I abandoned my faith, maybe i have exchanged my faith

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's why we say that salvation is entirely by grace.

I say the exact same thing.

Not by any decision of fallen man, who is incapable of pleasing God.

did the tax collector please God when he got on his knees

I never said anything about a split second. God does what he does, not by our progression of time or thought. Whether it is a split second or a life-long activity is irrelevant to it's logical necessity. Fallen man, dead in sin, is unable to please God, or to do anything to effect his salvation. It is all by God's doing. Man cannot add to what God does, cannot improve, cannot fill, cannot do anything spiritually real apart from Christ.

you are different than other reformed believers I have spoken to then.

who all say it all happens in a second

I can only go by what I have been told. if you believe different, share to me what you believe..

 

[Arial]

sir

For the second or third time---I am not a sir.

Jesus spoke to nicodemus in John 3.

why are you going to a different conversation?

I do not have to explain why or how. The fact is. they were all given the message of salvation. And some believed and were saved. some did not and remained condemned

That is from post #63 of this thread, and I am pointing out that Jesus did explain why some believe and some don't.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

For the second or third time---I am not a sir.


That is from post #63 of this thread, and I am pointing out that Jesus did explain why some believe and some don't.

your explaining from your point of view

I disagree with this point of view. and do not feel you have made a case that would make me repent of my thinking

I just take what Jesus said in kind

I take the story of Moses and the serpent. and Jesus words in saying in the same way he will be lifted up so that......

sorry the lion you have as your avatar would be a male lion.. so I forget..I will try to remember please forgive me

 

[makesends]

John 3:
3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Can you see the kingdom of God unless you are born again?

Obviously, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God. Why do you ask?

 

[makesends]

I say the exact same thing.

Yes, you say it. But you also say that it is a result of, among what things God does, something that you must do. Thus, not entirely of grace.

did the tax collector please God when he got on his knees

you are different than other reformed believers I have spoken to then.

who all say it all happens in a second

I can only go by what I have been told. if you believe different, share to me what you believe..

I don't actually identify as Reformed. Calvinist, either. But most of what they believe, I believe, but I think of some things differently. I consider myself logic-bound to the implications of God's omnipotence. For example, I can't present a complete ordo salutis, as so many things, to me, are intricately bound to the rest as to be, even logically, simultaneous. Causally, I agree with the fact of the utter necessity of regeneration before anyone can do anything truly good. Also causally, I see beautiful reality in the fact that the Spirit of God is the absolute source of all good from within myself. Thus, repentance, love for Christ and desire for his fellowship, submission and obedience —not only generally, as in 'Sanctification'— but in every particular, is a direct result of the work of the Spirit of God —not only in motivation and ability to do these things, but in the very doing of them. "Not I, but Christ in me."

I believe in God's utter causation and meticulous control of every fact, substance, principle and all reality, from "the whole business" to the most miniscule and seemingly unimportant or irrelevant. I consider it possible, for example, that if science could ever find the smallest particle or substance of matter and force, that it would be something "of" him that all matter and force are built of—perhaps something very physical, such as "Love"— and not that the universe is him, nor that he is at all comprised of the universe, (because, after all, mathematically, what is taken from infinity does not reduce infinity).

(This has huge implications to such biblical themes as "restoring all things" to himself, and to the philosophical/theological attributes of God, and to ideas such as how God can "love the whole world" and be intimately involved with everything, yet plan from the beginning to do away with some of it. It even has implications to scientific principles, such as the Conservation of Energy.)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Obviously, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God. Why do you ask?

so then it is basically an imperative. If it is not done. you will not see the kingdom of God.

now one can not make themselves born again. So something must happen. Jesus explains in great detail what that something is.. Including using an OT event to bring more light to the situation (Nicodemus being an teacher of OT scripture)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, you say it. But you also say that it is a result of, among what things God does, something that you must do. Thus, not entirely of grace.

Paul says otherwise.

I was saved by grave THROUGH FAITH.. and not of myself..

God gave me something to trust. I did not give myself any reason toi trust.

again, The tax collector did not save himself by calling out for Gods mercy.

I don't actually identify as Reformed. Calvinist, either. But most of what they believe, I believe, but I think of some things differently. I consider myself logic-bound to the implications of God's omnipotence. For example, I can't present a complete ordo salutis, as so many things, to me, are intricately bound to the rest as to be, even logically, simultaneous. Causally, I agree with the fact of the utter necessity of regeneration before anyone can do anything truly good. Also causally, I see beautiful reality in the fact that the Spirit of God is the absolute source of all good from within myself. Thus, repentance, love for Christ and desire for his fellowship, submission and obedience —not only generally, as in 'Sanctification'— but in every particular, is a direct result of the work of the Spirit of God —not only in motivation and ability to do these things, but in the very doing of them. "Not I, but Christ in me."

I believe the same thing

What separates us is you think we need regenerated first.

I believe God brings us to faith first.

Faith first in the gospel.

faith second in every day life..

as we take steps of faith. God continues to prove himself faithful. and the closer we get to him.

I believe in God's utter causation and meticulous control of every fact, substance, principle and all reality, from "the whole business" to the most miniscule and seemingly unimportant or irrelevant. I consider it possible, for example, that if science could ever find the smallest particle or substance of matter and force, that it would be something "of" him that all matter and force are built of—perhaps something very physical, such as "Love"— and not that the universe is him, nor that he is at all comprised of the universe, (because, after all, mathematically, what is taken from infinity does not reduce infinity).

i agree in part.

the issue I have is what do we tell a person who asks. why does God allow evil to go on so freely. Why does he not put a stop to it. why does he allow the suffering of people at the hands of evil men and women?

what answer do we give them?

(This has huge implications to such biblical themes as "restoring all things" to himself, and to the philosophical/theological attributes of God, and to ideas such as how God can "love the whole world" and be intimately involved with everything, yet plan from the beginning to do away with some of it. It even has implications to scientific principles, such as the Conservation of Energy.)

what do you mean by do away with some of it? want to understand

 

[prism]

did he submit to God?

Jesus said he went home justified.

I claim he did not submit to God. he cried out for Gods mercy

so saying one must submit to God is a misnomer..

I don't recall saying he submitted to God, but he did submit to the Gospel message recognizing 'all have sinned, including himself and thus in need of a Savior'.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't recall saying he submitted to God, but he did submit to the Gospel message recognizing 'all have sinned, including himself and thus in need of a Savior'.

which romans 1 says we all know. we are all sinners and deserving of judgment.

As I read it. It looks like a man calling out to God. not even sure God will hear or answer..

I sadly went through this myself..

 

[prism]

As I read it. It looks like a man calling out to God. not even sure God will hear or answer..

Are you saying the publican wasn't sure that God would hear or answer?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you saying the publican wasn't sure that God would hear or answer?

You tell me

He cried out. God have mercy on me..

I actually do not think we can know by what was said, but it may be inferred.

 

[prism]

You tell me

He cried out. God have mercy on me..

I actually do not think we can know by what was said, but it may be inferred.

How could he have been declared justified if God didn't hear him?
Even though it was a parable, it involved a real situation that we may learn from it.

Luke 18:13-14 KJV
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[makesends]

I believe the same thing

What separates us is you think we need regenerated first.

I believe God brings us to faith first.

Faith first in the gospel.

faith second in every day life..

as we take steps of faith. God continues to prove himself faithful. and the closer we get to him.

"Regenerated" is being born again. It is a complete change inside one's nature, done by God alone, by what one might call "installing" the Spirit of God permanently within one. The rebirth is not, as you quoted Ephesians, by anything but the grace of God. THAT —the Spirit of God— is where faith is generated. If you must order it logically, the Spirit taking up permanent dwelling within produces all the rest— faith, etc. But they are simultaneous, as far as time sequence. The one doesn't happen without the other, and all of it FOR SURE —not by the silly choices of humans, nor even as a result of the changing desires of humans.

i agree in part.

the issue I have is what do we tell a person who asks. why does God allow evil to go on so freely. Why does he not put a stop to it. why does he allow the suffering of people at the hands of evil men and women?

what answer do we give them?

We tell them the truth. "Apart from me you can do nothing." "You must be born again." God is first cause, and he has a reason for absolutely everything that comes about, to include one's desire for God and for goodness. This life is about GOD, not us. THAT is where the Gospel begins. Platitudes don't do the job. And the Pelagian gospel provides those who have cried out to God enough times, no comfort.

Reformed Theology, far from eliminating the need for the Gospel, provides the Gospel that missionary kids (like me) and preachers' kids need to hear. I don't even know how many I knew and grew up with that abandoned Christianity for its vapid, useless, notion that God came here to help us have a good life or "he has a wonderful plan for your life" and become sinless or whatever other stupid nuance each group has. We've seen it all, and the hypocrisy and unbiblical humanocentrism behind it all. But the worst of it is we see in OURSELVES the depravity that makes our "salvation decision" feel like a sick joke. If Heaven depends on the sincerity of a missionary kid's "decision for Christ", it won't happen.

what do you mean by do away with some of it? want to understand

Some things that God has made, whose very existence depends on his continued upholding of it/them, will be destroyed.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How could he have been declared justified if God didn't hear him?

did I say God did not hear him?

Even though it was a parable, it involved a real situation that we may learn from it.

Amen 100%

Luke 18:13-14 KJV
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Yes. The tax collector humbled himself. while the pharisee pumped his chest. and refuse to acknowledge he was guilty.. Her thought he kept the law and because he did, he was right with God

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Regenerated" is being born again.

Yes

Because we are dead in sin.

we who were dead in trespasses and sin, he has raised us. For by Grace you have been saved through faith

It is a complete change inside one's nature, done by God alone, by what one might call "installing" the Spirit of God permanently within one. The rebirth is not, as you quoted Ephesians, by anything but the grace of God. THAT —the Spirit of God— is where faith is generated. If you must order it logically, the Spirit taking up permanent dwelling within produces all the rest— faith, etc. But they are simultaneous, as far as time sequence. The one doesn't happen without the other, and all of it FOR SURE —not by the silly choices of humans, nor even as a result of the changing desires of humans.

From a reformed perspective I understand youi believe this

to me, It is one second I was dead in sin, the next second I was justified forgiven of all sin. and because it is, i was regenerated.

We tell them the truth. "Apart from me you can do nothing." "You must be born again."

Amen 100%

God is first cause, and he has a reason for absolutely everything that comes about, to include one's desire for God and for goodness. This life is about GOD, not us. THAT is where the Gospel begins. Platitudes don't do the job. And the Pelagian gospel provides those who have cried out to God enough times, no comfort.

Amen 100%

I have said multiple times I did not will myself to heaven. "not by the will of the flesh" as John said.

God did the work of drawing me. and bringing me to my knees you could say.

No human without the work of God would become like the tax collector.

we would either reject God outright. or be as the religious pharisee thinking we earn our salvation by our deeds.

Reformed Theology, far from eliminating the need for the Gospel, provides the Gospel that missionary kids (like me) and preachers' kids need to hear.

I disagree.. There is a flaw in the gospel.. especially how it relates to the lost.. And how it portrays a God who states he is loving

I don't even know how many I knew and grew up with that abandoned Christianity for its vapid, useless, notion that God came here to help us have a good life
or "he has a wonderful plan for your life" and become sinless or whatever other stupid nuance each group has. We've seen it all,

God never promised anyone a good life. He promised they would have suffering and tribulation.. John said if we claim to have no sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.

The reformed church is not the only one who teaches that God does not promise health and wealth (sadly. I know some Baptist pastors who taught this.. I left their church)

this is no worse than churches who teach we are initially saved by grace. but must perfect with works.

If you look at anyone who teaches any kind of works based gospel. they all believe salvation can be lost. they fit the pharisee model.

the rest of us fit the tax collector model.

again, reformed theology is not the only church who teaches this grace based salvation

and the hypocrisy and unbiblical humanocentrism behind it all. But the worst of it is we see in OURSELVES the depravity that makes our "salvation decision" feel like a sick joke.

the fact that God does not give all people the opportunity to be saved. That he refuses to give all mankind, since all have sinned and no one has any claim to be righteous, the same possibility considering he calls himself a God of love and mercy and patient. to me is a sick joke.

No one claims we can come up with our own faith. so why do people keep accusing them of this?

If Heaven depends on the sincerity of a missionary kid's "decision for Christ", it won't happen.

Some things that God has made, whose very existence depends on his continued upholding of it/them, will be destroyed.

I am not even sure what you mean here

"The gospel of repentance and forgiveness of sin will be preached to the whole world" - Jesus

Hell can not withstand the church. the gates of hell will not keep God's church back from going into the world and being used by God to help others find the hope in which we found.

Gods church is the body of Christ. it is not a denomination or a doctrine. it consists of all who have been baptized into him (spirit baptism not water) The reformed church I do believe is part of that family. But it is not the only church which belongs

I do not believe there is a perfect church, I believe all of them have flaws.. and some of them have views I can not agree with. as I know I have views others do not agree with. it does not make them or me outsiders.. Unless the gospel is wrong..





God gets the credit. and his plan will not fail.