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I chose God..Or God chose me...

Yet you just acknowledge them as scripture.
Yes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi
are all Scripture, but they are prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8),
and apart from their being explained in Scripture, they are subject to more than one interpretation, with no one's interpretation being authoritative, all being simply just personal interpretation,
the only rule being that to be correct, personal interpretation must be in agreement with what is authoritative to the church; i.e., apostolic teaching.
And where interpretation is not in agreement with apostolic teaching, it is Biblically erroneous interpretation, because God does not contradict his NT revelation.

What part of the difference between prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and authoritative apostolic teaching do you not understand?
 
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Yes, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi
are all Scripture, but they are prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8),
and apart from their being explained in Scripture, they are subject to more than one interpretation, with no one's interpretation being authoritative, all being simply just personal interpretation,
the only rule being that to be correct, personal interpretation must be in agreement with what is authoritative to the church; i.e., apostolic teaching.
And where interpretation is not in agreement with apostolic teaching, it is Biblically erroneous interpretation, because God does not contradict his NT revelation.

What part of the difference between prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and authoritative apostolic teaching do you not understand?
Are you insinuating that some scriptures are prophetic riddles to be dismissive?

The same scriptures that apostolic teachings comes from?
 
That kind of makes sense.

Jesus gave up His Spirit.
MATTHEW 27:50
KJ21
Jesus, when He had cried out again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
ASV
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.
AMP
And Jesus cried out again with a loud [agonized] voice, and gave up His spirit [voluntarily, sovereignly dismissing and releasing His spirit from His body in submission to His Father’s plan].
AMPC
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.
BRG
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
CSB
But Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and gave up his spirit.

Yes, I know/ understand this....with our spirit being dead in sin/ darkness/ alienated from God....this is where our saviour Jesus comes into play, so to speak.
Oh, I see to what you are referring.

However, that is spirit, not Spirit.
His immortal human spirit departed his body, which is human death.
He did not give up the Holy Spirit which remained with his divinity.
 
Are you insinuating that some scriptures are prophetic riddles to be dismissive?
All interpretations of prophetic riddles, which interpretations disagree with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, as in the interpretations you present, are to be dismissed, as all error is to be dismissed.
The same scriptures that apostolic teachings comes from?
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church comes from Jesus to the apostles, including Paul.
 
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Aside: @Ritajanice .... you're so polite, accommodating and humble ... thanks for tolerating us
Praise God for that Brother, it hasn’t always been that way, my mouth was a cesspit for many, many years, had to undo all that destructive verbal emotional abuse I was brought up in...Praise God for that as well...👍

It’s God’s Powerful LOVE, that’s been at work in me , boy has he had his work cut out , dealing with me,😂🤣....you know what....he’s the only one who has ever been able to handle me....I was even up until 4am on here ,discussing his word......there is NONE like our WONDERFUL God!!.....Amen!!
 
Are you a dispensationalist?
No ... I was at one time. I suppose Baptist Reformed would be the closest match.

Aside: I think one tends to be whatever set of doctrines one first encounters ... interesting how that works, though somewhat of a mystery to me especially when it comes to how/why one changes one mind.
 
It’s God’s Powerful LOVE, that’s been at work in me , boy has he had his work cut out , dealing with me,😂🤣
LOL ...
in some respects I am jealous ... great change in one disposition seems to me to be evidence (assurance) of God at work. My relationship with God has been no sensational, life changing, ah-ha moment as evidence.

you know what....he’s the only one who has ever been able to handle me....I was even up until 4am on here ,discussing his word......there is NONE like our WONDERFUL God!!.....Amen!!
Your joy in the Lord is a gift you bring to us ...thx
 
LOL ...
in some respects I am jealous ... great change in one disposition seems to me to be evidence (assurance) of God at work. My relationship with God has been no sensational, life changing, ah-ha moment as evidence.
It’s taken many years though Brother, for that change to take place, he’s working in you, the same as he works in everyone, you’re his child .....I didn’t even know he was working in me, until this past year.....he works in us all differently at different rates as well...it ain’t easy being a Born Again..it just gets easier as we learn and grow in him...and die to the self daily...that’s my opinion/ belief anyway.
 
No ... I was at one time.
I notice that you quoted Sperry Chafer.
I suppose Baptist Reformed would be the closest match.
That might be a good description of me. I love those Southern Baptists!
Aside: I think one tends to be whatever set of doctrines one first encounters ... interesting how that works, though somewhat of a mystery to me especially when it comes to how/why one changes one mind.
What else can one do until one studies the Scriptures for himself?

Dispensationalism affects more than the dispensationalist's eschatolgy. It alters his ecclesiology and Christology.
 
All interpretations of prophetic riddles, which interpretations disagree with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, as in the interpretations you present, are to be dismissed, as all error is to be dismissed.
You can only do that by rightly dividing the word of truth that seemingly opposes how you apply scripture to mean to be apostolic teaching. If you cannot do that, then you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
Apostolic teaching authoritative to the church comes from Jesus to the apostles, including Paul.
Yeah, but are you really espousing on apostolic teaching? I would have to say no, you are not. So we disagree.
 
You can only do that by rightly dividing the word of truth that seemingly opposes how you apply scripture to mean to be apostolic teaching. If you cannot do that, then you are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yeah, but are you really espousing on apostolic teaching? I would have to say no, you are not. So we disagree.
In my neck of the woods, the following apostolic writings of John, Paul and Matthew are apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate they are not apostolic.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, it is in error.
 
Back again @Carbon ..

So, God gave the OT saints this new heart and Spirit within?...he indwelled them did he?....so , why can’t I find that in the OT....like I can find it in the NT?

Is there scripture to say this?
But what are you looking for exactly? Are you looking for those exact words, "that God gave these OT saints a new heart and spirit within?"

I think we agree on scripture throughout it teaches there is only one salvation plan. We do see the OT animal sacrifices which only foreshadow leading up to the sacrifice of Christ. Now if there is only one salvation of God then it must also apply to those who were born before the cross. And the Bible is one cohesive book. And there are a lot of salvation passages in the OT, and they sound very NT in nature. Yet they were written hundreds of years before Christ.

“I, I am he
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
Isaiah 43:25

And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:34.


For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 8:12.

“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 10"16-17.

Did you notice what God said in the OT He also repeated in the NT?
God is speaking of His elect in ancient Israel, these in the OT were saved by the blood of Christ.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield;
the Lord bestows favor and honor.
No good thing does he withhold
from those who walk uprightly.
Ps 84:11.

But now for a brief moment favor has been shown by the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant and to give us a secure hold within his holy place, that our God may brighten our eyes and grant us a little reviving in our slavery. Ezra 9:8.


“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. Zech 12:10.


10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
1 Peter 1:10-12.

God reveals things fully in His own time, But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4.

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:4.

Just from these few scriptures can you find where the OT people were saved any different than the NT saints? We do read that the Holy Spirit was operational through the Tabernacle and Temple service but it was
. not the time for grace to be revealed, although it was operational during that time.

The method of salvation was no different for those of the OT. All saints of the OT and NT were indwelt by the Holy Spirit or they simply were not saved. And there is nothing written that the Holy Spirit only abode on them and not indwelt them.


If the Holy Spirit did not indwell, say, Abraham, then from what point did faith have to work from? If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person then this person is still spiritually dead and no spiritually dead person can have any faith towards God because they are spiritually dead.


For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:3. No unbeliever could ever be righteous without salvation.


Consider for a moment, Moses. And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” Exodus 33:17.
What? Moses found grace in God's sight and God knew him by name?
Look what John 10:14 says, do you see the parallel?
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

I hope this is enough to prove what I am saying. If not there is much more.
 
I notice that you quoted Sperry Chafer.
He was the first author of the first Systematic Theology book I read. I like his stuff. He had a very different version of the sermon on the mount. I didn't agree with it, but it did have a reasonable logic to it.

That might be a good description of me. I love those Southern Baptists!
I tend to love them. I sometimes wonder if the SBC is getting liberal. I'm not well informed on such things.

What else can one do until one studies the Scriptures for himself?
Agreed ... but I found that others could exegete much deeper than I, Systematic Theology books being a prime example.
We are all mislead to some degree. Study improves the deficit. *crosses fingers* LOL

The R.C.s have plenty of experts. It would be very difficult for someone who was initially exposed to their theology to come up with a seriously changed theology .... heck, people are so 'stupid' they can be convinced men can become women so what low probability is there that they change course in indoctrinated by the R.C.s (unless God intercedes)
 
In my neck of the woods, the following apostolic writings of John, Paul and Matthew are apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate they are not apostolic.

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (Jn 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Th 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Mt 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture is (occurs at the time of) the judgment:

the last day = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

(and the resurrection being in the last day with the judgment of the sheep and goats--all mankind,
thereby making only one resurrection. . .of all mankind).

If one's personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) does not locate the rapture with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time, that interpretation is not in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, it is in error.
I applied the last day with the scriptures I have used to say that there is an order to that resurrection since there are 3 groups of people as in 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 13:33 to be raised from the dead as that last day is applied respectively to each group/harvest in what last day they are raised in.
 
But what are you looking for exactly? Are you looking for those exact words, "that God gave these OT saints a new heart and spirit within?"

I think we agree on scripture throughout it teaches there is only one salvation plan. We do see the OT animal sacrifices which only foreshadow leading up to the sacrifice of Christ. Now if there is only one salvation of God then it must also apply to those who were born before the cross. And the Bible is one cohesive book. And there are a lot of salvation passages in the OT, and they sound very NT in nature. Yet they were written hundreds of years before Christ.

“I, I am he
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
Isaiah 43:25

And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:34.


For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 8:12.

“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 10"16-17.

Did you notice what God said in the OT He also repeated in the NT?
God is speaking of His elect in ancient Israel, these in the OT were saved by the blood of Christ.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield;
the Lord bestows favor and honor.
No good thing does he withhold
from those who walk uprightly.
Ps 84:11.

But now for a brief moment favor has been shown by the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant and to give us a secure hold within his holy place, that our God may brighten our eyes and grant us a little reviving in our slavery. Ezra 9:8.


“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn. Zech 12:10.


10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. 1 Peter 1:10-12.

God reveals things fully in His own time, But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4.

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love Eph 1:4.

Just from these few scriptures can you find where the OT people were saved any different than the NT saints? We do read that the Holy Spirit was operational through the Tabernacle and Temple service but it was
. not the time for grace to be revealed, although it was operational during that time.

The method of salvation was no different for those of the OT. All saints of the OT and NT were indwelt by the Holy Spirit or they simply were not saved. And there is nothing written that the Holy Spirit only abode on them and not indwelt them.


If the Holy Spirit did not indwell, say, Abraham, then from what point did faith have to work from? If the Holy Spirit does not indwell a person then this person is still spiritually dead and no spiritually dead person can have any faith towards God because they are spiritually dead.


For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3. No unbeliever could ever be righteous without salvation.


Consider for a moment, Moses. And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” Exodus 33:17.
What? Moses found grace in God's sight and God knew him by name?
Look what John 10:14 says, do you see the parallel?
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

I hope this is enough to prove what I am saying. If not there is much more.
Thanks for taking the time to explain, this has helped a lot...I think I was looking for those exact words...as you say.....I’m not going to get that answer....sometimes I find it hard to let go ...i chomp at the bitt....why I do it, I don’t know....thanks for all that scripture .....I’m learning...
 
He was the first author of the first Systematic Theology book I read. I like his stuff. He had a very different version of the sermon on the mount. I didn't agree with it, but it did have a reasonable logic to it.

I tend to love them. I sometimes wonder if the SBC is getting liberal. I'm not well informed on such things.
There's a contingent fighting for conservatism, but it's always a battle.
Agreed ... but I found that others could exegete much deeper than I, Systematic Theology books being a prime example.
We are all mislead to some degree. Study improves the deficit. *crosses fingers* LOL

The R.C.s have plenty of experts. It would be very difficult for someone who was initially exposed to their theology to come up with a seriously changed theology ....
Yes, and all their clergy are grounded in it, no shooting from the hip in theology.
They also have the only thought-through moral theology.
heck, people are so 'stupid' they can be convinced men can become women so what low probability is there that they change course in indoctrinated by the R.C.s (unless God intercedes).
Do you live in the piney woods?
 
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I applied the last day with the scriptures I have used to say that there is an order to that resurrection since there are 3 groups of people as in 3 harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 13:33 to be raised from the dead as that last day is applied respectively to each group/harvest in what last day they are raised in.
Nowhere does the NT present three different resurrections on different days, nor three groups.
Jesus presents two groups, the sheep and the goats, rising at the same time.
You are adding to apostolic teaching, which you have no authority to do.
 
There is so much controversy over these two testimonies from believers

I never chose God, he chose me...I never chose to be birthed in the Spirit.

Thoughts please?

Does the living word of God teach that we can choose to be birthed in the Spirit?
It is my position no human is able to judge for him/herself about his own experience. It may have seemed to us that we were choosing God when we converted from being non-Christian to be Christian but that's not what scripture states. Scripture repeatedly describes how we cannot rely on the perceptions of the sinful flesh and until a person is brought from life to death and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, all that person has is sinful flesh by which to measure his/her experience.

To submit EVERYTHING to the word of God necessarily means we submit ALL our own observations and experience to that same word. We are not the measure of God's word. God's word is the measure of us, and that includes every minute detail of our experience.

Jesus to Nic that unless a person was born anew from above s/he could not see the kingdom of God so it's illogical a non-believer could believe something he can't see and does not believe exists. If the example of Jesus and the disciples is relevant, then not a single one of them chose Jesus until after he had first chosen them.
 
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