If it is not in the bible, why do you believe?

[CrowCross]

Neither was He really a man but only the likeness of a man just as the pig was not a pig but only the likeness of a pig. @Soldier of Christ1516

It's pretty amazing how the spirit of anti-christ has captured the Unitarians.

 

[Arial]

It's pretty amazing how the spirit of anti-christ has captured the Unitarians.

The deceiver, that old serpent of old, hard at work.

 

[Tambora]

One of the issues with Psalm 82 is that "elohim" has more than one meaning (it can mean God, gods,

The term "elohim" is used for beings of the spirit realm.

the God of Israel
Genesis 3:3 ESV
(3) but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”


gods and goddesses of other nations
1 Kings 11:33 ESV
(33) because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.


celestial beings of God's heavenly council
Psalms 82:1 ESV
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


ones that have died and are in the spiritual realm
1 Samuel 28:13 ESV
(13) The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”


demons
Deuteronomy 32:17 ESV
(17) They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

magistrates/judges or can be used as a superlative, e.g. "great").

Not mortal judges.

The prohibition against worshipping other "gods" was a prohibition against idolatry, because statues were often used to represent imaginary deities (and demons could use that idolatry for their evil purposes).

No, it's not about wood and stone that only represent actual spirit beings, it's about the actual spirit beings being worshiped.
The wood and stone idols that are carved out can be burned up, crushed, and destroyed, but that does not destroy the actual spirit beings they represent.
Those spirit beings are worshipped even before a wood or stone idol is carved out.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This is one of the most abused verses in Scripture. John 1:1 does not say anything about Jesus.

True that's V14

John 1 does not say God became flesh but his word became flesh,

But it also says the WORD was God.

 

[David1701]

The term "elohim" is used for beings of the spirit realm.

the God of Israel
Genesis 3:3 ESV
(3) but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”


gods and goddesses of other nations
1 Kings 11:33 ESV
(33) because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and they have not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my rules, as David his father did.


celestial beings of God's heavenly council
Psalms 82:1 ESV
(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


ones that have died and are in the spiritual realm
1 Samuel 28:13 ESV
(13) The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”


demons
Deuteronomy 32:17 ESV
(17) They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.


Not mortal judges.


No, it's not about wood and stone that only represent actual spirit beings, it's about the actual spirit beings being worshiped.
The wood and stone idols that are carved out can be burned up, crushed, and destroyed, but that does not destroy the actual spirit beings they represent.
Those spirit beings are worshipped even before a wood or stone idol is carved out.

Whilst I certainly do believe in the existence of angels and demons (and that there are people who idolatrously worship demons, e.g. religious Satanists, who worship the devil), I do not subscribe to the "heavenly council" doctrine (or the ESV translators' interpretation of Ps. 82:1), which borders on polytheism.

 

[Tambora]

Whilst I certainly do believe in the existence of angels and demons (and that there are people who idolatrously worship demons, e.g. religious Satanists, who worship the devil), I do not subscribe to the "heavenly council" doctrine (or the ESV translators' interpretation of Ps. 82:1), which borders on polytheism.

How can it possibly border on polytheism that God counsels with other spirit beings that are supposed to do His bidding???

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

True that's V14

But it also says the WORD was God.

Right! Not Jesus. The word (of God).

How can anything be WITH something and BE that something?

 

[CrowCross]

Right! Not Jesus. The word (of God).

How can anything be WITH something and BE that something?

The Word who was God became flesh......who was that flesh? Adam?

 

[Papa Smurf]

Yep.
If one takes the Isaiah verses you listed above in a rigid strict isolated sense then anyone else said to be a savior must be rejected.

Hello Tambora, this is but one of the reasons that many struggle with the salvation message of Christianity, because it is so exclusive (or "rigid" as you put it), even though God makes this clear for us in passages like Isaiah 43:10-11 (and in the first Person, to boot), as well in NT passages such as these .. John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Hebrews 9:22, 10:4; 1 John 5:11-12.

.....one more reason to not take the Isaiah verses you quoted above in a rigid strict isolated sense is that other verses in scripture say there are other gods.

Psalms 82 ESV​

(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God [elohim] has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgment:​

Sorry, but God cannot sit in the midst of other gods if other gods do not exist. Not to mention that it would be silly to command people to not worship other gods if other gods are an impossibility. When one tries to take certain scripture verses in a rigid strict isolated sense then they are going to create contradictions with other isolated scripture verses.

Like most words, elohim has MANY different meanings, this includes in the Bible. While Elohim certainly refers to God and to the Godhead in the OT, in other passages it's also used to refer to the divine council of angels in Heaven, to demons, to human leaders, rulers/ruling councils and judges, as well to the many manmade "gods" (idols) of both the Nations, and of individuals in those nations, too (and in some cases, individuals within the nation of Israel .. you may remember that one of King David's wives tried to hang on to her household idols, for instance, and you may also recall that part of Israel itself worshipped another "god" and got in a LOT of trouble for doing so, one that they made for themselves in the image of a "golden calf", at the foot of Mt. Sinai while Moses and God were on top ).

So, there is but one, true Divine Being who we refer to as "God" (as Scripture makes clear for us over and over again .. e.g. Deuteronomy 6:4, 4:39; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:4), the One Divine Creator of everyone and everything, YHWH, who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here's a short, interesting article/commentary (at the link below) about this with a short video attached (7 min long) that discusses Psalm 82:6 (and John 10:34) and how the word "elohim" or "gods" is used in both. The article text and the video text are identical, just FYI, so you can read, listen and/or watch, whatever suits your fancy, all in 7 minutes or less (it's hardly a thorough look at the topic, of course, but it does hit some of the most important points to understand, like most of the articles at the "Got Questions" website do )

~https://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - this topic, that of who the other "gods" that are mentioned in the Bible are (and whether or not any of them are real or truly Divine, like YHWH is), may be a topic worth broaching with your pastor!

 

[Tambora]

Hello Tambora, this is but one of the reasons that many struggle with the salvation message of Christianity, because it is so exclusive (or "rigid" as you put it), even though God makes this clear for us in passages like Isaiah 43:10-11 (and in the first Person, to boot), as well in NT passages such as these .. John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Hebrews 9:22, 10:4; 1 John 5:11-12.


Like most words, elohim has MANY different meanings, this includes in the Bible. While Elohim certainly refers to God and to the Godhead in the OT, in other passages it's also used to refer to the divine council of angels in Heaven, to demons, to human leaders, rulers/ruling councils and judges, as well to the many manmade "gods" (idols) of both the Nations, and of individuals in those nations, too (and in some cases, individuals within the nation of Israel .. you may remember that one of King David's wives tried to hang on to her household idols, for instance, and you may also recall that part of Israel itself worshipped another "god" and got in a LOT of trouble for doing so, one that they made for themselves in the image of a "golden calf", at the foot of Mt. Sinai while Moses and God were on top ).

So, there is but one, true Divine Being who we refer to as "God" (as Scripture makes clear for us over and over again .. e.g. Deuteronomy 6:4, 4:39; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:4), the One Divine Creator of everyone and everything, YHWH, who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here's a short, interesting article/commentary (at the link below) about this with a short video attached (7 min long) that discusses Psalm 82:6 (and John 10:34) and how the word "elohim" or "gods" is used in both. The article text and the video text are identical, just FYI, so you can read, listen and/or watch, whatever suits your fancy, all in 7 minutes or less (it's hardly a thorough look at the topic, of course, but it does hit some of the most important points to understand, like most of the articles at the "Got Questions" website do )

~https://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - this topic, that of who the other "gods" that are mentioned in the Bible are (and whether or not any of them are real or truly Divine, like YHWH is), may be a topic worth broaching with your pastor!

That article does a fair job.
I agree with the article that "Yahweh is referred to as the Elohim above all elohim".

But let's be clear about the verse and why Jesus quotes it.
Jesus was not saying He was one of those gods that Yahweh sat in the midst of.
We know this because those gods were being admonished for not being just and were judging unjustly.
So the only "elohim" that Jesus could be in Psalms 82 is The Just One (ie. the Elohim above all elohim) who rightly judges the others because He has just told the crowd that He and the Father are one.
Jesus was definitely not saying that He was a mortal judge like other mortal judges because there were no mortal judges that were not a sinner in need of being justified by the Savior.

 

[Rella]

Yep.
If one takes the Isaiah verses you listed above in a rigid strict isolated sense then anyone else said to be a savior must be rejected.

John 14:6 is very clear.... from Jesus' own mouth.
NASB 1995
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Furthermore, we have John 1 saying that the Word that became flesh (ie. Jesus) was God.
And even if one wants to take the route of the JWs and say Jesus was "a" god, then you would have to reject Jesus if one takes the Isaiah verses you quoted above in a rigid strict isolated sense because you are to have no other god.

And one more reason to not take the Isaiah verses you quoted above in a rigid strict isolated sense is that other verses in scripture say there are other gods.

Psalms 82 ESV​

(1) A Psalm of Asaph. God [elohim] has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgment:​

Sorry, but God cannot sit in the midst of other gods if other gods do not exist.
Not to mention that it would be silly to command people to not worship other gods if other gods are an impossibility.

When one tries to take certain scripture verses in a rigid strict isolated sense then they are going to create contradictions with other isolated scripture verses.

 

[David1701]

How can it possibly border on polytheism that God counsels with other spirit beings that are supposed to do His bidding???

God does not counsel with anyone, since he has all knowledge and all wisdom. He does give permission for some actions by evil spirits (e.g. the devil tempting Job) and he commands them, but he has absolutely no need for their counsel.

 

[David1701]

...

Let me ask you this simple point of logic; how can a thing be WITH something and BE that same thing? To keep our passions in check, let's use different nouns. How can a postage stamp be with the sandwich and be the sandwich?

...

Your analogy is abysmal. You have chosen two things that are completely different, then you have asked how one could be the other, when it obviously could not.

Here is a far, far better analogy: how could one leaf of a clover be with the clover and be the clover, at the same time? It could be, because it is, by nature.

 

[Arial]

God does not counsel with anyone, since he has all knowledge and all wisdom. He does give permission for some actions by evil spirits (e.g. the devil tempting Job) and he commands them, but he has absolutely no need for their counsel.

New International Version
A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods":

New Living Translation
God presides over heaven’s court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:

English Standard Version
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Berean Standard Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:

King James Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Yes it is translated "council" not "counsel". Big difference. The NLV is an affront, as it interprets "gods", and I think wrongly. The heavenly beings do not judge the wicked, defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy. That is the position God has given to earthly "kings." At the time of the writing Israel was ruled by an earthly kings and judges. So the "gods" here would be human judges.

 

[Tambora]

God does not counsel with anyone, since he has all knowledge and all wisdom.

Scripture says He does.

he has absolutely no need for their counsel.

Having no need to doesn't mean He doesn't let them be involved in decision making.
Example:
1 Kings 22 ESV
(19) And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;
(20) and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.
(21) Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
(22) And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’

 

[Tambora]

John 14:6 is very clear.... from Jesus' own mouth.
NASB 1995
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Amen.

 

[David1701]

New International Version
A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods":

New Living Translation
God presides over heaven’s court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:

English Standard Version
God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Berean Standard Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God presides in the divine assembly; He renders judgment among the gods:

King James Bible
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Yes it is translated "council" not "counsel". Big difference. The NLV is an affront, as it interprets "gods", and I think wrongly. The heavenly beings do not judge the wicked, defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy. That is the position God has given to earthly "kings." At the time of the writing Israel was ruled by an earthly kings and judges. So the "gods" here would be human judges.

Yes, I believe that's the most likely interpretation.

 

[David1701]

Scripture says He does.


Having no need to doesn't mean He doesn't let them be involved in decision making.
Example:
1 Kings 22 ESV
(19) And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;
(20) and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.
(21) Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
(22) And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’

I thought of that passage as well; however, it's not a case of spirits being involved in decision-making; rather, it's God asking for a volunteer to entice Ahab (God, being omniscient, already knew which spirit would volunteer and what he would do). God then commanded the spirit to do as it had suggested. The decision-making was all God's.

It's also important to notice that this was an evil spirit (good angels do not lie), so it would never be involved in decision-making with the thrice holy God!

 

[Tambora]

I thought of that passage as well; however, it's not a case of spirits being involved in decision-making; rather, it's God asking for a volunteer to entice Ahab

Which is involving them in decision making.
If God did not want them involved then He wouldn't have even gathered them together for a council meeting.
God received suggestions from some of them and then decided to use the suggestion of the last one.

God then commanded the spirit to do as it had suggested.

Right, after others had made suggestions He used the suggestion of the last one.

The decision-making was all God's.

After He heard all the suggestions in the council meeting that God assembled.
There was a council meeting and ideas were kicked around by the council participants.
And as with any council there is a head-honcho that must make the final decision of which suggestion seems the most productive.

I don't know why God wanting to have a council to discuss problems and solutions with His created beings is so unsettling to some.
I don't see it as questioning God's sovereignty at all.
In fact it seems as though God likes involving His creation in that way with both spirit beings and mankind.

 

[David1701]

Which is involving them in decision making.
If God did not want them involved then He wouldn't have even gathered them together for a council meeting.
God received suggestions from some of them and then decided to use the suggestion of the last one.


Right, after others had made suggestions He used the suggestion of the last one.


After He heard all the suggestions in the council meeting that God assembled.
There was a council meeting and ideas were kicked around by the council participants.
And as with any council there is a head-honcho that must make the final decision of which suggestion seems the most productive.

I don't know why God wanting to have a council to discuss problems and solutions with His created beings is so unsettling to some.
I don't see it as questioning God's sovereignty at all.
In fact it seems as though God likes involving His creation in that way with both spirit beings and mankind.

God is omniscient, which means that he knows everything and he knows it all in advance. He also works all things according to the counsel of his own will. This means that when God asks a question, he is not looking to learn anything (he already knows and understands completely). Before asking for suggestions, God had already planned what he was going to do and by means of which spirit.

There is no divine council, except within the Godhead (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

There are a few highly dubious teachers who teach this "divine council" nonsense and a supposed pantheon of gods (Michael Heiser being one of the main ones). In doing so, they undermine God's sovereignty, his omniscience, monotheism and many scriptural passages. I've also found that these errors do not come alone. These teachers err in other areas as well.

Here's a link to a short expose of some of Heiser's teaching.

Expose of Michael Heiser's Teaching