you learn what exactly your church means by saved by faith + works, until you study and learn.
How does that work? Can you explain what is meant, the details? I want to make sure you understand your own religion before I continue.

I want to understand what you mean by faith.
you are the ones asserting “ sola Fidel”
Protrstants don’t seem to know.

As I pointed out the opposite is “ disobey” John 3:36
Even the devil believes Jesus is Lord.
So there is more than intellectual assent.

So start with basics . What do you mean By “ faith”

 

[Carbon]

I want to understand what you mean by faith.
you are the ones asserting “ sola Fidel”
Protrstants don’t seem to know.

As I pointed out the opposite is “ disobey” John 3:36
Even the devil believes Jesus is Lord.
So there is more than intellectual assent.

So start with basics . What do you mean By “ faith”

Okay, what we have here is a RC, who does not understand what his church means by saved by works. Faith + works to be exact. But he cannot explain the meaning.

Well, ill be back later. Maybe he will make an attempt. Of maybe he actually knows and can explain it.

 

[Mikeuk]

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, Phil 1:29.

Is suffering some sort of work for you, something that is added for salvation? Or are you just throwing verses out not thinking?

It is obvious, to suffer for Christ is a gift of God. Matter of fact, they (sufferings) are appointed by God. Suffering for the sake of Christ is a high honor. And God gives His children the grace to endure suffering.


I understand your leaders don't want you to interpret scripture yourself, for various reasons.

But try to actually read scripture in context. It even will help to ask questions.

You still owe me an answer. About your works salvation. There is the question again, in bold below..
Thanks


{Also, would you explain how work is involved, in which way? I would like to see how well you know your own religion.}

You know , I had you down as one of the bright ones, who saw through the anti catholic myths, to arrive at some more difficult questins.

Im beginning to realise you echo all the same false stuff.

So start at the beginning, what do you mean by faith?

 

[Mikeuk]

Okay, what we have here is a RC, who does not understand what his church means by saved by works. Faith + works to be exact. But he cannot explain the meaning.

Well, ill be back later. Maybe he will make an attempt. Of maybe he actually knows and can explain it.

utter rubbish and you know it.
Until you define what you mean by faith we cannot have a conversation.

If you actually studied catholicism, and the history you would know that the Holy See agreed a concord with part of Lutheranism precisely by defining a meaning of faith. But having agreed in context faith alone, the see stated that whilst the issue of salvatin was agree. the phrase “ sola Fidel” was a misnomer with all the wrong connotation.

Protestants love hyperbole. much like “ total depravity” that isn’t really total , or “ irresistible grace” that can be resisted, and people who can seek God before justification, and lose salvation afterwards .
You all confuse yourselves with in accurate definitions . Lost in a maze of your own making. .

 

[Frank Robert]

And good works are the fruit of the Spirit.

Absolutely. Which is why it is difficult to imagine how someone can profess faith in Jesus without doing works.

 

[Illuminator]

Okay, what we have here is a RC, who does not understand what his church means by saved by works. Faith + works to be exact. But he cannot explain the meaning.

Well, ill be back later. Maybe he will make an attempt. Of maybe he actually knows and can explain it.

Maybe you can explain the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. That's the starting point.

We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace...

...The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God...

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)
The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

In discussing the work of the Holy Spirit, we have seen that he sanctifies the world. We have shown how he sanctifies each individual [p. 262] soul by his actual and sanctifying grace, and his other gifts. Man, for his part, in order to arrive at full sanctification, must cooperate with the grace of the Holy Spirit through faith, hope, love of God and neighbor, and prayer; but he must also perform other ‘works.’ These works are meritorious only when they are performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .Through these and similar works. There are few truths so infallibly attested by Scripture. Christ himself has promised: ‘Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven’ (Matt 5:12) . . .
. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in [p. 264] his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.

Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

Anti-Catholic polemicist James McCarthy bears false witness, in distorting & caricaturing the true Catholic doctrine of merit by taking isolated Catholic statements out of context.

www.patheos.com

 

[Illuminator]

@donadams @Mikeuk

Would either of you show me scripture proof that we are not saved by faith alone?

Also, would you explain how work is involved, in which way? I would like to see how well you know your own religion.


Thanks

See the above post for a detailed explanation.

 

[Frank Robert]

@donadams @Mikeuk

Would either of you show me scripture proof that we are not saved by faith alone?

What Catholics Believe About Faith and Works

“Protestants believe in faith alone. Catholics believe in faith and works.” You hear Protestants and Catholics say this all the time. But is it accurate?

www.catholic.com

“Protestants believe in faith alone, while Catholics believe in faith and works.” You hear both Protestants and Catholics say this all the time.
But it’s a misleading oversimplification. If you tell a typical Evangelical, “You believe in faith alone, but we Catholics believe in faith and works,” you will cause him to think that the Catholic Church teaches something that, in fact, it says is false.

Here’s why . . .

Clink on the above link to learn why...

 

[Mikeuk]

Okay, what we have here is a RC, who does not understand what his church means by saved by works. Faith + works to be exact. But he cannot explain the meaning.

Well, ill be back later. Maybe he will make an attempt. Of maybe he actually knows and can explain it.

I’m still waiting.
Can none of you to define “ faith” since you hold “ faith alone “ to be true?
How odd.
The definition matters to understanding scripture.
We cannot have a discussion on “ faith alone” if none of you know what faith Means


As for myths.
Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. And you know it.
Endless popes spoke out on the necessity to read scripture.
You preach a false caricature of catholicism. I had you down as cleverer than that.

But back to my question, you left unanswered
: do you have a Eucharist as taught By John to his disciples? and the succession needed to perform it?
Or have you invented your own?

 

[Red Baker]

Do you really think joking of another man's faith in Christ is a fun thing to do?

They deserve it! 1st Kings 18:27~"And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked."