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How old is the earth?

What I presented supported and didn't 'disprove' the Creation account.

I was simply cautioning people about carbon dating of objects pre-flood and post flood until the C14/C12 ration was reestablished.

Do you think the carbon ration would remain the same pre and post flood?
No, but it's not just 'amount', it's measurable half life.. rate of decay. But yeah, what you are saying actually does track, because if they equate "amount" to "decay", as you say there would have been less pre Flood period, not the same amount as after Flood.. so actually, it would mean Young Earth, not Old.
*Took me a minute, but yes.. I agree with you. Actually, decent hypothesis!
 
Well, I'm not going to read all these books this afternoon.

You: Cite your source!

Me: Okay, here are my best sources.

You: I'm not reading all that. Condense it for me.

Evidently, you have homework to do. You aren't familiar with this aspect of Reformed theology and that's okay, but I'm not doing your homework for you. (If you want to start with just one book, I would recommend Horton.) My creationist view presupposes and is informed by a strict Reformed covenant theology, which is a subject for a different debate.

To further help you with this distinction, I would recommend that you learn about and understand something called a redemptive-historical hermeneutic. Scripture is no bare history of God's people nor moral lessons with personal applicability. A redemptive-historical hermeneutic interprets what happened, from Eden onwards, in terms of what it means in the overarching Christ-centered story of God's redeeming work. It treats all of scripture—both Old and New Testaments—as a unified narrative centered on God's plan of redemption through Jesus Christ in a covenant framework, progressively revealing how Christ is—and always has been—the fulfillment of God's every promise, the first of which was uttered in Eden, rather than merely presenting historical information or moral examples to imitate. The Bible from cover to cover reveals redemptive history.


I should have put "theoretical evidence" in quotations. You missed the nuance. My bad.

It is "theoretical" because they extrapolate a "theorem" from a "hypothetical" half-life rate of decay of radiocarbon. It's a hypothesis, not "evidence."

Evidently, you have more homework to do.

The half-life of carbon-14 is not a hypothesis but an empirical measurement, directly observed for decades under laboratory conditions by counting the decay events of known quantities of carbon-14 using high-precision instruments. Over the last 70 years, its value has been repeatedly confirmed and cross-validated by multiple independent lines of evidence—tree rings, lake varves, speleothems, corals, and ice-core beryllium-10—all of which converge in the internationally curated IntCal20 calibration curve.

(And a half‑life of 5,730 years is short enough that you can watch the activity drop measurably in a matter of months; you don't need to wait almost six millennia to confirm it.)

The decay rate is empirical evidence. The theory is the quantum mechanics that explains why unstable nuclei decay at a constant probability per unit time—namely, quantum tunneling and the mathematical structure of time-dependent wavefunctions in unstable systems. The observed half-life plugs into the theory; it is not deduced from it. Calling the measured constant "hypothetical" reverses the actual order—first we observe (evidence), then we devise explanations (theory) for what we observe.


Do we measure elemental carbon? If not, that's moot.

It was not moot at that point of the conversation. You had invoked something called "theoretical evidence" and pointed to "carbon" as an example. "How long does carbon exist in the form of measurable carbon?" you asked. I had no idea what you were talking about; it could have been ¹²C, ¹³C, or ¹⁴C. (Yes, we measure stable carbon—obviously. How do you think we get the ¹⁴C/¹²C ratio? Counting atoms.)


So, they keep moving the goalposts on radiocarbon. A few decades ago it was 20k years, then 25k and 30k, now I read the consensus is 50k, and you cite 60k... sooo, I figure in a few years we'll be up to 4 billion, just keep at it! Radiocarbon dating.. "safe and effective"! 😄

More homework would help here, too.

Early radiocarbon dating from the 1940s to the 1960s could only measure decay events (beta counting), which required gram-sized samples and couldn't detect anything older than 20ka to 30ka years. That was simply a limit on our detectors. With accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) from the 1970s onward, scientists were able to measure much smaller samples and detect ¹⁴C/¹²C ratios down to parts per quadrillion. That extended the usable range out to 60ka years, where it has held steady for decades.

Curiously, Answers in Genesis puts the range at 80ka, for some reason (which they don't provide):

Scientists now use a device called an "Accelerator Mass Spectrometer" (AMS) to determine the ratio of ¹⁴C to ¹²C, which increases the assumed accuracy to about 80,000 years.

-- Mike Riddle, "Doesn't Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible?" in The New Answers Book 1: Over 25 Questions on Creation/Evolution and the Bible, ed. Ken Ham (Master Books, 2006), 80.
 
My Bible tells me Eve was the mother of all humans.

No, your interpretation tells you that.

Your Bible says that Eve was "the mother of all the living" (אֵֽם כָּל־חָֽי׃, 'ēm kol-ḥay). And you interpret that as meaning biologically.

But given the immediate and surrounding context, that interpretation doesn't have a lot of support.

I see it in terms of divine promise, referring to all those who will receive covenantal life through the promised seed (wherein life and death are defined in terms of covenantal communion with God)—a view which does enjoy a great deal of support, particularly in the immediate and surrounding context. (It's how Adam and Eve died in the day they ate of the tree, despite continuing to live biologically.)


If evolution brought about humans, rather than special creation, then Eve wasn't the mother of all.

In my view, which sees life and death defined in covenantal terms, that does not follow. Even if she is specially created de novo by God in a world already populated by humans, she is still the one through whom the promised seed will come and is therefore the mother of all the living.
 
You neglected to explain why. Yes, an evolutionary origin for the human species is incompatible with a young-earth creationist interpretation of Genesis 1–3, but that's not the contrast I highlighted. Remember, Adam and Eve being specially created de novo by God doesn't somehow deny an evolutionary origin for humans. As Swamidass has shown, humans could have been around for hundreds of thousands of years by the time God decided to form Adam from the dust and Eve from his rib. Affirming the latter is not a denial of the former.


This isn’t a topic I’m especially well-versed in, but I’ll offer where I currently stand.

I don’t believe in evolution in the sense that humans descended from apes. I say that with confidence because I simply don’t see that framework reflected in Scripture. Humanity isn’t an accident of nature—we are a special creation, made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). That’s foundational.

That said, I’m not a Young Earth Creationist either. I believe the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) can, in some contexts, refer to an age or an undefined period of time. And it’s at least conceivable that in a low-entropy environment—where time operates differently, such as what we observe around singularities—each “day” of creation might have spanned vast epochs. If that were the case, the Earth teeming with life early on would be expected rather than problematic.

In that same line of curiosity, I’ve sometimes wondered whether Adam and Eve were not necessarily the first biological humans on Earth, but rather the first covenantal representatives—the first set apart by God in a unique way. Scripture can use the term “man” (adam) in different ways, and while I’m not dogmatic about that possibility, I think it’s worth exploring how our theological framework might accommodate both Scripture’s covenantal focus and natural evidence, without reducing Adam to myth or allegory.

The serpent in Genesis, of course, was real and spoke, and the events in the garden are historical in nature—this isn’t metaphor. Yet I recognize Scripture’s main purpose is not to serve as a scientific manual, but a redemptive revelation. Its authority lies in what it reveals about God, man, sin, and salvation.

In short, I reject Darwinian evolution and stand firm on the uniqueness of God's people. But I also think it’s healthy to explore questions—respectfully and reverently—about how Scripture and the created order interrelate, especially on matters that Scripture doesn’t lay out in detail.
 
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I do not believe in evolution, as I was not evolved from apes,

[This was the original quote, but the subsequent edit still says the same thing.]

Humans are taxonomically classified within the family Hominidae (i.e., great apes), along with orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and bonobos. Put in other words: We did not evolve from apes, we are evolved apes.

But that's just taxonomy. It is not remarkable. More importantly, it is not our identity, it's not who we are. Our identity is determined by our creator who chose us as his image-bearers. That is our identity, that is the take-home message—and that ought to be the real scandal. But we callously take it for granted, almost as if we're entitled to this identity, like it is not a shocking gift of extraordinary grace.


But in the same breath—and it's an odd thing to say, perhaps—I think we should consider at least the possibility that Adam and Eve were not the first people, ...

[This was the original quote, but the subsequent edit still says the same thing.]

That is the key issue on which everything hangs. If Adam and Eve are not the first humans, all conflicts and contradictions evaporate. And there is not a single doctrine in all of Christian theological orthodoxy that requires Adam and Eve to be the first humans. Absolutely nothing changes, even in Reformed theology, if there were humans around for hundreds of thousands of years before Adam.
 
Our identity is determined by our creator who chose us as his image-bearers. That is our identity, that is the take-home message—and that ought to be the real scandal. But we callously take it for granted, almost as if we're entitled to this identity, like it is not a shocking gift of extraordinary grace.

Very true. Amen. May we never take the gifts of God in vain, nor take His Name without reverence and humility before the One who called us.

That is the key issue on which everything hangs. If Adam and Eve are not the first humans, all conflicts and contradictions evaporate. And there is not a single doctrine in all of Christian theological orthodoxy that requires Adam and Eve to be the first humans. Absolutely nothing changes, even in Reformed theology, if there were humans around for hundreds of thousands of years before Adam.

It makes the most logical sense and seems to my mind anyway, most in line with Scripture.
 
This isn’t a topic I’m especially well-versed in, but I’ll offer where I currently stand.

I don’t believe in evolution in the sense that humans descended from apes. I say that with confidence because I simply don’t see that framework reflected in Scripture. Humanity isn’t an accident of nature—we are a special creation, made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). That’s foundational.

That said, I’m not a Young Earth Creationist either. I believe the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) can, in some contexts, refer to an age or an undefined period of time. And it’s at least conceivable that in a low-entropy environment—where time operates differently, such as what we observe around singularities—each “day” of creation might have spanned vast epochs. If that were the case, the Earth teeming with life early on would be expected rather than problematic.

In that same line of curiosity, I’ve sometimes wondered whether Adam and Eve were not necessarily the first biological humans on Earth, but rather the first covenantal representatives—the first set apart by God in a unique way. Scripture can use the term “man” (adam) in different ways, and while I’m not dogmatic about that possibility, I think it’s worth exploring how our theological framework might accommodate both Scripture’s covenantal focus and natural evidence, without reducing Adam to myth or allegory.

The serpent in Genesis, of course, was real and spoke, and the events in the garden are historical in nature—this isn’t metaphor. Yet I recognize Scripture’s main purpose is not to serve as a scientific manual, but a redemptive revelation. Its authority lies in what it reveals about God, man, sin, and salvation.

In short, I reject Darwinian evolution and stand firm on the uniqueness of God's people. But I also think it’s healthy to explore questions—respectfully and reverently—about how Scripture and the created order interrelate, especially on matters that Scripture doesn’t lay out in detail.
I believe you are spot on with this.

When God made man in their image in Gen 1 he made them male and female, and charged them with keeping the whole earth.

26 let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

But when God made Adam in Gen 2 he made him, then tried to find him a helpmeet from the animals before he made Eve.

7Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.

( NOT THE WHOLE EARTH)

18Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”

20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.

22 The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

Now Adam and Eve were given the idyllic Garden of Eden to live. First man had to take care of the whole earth.

Just my opinion. As to the age of things... I'll wait on that.
 
No, your interpretation tells you that.
That's what the bible presents. Continuity of life through childbirth...with Eve at the beginning.
Your Bible says that Eve was "the mother of all the living" (אֵֽם כָּל־חָֽי׃, 'ēm kol-ḥay). And you interpret that as meaning biologically.
You would translate it....only.....the mother of all saved.
But given the immediate and surrounding context, that interpretation doesn't have a lot of support.

I see it in terms of divine promise, referring to all those who will receive covenantal life through the promised seed (wherein life and death are defined in terms of covenantal communion with God)—a view which does enjoy a great deal of support, particularly in the immediate and surrounding context. (It's how Adam and Eve died in the day they ate of the tree, despite continuing to live biologically.)

Are you saying there are poeple back in those days that were not related to Adam and Eve?
In my view, which sees life and death defined in covenantal terms, that does not follow. Even if she is specially created de novo by God in a world already populated by humans, she is still the one through whom the promised seed will come and is therefore the mother of all the living.
The bible doesn't teach the world was populated. Writing between the lines and specualtion is required for that concept.
 
That is the key issue on which everything hangs. If Adam and Eve are not the first humans, all conflicts and contradictions evaporate. And there is not a single doctrine in all of Christian theological orthodoxy that requires Adam and Eve to be the first humans. Absolutely nothing changes, even in Reformed theology, if there were humans around for hundreds of thousands of years before Adam.
That would mean those humans not of Adam and Eves progeny would not need....life through Eve's seed.
 
That said, I’m not a Young Earth Creationist either. I believe the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) can, in some contexts, refer to an age or an undefined period of time. And it’s at least conceivable that in a low-entropy environment—where time operates differently, such as what we observe around singularities—each “day” of creation might have spanned vast epochs. If that were the case, the Earth teeming with life early on would be expected rather than problematic.
You are right...YOM...can mean an age of undefined time.

BUT....Genesis does the following....It brackets days with evening and morning....which define the length. It basically tells you days are, well, uh, days.
What this means is your next step is to take evening and morning and assign a non-typical application to the words. Some how stretch out evening and morning to mean long periods of time.

This would involve 3 changes. 3 stretching of time....stretching of days (yom) and stretching of the identifying portions of the day called evening and morning.

Keep in mind God also numbered the day...6 days of creation and 1 day of rest.
In the ten commandments we see this literal pattern given to man... 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

Why not believe the bible?

Was Jesus in the tomb for 3 eons?
 
You would translate it....only.....the mother of all saved.

Incorrect. Since I expressed very clearly how I translate and interpret it, there is no need for this kind of gross distortion.


Are you saying there [were] people back in those days [who] were not related to Adam and Eve?

Yes—particularly the countless millions who lived and died before Adam and Eve existed.


The Bible doesn't teach that the world was populated.

It doesn't teach it, but it does indicate it. The Bible also doesn't teach that the population of Ur of the Chaldeans at the time of Terah and Abram was roughly 250,000 people, but its narrative is consistent with that.

The story about Cain, as you know, is the clearest example of the Bible indicating a populated world. He was driven from the land of Eden after murdering his brother, heading east to the land of Nod where he found a wife and had a family. In case someone misses it, he is already driven to the land of Nod before Seth is born to Adam and Eve, much less their other children.

And there is no hint of a massive gap between Cain's exile and his marriage. Any suggestion that he was alone in Nod for 40 or 50 years waiting for Adam and Eve to have a daughter, marry her, and raise enough children to help him build a city is not supported by the text itself. There is no hint of a decades-long bachelorhood. Instead, the sequence flows uninterrupted.

The burden of proof is shouldered by those who suggest a gap of decades between Cain's departure and his marriage, because the natural reading of the Hebrew verb tense wayyiqtol (the waw-consecutive imperfect) presents a sequence of past events happening one after another, usually closely following each other chronologically.

The view that I hold, on the other hand, is already consistent with the text as written.


That would mean those humans not of Adam and Eves progeny would not need....life through Eve's seed.

Exactly how does that follow?
 
Incorrect. Since I expressed very clearly how I translate and interpret it, there is no need for this kind of gross distortion.

Interesting....considering nobody interprets it the way you do...all the other people have gross distortions?
Yes—particularly the countless millions who lived and died before Adam and Eve existed.
There was no one prior to Adam and Eve living on earth. No where does the bible teach this.
It doesn't teach it, but it does indicate it. The Bible also doesn't teach that the population of Ur of the Chaldeans at the time of Terah and Abram was roughly 250,000 people, but its narrative is consistent with that.
That has no bearing on a pre-Adamic population.
The story about Cain, as you know, is the clearest example of the Bible indicating a populated world. He was driven from the land of Eden after murdering his brother, heading east to the land of Nod where he found a wife and had a family. In case someone misses it, he is already driven to the land of Nod before Seth is born to Adam and Eve, much less their other children.

And there is no hint of a massive gap between Cain's exile and his marriage. Any suggestion that he was alone in Nod for 40 or 50 years waiting for Adam and Eve to have a daughter, marry her, and raise enough children to help him build a city is not supported by the text itself. There is no hint of a decades-long bachelorhood. Instead, the sequence flows uninterrupted.
The simple example....Cain married one of his sisters..or another female from Adam and Eves progeny.

What you are doing is speculating.
The burden of proof is shouldered by those who suggest a gap of decades between Cain's departure and his marriage, because the natural reading of the Hebrew verb tense wayyiqtol (the waw-consecutive imperfect) presents a sequence of past events happening one after another, usually closely following each other chronologically.

The view that I hold, on the other hand, is already consistent with the text as written.
Nope.
1st Cor 15:47 tells us.....The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.
Eve the mother of all was taken from the first man.
Exactly how does that follow?
They didn't fall and would not Adams sin nature.
 
@CrowCross - it's probably best to stick with @John Bauer for debate on the topic, he's certainly more familiar with the topic than I am.
To be honest I'm not debating you. I'm edifying you to what Genesis says.

Most people listen to "mans" science and believe the earth is billions of years old then filter their bible through mans science. Their way out is to say each day was an "eon".

The dinosaurs don't point to an old earth but rather point to a bunch of animals buried during the flood of Noah. Humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time.
 
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You finally agree that the universe was created on day 1. Finally!
I don't see where I admitted to that.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is simply an overview of what happened during that process.
 
Interesting....considering nobody interprets it the way you do...all the other people have gross distortions?

He's certainly not the only one! It's not like he's out on the crazy ledge, he's got a perfectly reasonable understanding of Scripture that is shared by many as it's informed by Scripture.
 
I don't see where I admitted to that.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is simply an overview of what happened during that process.
Guess you didn't, I was just hoping that's what you meant. :)
 
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