I chose God..Or God chose me...

[Ritajanice]

Back again @Carbon ..

So, God gave the OT saints this new heart and Spirit within?...he indwelled them did he?....so , why can’t I find that in the OT....like I can find it in the NT?

Is there scripture to say this?

Just found this scripture, in the OT...maybe @Eleanor can help me understand it?

Deu 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Manfred]

God chose the nation of Israel, the Jews to obey follow and obey Him yet they failed.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rom 11:9 And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”

You are (knowingly or not) still denying God the glory.

Do you see that even in God choosing Israel, there is an elect who obtained what was being "searched" for.

The rest were hardened by God. A hard teaching to grasp.

 

[Manfred]

That was an act of their wills to disobey Him.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
Rom 11:9 And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever.”

An act of their wills?

The will of EVERY unregenerate person is opposed to the Spirit of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Thank you @Manfred for your input, I’m learning and I appreciate your posts/ scripture..

 

[Ritajanice]

Rita if I may share this with you. Getting caught up on election or predestination can choke young believers and even seasoned Christians because it is meat not milk. Getting the Gospel right must be the priority for every Christian. Are we justified by Faith Alone; faith and works; or by works alone? How is a sinner justified before a holy God?
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Luther in 1520: Justification by Faith Alone​

Howard Griffith
Professor of Systematic Theology
Reformed Theological Seminary, Washington D.C.
This was a lecture presented at Reformed Theological Seminary, Washington DC’s lecture series “Luther’s (Re)formative Years, 1517-1521,” in October 2017.

Introduction

When you meet someone you admire and begin to get to know them, it can be a thrilling experience. You begin to listen to them. You come to see the beauty of their character, their kindness, their courage, their joy, their passion, and that gives you joy. Living with Martin Luther over the last weeks has been that sort of experience for me. I have been trying to put my finger on what I love about him. I think it is the fullness of his joy as a Christian. Justification by faith alone was not merely a true doctrine to him. It was life itself. Brother Martin was an old friend to me, but he has become a new friend again. I hope, through these lectures, you will make a new friend as well.

By 1520, the year he wrote The Freedom of a Christian, Luther had become quite popular. When he challenged the practice of indulgences and when he debated John Eck, Luther’s concern was pastoral, what Robert Kolb calls the “consolation of sin ridden consciences.”[1] Christ alone is the savior, and he alone is the Lord of the Church. His authority is found in the Scripture alone. Luther’s writings were being circulated widely and read. But between 1517 and 1520, the leadership of the Church was not buying it. What the Church heard was Luther undercutting the Pope’s authority and upsetting church order.

Many people were reading Luther, and he used his popularity. In 1520, he wrote several treatises that expressed his theology and his program. The Treatise on Good Works answered the charge that he discouraged good works. The Open Letter to the Nobility of the German Nation asked the politically powerful to lessen the Pope’s usurpation of Christ’s power in the Church and his intruding into secular affairs. The Babylonian Captivity of the Church challenged the practice of withholding the cup from the laity and rejected the idea of the mass as a sacrifice. Luther said only baptism, penance, and “the bread” were truly sacraments. Marriage, confirmation, ordination, and extreme unction were not sacraments, because they lacked Christ’s command and did not promise forgiveness.

In July 1520, Pope Leo X warned Luther of 41 doctrinal errors and threatened him with excommunication. He had 60 days to recant. In November Luther published his positive explanation of the Christian life, The Freedom of a Christian. He dedicated it to the Pope with an open letter asking for peace. “[N]owadays, we are made so sensitive by the raving crowd of flatterers that we cry out that we are stung as soon as we meet with disapproval. When we cannot ward off the truth with any other pretext, we flee from it by ascribing it to a fierce temper, impatience, or immodesty. What is the good of salt if it does not bite?” (45).[2] He said in effect, “I am not criticizing you, but those who have attacked me in your name. You are like Daniel in the midst of lions.” He then defends his attacks on abuses. “All I wanted was peace, but if people attack my teaching, I will not be silent. Please intervene and give us a truce.” And closes with this: “my father Leo, … be not deceived by those who pretend that you are lord of the world, and allow no one to be a Christian unless he accepts your authority… These men are enemies, who seek to destroy your soul.” The apostles called themselves servants of the present Christ, not vicars of an absent Christ. (51) “Perhaps I am presumptuous in trying to instruct so exalted a person, from whom all should learn… [but] I know you are in a miserable situation, so that you are in need of even the slightest help of the least of your brothers. I am your friend and your most humble subject.” The Freedom of a Christian set out Luther’s view of the joy and glory of being a Christian. This is his statement of justification by faith alone. Let’s look at his little tract.

To be continued...

Thank you for your posts, @Ladodgers6 ,I have a lot to read..I understand quite a lot of what was being said, I surprised myself..

 

[Manfred]

How else could we receive the Spirit of Christ....?

You are correct.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

At the same time you have to consider the following:
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Abraham, an example of someone from the OT, the righteousness of Christ was counted to him because of his faith.

Abraham being justified by his faith, was indeed justified, but did he have the Spirit of Christ imputed at the time of his faith before Jesus "went away"
This is a good question that deserves a good response.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/did-old-testament-believers-possess-the-holy-spirit

From the article referenced by Carbon above, even the experts reflect, and Dr Derek Thomas concludes. (See specifically Psalm 51:11 which indicates that the Holy Spirit did indeed indwell David, and the indwelling can not be excluded with Abraham and other hero's of the faith.)

'THOMAS: The answer is yes and no.

I think if you’re asking the question, “How is a person under the old covenant saved?” then the answer has to be, “In precisely the same way as a person in the new covenant is saved: by the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, producing faith and repentance in a promised Christ that was seen in type and shadow.”

But there is Psalm 51:11: “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.”

So, yes, Pentecost is epochal. It’s a redemptively significant moment, a unique moment in redemptive history. So there’s something about the fullness of the Spirit and perhaps the experience of that fullness under the new covenant that is different from the old covenant.

But if the question is, “Were Old Testament saints indwelt by the Spirit?” I think I would have to say yes.'

 

[ChristB4us]

But what comes across is that you (and your dispensationalist brethren) have laid claim to that verse as your own, which then means it cannot be describe those who don't divide things the way you do.

To prove otherwise is to rightly divide the word of truth if I am not doing that "rightly".

Example: tongue speakers today try to hype another gospel for saved believers to seek after; that gospel of tongues. They apply Acts 19:1-7 as proof that believers do not always have the Holy Spirit for why they should seek that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

Acts 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve.

Now what is overlooked by those that err is that there are 3 kinds of disciples back in Paul's days.

Luke 5:33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
So there are the disciples of the Pharisees, the disciples of John the Baptist's, and the disciples of Jesus Christ's.
So when Paul came across these certain disciples, he did not know what kind but he believed they were disciples for why he had asked them about having received the holy Ghost since they had believed, thus assuming they were disciples of Jesus Christ.

But they never knew anything about the Holy Ghost, and so Paul had asked them of what water baptism they were under. John the Baptist's. So now Paul knew what kind of disciples they were. Because they were not believers in Hesus Christ, Paul told them about Whom it as John the Baptist was preaching about and then they obviously believed because afterwards, they were water baptized in Jesus's name & got saved.

So tongue speakers today cannot use that scripture reference in preaching that false calling as if believers may not always have the holy Ghost for why they hype saved believers to seek a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, because in Acts 19:1-7, those certain disciples were disciples of John the Baptist's and not disciples of Jesus Christ and so they were never believers in Jesus Christ until Paul told them about Him.

So do you agree that tongue speakers today cannot use Acts 19:1-7 for hyping another calling for saved believers to seek after by using that reference because by His grace & by His wisdom, I rightly divide the word of truth or do you believe that tongue speakers are right?

So as an example, for you to correct me by the scripture, you do not do that by ignoring it, but by addressing the scripture that I had applied if I did it wrong and testify to what that scripture is actually talking about.

That is the only way a discussion in proving all things by Him in the scripture can progress when we address scripture that opposes how the other side is applying other scripture to mean to prove they cannot be applying it rightly after all.

I say that @Eleanor 's application of the last day is to be done in respect to the order of the resurrection of Christ's the first fruits ( note plural of firstfruits thus the pre great tribulation rapture event when He comes as the Bridegroom to receive into Heaven ) and then they that be Christ's at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Then you have that 1000 year reign of Christ before Satan is loose from the pit for a small season as those remaining loyal to Christ is the last harvest before Satan is cast into the lake of fire & the Great White Throne Judgment commence & death is defeated forever.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

That is when the kingdom of heaven is leavened in the whole lump by that 3 measures of meal that was hid in that making of the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 13;33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

That is the shortest parable testifying to what makes up the kingdom of heaven as a whole. Until someone testifies otherwise, that is what I believe the Lord has taught me of what that parable is about and how it applies to that "last day" respectively to the order of the resurrection.

 

[Eleanor]

What’s the difference between being birthed in the Spirit.....and being regenerated?

How could God as he was, before Jesus gave up His Spirit at Pentecost..... birth someone in the OT?

My opinion and belief is...he couldn’t, why, because Jesus had to die, so that the Spirit of God could indwell his children permanently,...therefore in the OT, they weren’t indwelled permanently....how could they be?

That’s why I ask the question....what’s the difference between regenerated and being birthed in the Spirit?

What was the point of Pentecost....why did Jesus have to die?
Regeneration means...online source.
Spiritually, it means that God brings a person to new life (that they are "born again") from a previous state of separation from God and subjection to the decay of death (Ephesians 2:5).

2 Corinthians 5:21​

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New International Version​

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21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

We become the righteousness of God (the only righteousness there is) in Christ by his sanctifying work in us through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousess leading to holiness (Ro 6:16,19).

 

[Ritajanice]

We become the righteousness of God (the only righteousness there is) in Christ by his sanctifying work in us through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousess leading to holiness (Ro 6:16,19).

I like this summing up of obedience, I found online...it really spoke to my heart.

The secret of true obedience is a clear and close personal relationship with God. All our attempts to achieve full obedience will fail until we have access to His abiding fellowship. It is God's holy presence, consciously abiding with us, that keeps us from disobeying Him.

 

[Eleanor]

What does that mean exactly....they were regenerated......yet, not indwelt?

They had God's eternal life re-imparted to their immortal human spirits, and the intermittent operation of the Holy Spirit within them, but not the fullness of his indwelling--imparting knowledge and experience of Christ, enabling and empowering fellowship with God--until the fullness of the New Covenant.

As far as I know/ read, there was no indwelling, not until Pentecost, as Jesus had to give up His Spirit?

No, Jesus does not give up his Spirit. The presence of the divine being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not physically limited.

A Born Again is “ Birthed in the Spirit “.....that’s when the Holy Spirit takes up permanent residence, as it’s a “Living” Spiritual birth, that only God can do through the Spirit.....it’s God, again through the Spirit ,that opens up the heart for a believer to receive that new heart* spirit within.

The new birth is the re-imparting of God's divine eternal life with the immortal human spirit, which Adam lost in the Fall, which loss is the meaning of spiritual death. Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, it is the loss of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree as to the status of the regenerate. BUT...

Are you saying that once the Spirit has done his work it is now our work and he is no longer needed to sustain it? How can that be? The very nature of what we are become is by his continuing presence, I think. (Hence, my argument, back when, of the 'monergism in our continuing sanctification'.

The indwelling of the Spirit is the result of Christ.
The Spirit intermittently operated within the OT saints, but they did not have the fullness of his indwelling, which came with Christ in the NT.

 

[Ritajanice]

They had God's eternal life re-imparted to their immortal human spirits, and the intermittent operation of the Holy Spirit within them, but not the fullness of his indwelling--imparting knowledge and experience of Christ, enabling and empowering fellowship with God--until the fullness of the New Covenant.

That kind of makes sense.

No, Jesus does not give up his Spirit. The presence of the divine being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not physically limited.

Jesus gave up His Spirit.

MATTHEW 27:50

KJ21​

Jesus, when He had cried out again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

ASV​

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up his spirit.

AMP​

And Jesus cried out again with a loud [agonized] voice, and gave up His spirit [voluntarily, sovereignly dismissing and releasing His spirit from His body in submission to His Father’s plan].

AMPC​

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.

BRG​

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

CSB​

But Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and gave up his spirit.

The new birth is the re-imparting of God's divine eternal life with the immortal human spirit, which Adam lost in the Fall, which loss is the meaning of spiritual death. Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, it is the loss of God's divine eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

Yes, I know/ understand this....with our spirit being dead in sin/ darkness/ alienated from God....this is where our saviour Jesus comes into play, so to speak.

 

[Ritajanice]

The indwelling of the Spirit is the result of Christ.
The Spirit intermittently operated within the OT saints, but they did not have the fullness of his indwelling, which came with Christ in the NT.

Again, I kind of understand what is being said here..

The indwelling of the Spirit, is Through the death of Christ, he took the sin of mankind, he took my sin, therefore only through him can I be birthed in the Spirit and saved from eternal damnation....through Jesus, is how I become right with God.

Yet, I read from quite a few on this forum, that only the elect are saved?....hmmmm!!

 

[Eleanor]

In your point of view for why I ay you are not rightly dividing the word of truth because those scripture I cite, you cannot answer for them

The Scripture you cite is not apostolic teaching authoritative to the church,
it is your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) and subject to more than one interpretation,
my interpretation of those riddles being entirely different from yours, as well as enjoying agreement with apostolic teaching.

nor make them align with the scriptures you cite for that point of view.

You evidently are not aware of the difference between NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, and
personal interpretation of prophetic riddles which enjoys no authoirty whatsoever, even when not in disagreement with the NT.
You treat Scripture as though it were your personal set of Legos, to be employed in your Biblical playpen for constructing whatever edifice suits your fancy, with no boundaries nor measure for any truth or accuracy.

Bible 101: all Scripture is to be interpreted in the light of NT apostolic teaching which is authoritative to the church.

 

[Eleanor]

Does God choose us in order for us to choose Him?

No, God chooses us for his purposes which he will accomplish in us.

 

[Eleanor]

Okay.

You've been told. . .so there!

No one understands everything. So, why does Nicodemus have to?

 

[Eleanor]

I assume the same way we are regenerated now.

Premise 1: God chooses all the elect; both old and new testament
Premise 2: The 'elect' in both old and new testament were incapable of choosing God independent of God's influence (total depravity)
Conclusion ... God regenerated the elect of the O.T. and N.T.

The information about the impact of the Spirit after Pentecost as compared to before Pentecost is nominal.



Proposed meaning of INDWELT by the Spirit
Premise 1: Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
Premise 2: Hebrews 1:3b The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. AMP
Conclusion: Everyone is indwell by the Spirit

Technically, God being omnipresent, the Spirit is found in everything. “Indwelling” refers to being present to “benefit” the person the is indwelt. Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Collected Works of Lewis Sperry Chafer - Seven books in one. Jawbone Digital. Kindle Edition. By this definition the elect of both O.T. and N.T. were "indwelt" (for benefit)

.... end of my musings...

Are you a dispensationalist?

 

[Ritajanice]

No, God chooses us for his purposes which he will accomplish in us.

Most definitely....Amen!

 

[Eleanor]

Just found this scripture, in the OT...maybe @Eleanor can help me understand it?

Deu 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

CIrcumcise the heart = separation from sin.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Scripture you cite is not apostolic teaching authoritative to the church

Yet you just acknowledge them as scripture.