If it is not in the bible, why do you believe?

[Tambora]

God is omniscient, which means that he knows everything and he knows it all in advance. He also works all things according to the counsel of his own will. This means that when God asks a question, he is not looking to learn anything (he already knows and understands completely). Before asking for suggestions, God had already planned what he was going to do and by means of which spirit.

None of that excludes God from desiring to include involvement of His creation which can be seen throughout scripture.
And God's desire to include His creation certainly doesn't mean He is looking to learn anything.

There is no divine council

Scripture says otherwise.

There are a few highly dubious teachers who teach this "divine council" nonsense and a supposed pantheon of gods (Michael Heiser being one of the main ones).

This shows just how clueless you are to the subject and the highly qualified people that teach it, including highly respected orthodox Jews such as:

Professor Benjamin D. Sommer

A, summa cum laude, with distinction in Philosophy and in Judaic Studies, Yale University, 1986; Studies in the department of Bible at Hebrew University, Jerusalem, 1986–1987; MA, Bible and Ancient Near East, Brandeis University, 1991; PhD, with distinction, Religion/Biblical Studies, University of Chicago, 1994​

​

Benjamin D. Sommer joined The Jewish Theological Seminary faculty as professor of Bible in July 2008. Previously, he served as director of the Crown Family Center for Jewish Studies at Northwestern University, where he had taught since 1994. Dr. Sommer has been a fellow at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, the Tikvah Center for Jewish Law and Civilization at the New York​

University School of Law, and the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. He has served as a visiting faculty member in the Department of Bible of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and at the Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. He has received fellowships from the American Council of Learned Societies and the Yad Hanadiv/Berakha Foundation.​

​

Dr. Sommer was elected to membership in the American Academy for Jewish Research in 2017. He was chosen to e a member of the Biblical Colloquium in 2014.​

​

Dr. Sommer has long been active as a lecturer and scholar-in-residence, teaching rabbis, Jewish educators, and laypeople in a variety of settings in the United States and Israel.​

A Jewish Professor with those credentials and is entrusted to teach Jewish rabbis and Jewish educators can hardly be considered "dubious".
God's divine council is not some new-fangled "dubious" teaching, it has been shown to be believed and taught for centuries by Jews.

 

[David1701]

None of that excludes God from desiring to include involvement of His creation which can be seen throughout scripture.
And God's desire to include His creation certainly doesn't mean He is looking to learn anything.



Scripture says otherwise.



This shows just how clueless you are to the subject and the highly qualified people that teach it, including highly respected orthodox Jews such as:

Professor Benjamin D. Sommer

A, summa cum laude, with distinction in Philosophy and in Judaic Studies, Yale University, 1986; Studies in the department of Bible at Hebrew University, Jerusalem, 1986–1987; MA, Bible and Ancient Near East, Brandeis University, 1991; PhD, with distinction, Religion/Biblical Studies, University of Chicago, 1994​

​

Benjamin D. Sommer joined The Jewish Theological Seminary faculty as professor of Bible in July 2008. Previously, he served as director of the Crown Family Center for Jewish Studies at Northwestern University, where he had taught since 1994. Dr. Sommer has been a fellow at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, the Tikvah Center for Jewish Law and Civilization at the New York​

University School of Law, and the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. He has served as a visiting faculty member in the Department of Bible of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and at the Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. He has received fellowships from the American Council of Learned Societies and the Yad Hanadiv/Berakha Foundation.​

​

Dr. Sommer was elected to membership in the American Academy for Jewish Research in 2017. He was chosen to e a member of the Biblical Colloquium in 2014.​

​

Dr. Sommer has long been active as a lecturer and scholar-in-residence, teaching rabbis, Jewish educators, and laypeople in a variety of settings in the United States and Israel.​

A Jewish Professor with those credentials and is entrusted to teach Jewish rabbis and Jewish educators can hardly be considered "dubious".
God's divine council is not some new-fangled "dubious" teaching, it has been shown to be believed and taught for centuries by Jews.

Orthodox Jews are unbelievers, over whose minds there is a veil, until or unless they turn to Jesus Christ in faith, by the grace of God. You cannot trust Orthodox Jewish teaching.

 

[Tambora]

Orthodox Jews are unbelievers, over whose minds there is a veil, until or unless they turn to Jesus Christ in faith, by the grace of God. You cannot trust Orthodox Jewish teaching.

Save that hogwash of yours.
It is foolish to say that none of one's research can be used because they don't believe everything the way you do.
You even put down the academic scholar, Hesier, and he's a Christian.

 

[David1701]

It is foolish to say that none of one's research can be used because they don't believe everything the way you do.

That is not what I said. Don't twist my words.

Here is why you cannot trust Orthodox Jewish doctrine (apart from the obvious fact that they don't believe in the Messiah who has come):

2 Cor. 3:13-16 (EMTV)
13 and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Unbelieving Jews (ones who do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah) have a veil blinding their minds, so that they cannot understand the Old Covenant when they read it.

You even put down the academic scholar, Hesier, and he's a Christian.

Michael Heiser might, or might not, be a genuine Christian; but, he teaches some very unscriptural doctrines; so, at the least, no-one should trust what he says.

Being an academic is neither here nor there, since the Bible is understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, not by man's academic prowess.

 

[Tambora]

That is not what I said. Don't twist my words.

Here is why you cannot trust Orthodox Jewish doctrine (apart from the obvious fact that they don't believe in the Messiah who has come):

2 Cor. 3:13-16 (EMTV)
13 and not as Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is removed in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 But whenever one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Unbelieving Jews (ones who do not believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah) have a veil blinding their minds, so that they cannot understand the Old Covenant when they read it.


Michael Heiser might, or might not, be a genuine Christian; but, he teaches some very unscriptural doctrines; so, at the least, no-one should trust what he says.

Being an academic is neither here nor there, since the Bible is understood by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, not by man's academic prowess.

Both Sommer and Heiser (and many other scholars) are correct of the ancient Jews belief of a divine council of God due to scripture and they have documented it with much research.
It was ancient Jews that penned scripture and scripture most certainly speaks of God's divine council.
It's not something they made up.

 

[David1701]

Both Sommer and Heiser (and many other scholars) are correct of the ancient Jews belief of a divine council of God due to scripture and they have documented it with much research.
It was ancient Jews that penned scripture and scripture most certainly speaks of God's divine council.
It's not something they made up.

There is a huge difference between ancient Jews who penned the Scriptures, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and ancient Jews who indulged in mythical speculation. Remember that it is interpretation of Scripture that is at issue here, not Scripture itself.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Right! Not Jesus. The word (of God).

How can anything be WITH something and BE that something?

Since neither you Nor I really know much of anything about the totality of God, or how things work in HIS kingdom, we'll just have to ask later (if we even need to).

 

[donadams]

We believe cos the revelation of Jesus Christ is not limited to your tradition of 66 books with missing chapters!

Thks

 

[donadams]

What bothers me is what is in scripture or supported by scripture but you do not believe it!

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Since neither you Nor I really know much of anything about the totality of God

Appeal to Ignorance. Never read verses about knowing God? (You have to add words like totality, AS IF any mystery means all is unknown)

 

[Ritajanice]

If what you received isn’t in the penned word then it wasn’t from God.

Who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....the Living Holy Spirit that is who...and there it is, in the penned word.

 

[Arch Stanton]

If what you received isn’t in the penned word then it wasn’t from God.

Why?

 

[Ritajanice]

We are Born Again by divine revelation, which is Biblical.

We all have our own testimony , it must line up with the penned word, otherwise anyone can claim to be Born Of God’s Seed?

So, please tell me why what we believe comes from God, shouldn’t be in the penned word?

How do you know that God is who he says he is?....who witnesses that truth to our what in us?

 

[EarlyActs]

@Soldier of Christ 1516, @grace2, @Runningman and anyone I don't have listed.

This is the spin off from the Trinity thread called The elephant named Trinity

And while this is a natural tie in over there, this needs to be stand alone, IMO
From the other thread I started...

Alright boys and girls..... I think it is time for all good men to come to the aid of their party.... or better phrased to the aid of their beliefs....

All you anti-trins out there who hyperventilate that trinity believers believe such when the actual word trinity is not in the bible...

I want to start a new thread ( this one) as a carry over from my elephant named trinity one to show you that there are other omissions from the Holy Scriptures that are common beliefs among those who have a belief of YHWH God, and the one that is called His Son, Jesus, that might lead you to tell people if you were asked that your religion... your faith... is Christian.

And then tell us how you are going to back that up when.....................................................................................

Looking at these following how you are going to change the way you describe things or your talk when you cannot lead a person to a verse to prove what YOU are saying.

Not precisely just on the Trinity that you hyper-anti-trins get so bent about...but it is ... IT IS... time that a good old bruhaha ensues regarding all things commonly believed by Alleged Christians, and Practicing Christians and a Christian by any other name.

So I am going to start with a list of 3 common words that are assumed to reflect things of Christianity beliefs AND THESE ARE NOT EVEN IN THE BIBLE.

Christianity​

You have to wonder if Jesus Christ intended to start a religion when the word ‘Christianity’ doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible.

Oh sure... you have churches described and named in the New Testament... The book of Revelation names 7.

but never once a reference that might say something about the new found they are learning about.

It was said by Dan Foster when he listed some of the words...
"the first recorded use of the term “Christianity” was actually by a character named Ignatius of Antioch — an early Christian writer and church bishop — in some letters he wrote early in the second century AD. That’s somewhere in the order of 80–100 years after the death of Christ."

Now.. I trust you are sitting down...

Try this well know word on for size then I challenge you to go to you bible and tell us where it is listed...

Another great one by Dan Foster...

Christian​

Now, technically, the word “Christian” is in the Bible, but I include it for interest’s sake because it appears much less than you might expect in the book, which gave birth to the religion. In fact, the word ‘Christian’ only appears three times in the Bible.

It turns out that the early members of the church didn’t refer to themselves as “Christians.” It was a name given to them by those outside of the faith. In fact, the term “Christian” — literally meaning “little Christs” was given somewhat flippantly or even derogatorily. It wasn’t a term of endearment. It was an insult.

Back then, you could imagine someone using the word ‘Christians’ with a dismissive wave of the hand and a roll of the eyes. Not much has changed, really.

Aside from Acts 11:26, the word “Christian” is used only two other times in the New Testament: in Acts 26:28 (by Agrippa, an unbelieving King who applied the name he knew as an outsider) and 1 Peter 4:16 in the context of enduring all the suffering associated with the title.

Okay... Christian really does not count cause even a single mention would make the cut..... but depending on your view
another well known and generally accepted term not mentioned in the bible is Rapture.

Satan Was Once Lucifer​

The fall of Satan from heaven has become deeply entrenched in Christian thought, but the origins of the Devil are not found anywhere in the Bible. In fact, Satan is not even used as a proper name in the Old Testament. Instead, the Hebrew ha satan is a title meaning simply “the adversary.” The Devil is not truly named and Hell not really described until the New Testament.

The Seven Archangels​

Christian bookstores and blogs are both full of information about the various archangels. Most writings claim that there are seven, but which angels make the cut varies between authors. This popular belief in seven archangels is not Biblically based. The only angel every described as an archangel in the canonical Bible is Michael. The other so-called archangels are never labeled as such. Frankly, some of the angels commonly listed as archangels are never named in the Bible at all much less described as archangels.

For any Catholics reading this....

Praying to Saint Mary​

©Editorial credit: Sidney de Almeida/ Shutterstock.
Some Christians find solace in praying to Mother Mary for their intercessions, along with other saints. The Bible does not explicitly command or suggest that people should pray to them for help or forgiveness.

Taking Personal Time Daily for Prayer​

©Editorial Credit: PeopleImages.com - Yuri A / Shutterstock.
While some personal time with the Lord is encouraged in the Bible’s teaching, there is no amount of outline of the personal time that a Christian should put aside to speak to God in the Bible. Having children say prayers at night is something that has just become a tradition.

Sunday is the Sabbath​

©Editorial credit: MarinelaM / Shutterstock.
While some people believe that Sunday is a day of Sabbath, that is not the teaching of the Bible. The Bible does not talk about observing Sunday as a day of worship. It does talk about Saturday as the day of rest and worship and designates it as the Sabbath.

I am going to stop due to length and simply say there are a vast number of things that are considered to be Christian
but not found in the bible.

Even​

The Idea of Three Wise Men​

© Courtesy of Christianity.com
The nativity scene often includes three wise men, but the Bible mentions “wise men” without specifying a number. This detail has been added through tradition rather than biblical text.

hat does not mean they are necessarily wrong. It only means that if it is sound doctrine then it should be believed.

But at no time should someone be challenged in a vitriol way because beliefs don't line up.

So what else is there that we dont have in the Bible?

Can't quite tell what's eating you, but I guess we all have things eating us. "Christians" is in Acts, yes, but more important, when Josephus was summarizing the theological landscape of 1st century Judea, he used it. The others were Essenes at Qumran, Pharisees and Zealots (I think he lumped Sadducees with them).

 

[Rella]

Can't quite tell what's eating you, but I guess we all have things eating us. "Christians" is in Acts, yes, but more important, when Josephus was summarizing the theological landscape of 1st century Judea, he used it. The others were Essenes at Qumran, Pharisees and Zealots (I think he lumped Sadducees with them).

I stand corrected.

What always eats at me... aside from getting over a nasty case of covid just now... are those people who say its not ture because it is not in the bible. Especially the anti-trin group say it cant be because of that.

Anyone want to delete what I wrote, I understand.

 

[makesends]

astrologers-not wise men--That star by satans will guided them to Herod who wanted Jesus dead as did satan. They were supposed to go back and report to Herod but angels intervened.
Yes 1 archangel=Michael.
Ezekial 28:14-17--describes who the devil was= the anointed Cherub.
Job 1:6 mentions satan.

How do you know it was Satan's will? Are you saying Satan has power over the stars? Has it not occurred to you that maybe they went to Herod out of their assumption that he would know who and where this child was? Or even out of royal courtesy? See how easily you jump to conclusions!

 

[Keiw1]

How do you know it was Satan's will? Are you saying Satan has power over the stars? Has it not occurred to you that maybe they went to Herod out of their assumption that he would know who and where this child was? Or even out of royal courtesy? See how easily you jump to conclusions!

Satan controlled the weather( elements) in killing Jobs children and livestock-Job 1:16-18

 

[makesends]

Satan controlled the weather( elements) in killing Jobs children and livestock-Job 1:16-18

So what? That doesn't answer the question, not to mention it doesn't explain why you are so sure about your conjecture.

 

[David Lamb]

How do you know it was Satan's will? Are you saying Satan has power over the stars? Has it not occurred to you that maybe they went to Herod out of their assumption that he would know who and where this child was? Or even out of royal courtesy? See how easily you jump to conclusions!

Besides, the bible account doesn't say that they followed the star to Jerusalem.

“1 ¶ Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."” (Mt 2:1-2 NKJV)

It was only after they had visited Herod that they saw again the star which they had seen in the East:

“9 ¶ When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.” (Mt 2:9-10 NKJV)

It doesn't say, "the star which they had been following" but "the star which they had seen in the East."

 

[Keiw1]

So what? That doesn't answer the question, not to mention it doesn't explain why you are so sure about your conjecture.

Would God lead them to Herod who wanted Jesus dead=No.