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HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?

There is no mention of Jesus physically coming to Earth in Revelation 21.
There is no mention of Jesus coming to earth in or on clouds in Revelation 21.
There is no mention of clouds in Revelation 21.
Then why have you stated the opposite and argued for a position on the rapture that ignores those facts?
 
He is on Earth, fulfilling Zechariah.
Zechariah never explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth.

If that statement is intended to reference Zechariah 14:4 then you should better examine all the passage has to say.

Zechariah 14:1-9
Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.


Notice verse 4 does NOT state, "on" that day. This is an indication that day is not a literal 24 hour period in which a specific moment of standing occurs that can be measure with a watch.

More importantly, the larger passage explicitly states the day entails God (LORD, not Lord) taken away from Jerusalem will be divided in front of them. The NAS does not do a very good job here, but the Greek makes this very clear: the spoils are divided "in their midst." So this day when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives is the day when spoils are taken from Jerusalem. The next verse states multiple nations battle against Jerusalem and capture it, plunder the houses, ravish the women, and cut off others from the city. That is the day his feet are said to stand on the Mount of Olives.

Notice what follows. The Mount of Olives splits and forms a large valley so that half of the mountain moves north, and half moves south. The valley extends to Azel, which is to the west of Jerusalem. No one knows the exact location of Azel but general consensus is that it was at the southeast end of the Mount of Olives. The text states an earthquake happens, and the people flee, and that is when God comes.

Logically, speaking an earthquake violent enough to split a mountain in two and move the two halves of the mountain apart from one another is an earthquake that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. An earthquake happened in the Jericho rift in 1033AD and destroyed all the surrounding towns. Earthquakes do sometimes create valleys. An earthquake in Turkey did exactly that but nowhere close to the scale described if Zechariah 14 is taken literally. If the earthquake mentioned in Zechariah 14 is taken literally then the text means when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives, then the entire city is destroyed. That is what an earthquake violent enough to split the mountain in two would do.


The first rule in proper exegesis is to read the text as written, with the normal meanings of the words in ordinary usage unless there is reason in the text itself giving reason to do otherwise. Once we realize a literal earthquake like the one described in Zechariah 4 would literally destroy the city, we know the text itself is telling us not to read the text literally. There would be no spoils of the city to capture, not spoils to distribute, and no one living to receive them.

  • God, not Jesus, stands on the Mount of Olives.
  • Jerusalem sieged, captured, and plundered.
  • God king over all the earth, not on the earth.

Throughout the New Testament Jesus is repeatedly reported to be King of all kings, Lord of all lords, High Priest over all other priests, the ruler over all other rules...... and every knee will bow to him as Lord but they do so to the glory of God the Father (Php. 2:11).




So, once again, the Dispensationalist view proves incorrect and untenable, once the passage to which Dispensationalism itself appeals is examined exegetically.




Now notice that I have interpreted the text. I have never said interpretation is a bad thing, only that eisegesis is not sound interpretation. On this occasion I have endeavored to read the text as literally as possible where the text can be read literally. Because there is a portion that logic dictates cannot be read literally, and interpretation has been attempted using the rules of exegesis. A lot could be said about this exegetically, because Jesus did previously stand on the Mount of Olives, most notably to expound upon his prediction the temple would be destroyed in Matthew 24. The point here is that Zechariah 14:4 does say the LORD's feet stand on the Mount of Olives, but it is the LORD's feet, not the Lord's feet, and if the commensurate earthquake is taken literally the city is destroyed. It is NOT something that reconciles with Revelation 20.

But it does reconcile with the aforementioned Psalm 110 😁. Jesus stays enthroned in heaven until his Father defeats all his enemies. The Lord is enthroned in heaven until the LORD defeats the Lord's enemies.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”



Consistency based on as literal a reading as is exegetically possible and NOT a "consistency" based on repeated inferences and implied readings of the texts that do not prove consistent with the text when read as literally as possible. The word "earth" is used twelve times in the book of Zechariah (look it up and verify it) and not one of them explicitly states Jesus is physically on the earth. The Father comes to earth in Zechariah 14, not the Son; the LORD, not the Lord.


If you study the basics of exegesis and then apply those precepts to reading the passages that you cite, you will subsequently come away with a completely different eschatology than the one posted in this thread. It won't just be different, it will also be more consistent with whole scripture and more consistent with 2,000 years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. It will be more orthodox, and not the normative and statistical outlier.
 
The discussion here is with those who say that Jesus is never going to say "come up here". That that in itself is rank speculation.

That's right and it evades the logical problem of how the dead are collected, besides the living. Which is actually why some of the Thess passages are there.
 
Then why have you stated the opposite and argued for a position on the rapture that ignores those facts?
I didn't. I said Jesus came to Earth in Revelation 19. The kingdom on Earth for the millennial kingdom is in fulfillment of God's oaths to David, which, as far as I am concerned, do not fall flat. The rapture occurs before the tribulation, which is either seven years, or three and a half years, all depending on how one defines the times. The Early Church Fathers called the last 3 1/2 years the Great Tribulation, whenever they brought it up. (Not all of them did, but those who did made it out to be 3 1/2 years. The pseudo Ephraim, sermons from the 4th or 5th century spoke of the rapture prior to the 3 1/2 year tribulation, making it obvious that the writer believed in the rapture. He also believed in the Anti-Christ, and a restored temple, restored at the behest of the Anti-Christ so that he can stand in the temple and declare himself God.
 
That is not an answer to any of the questions first asked. You are trolling. I am moving on.
So you are okay with bending scripture to your beliefs? At least we got that straightened out. Have I ever done it. Probably. I know of one instance where it really wasn't to my belief, but to my mistaken understanding. While it was my belief, due to not going back to the context, I ended up changing what the passage meant. It didn't undermine any important belief that I had, but did mean I can't use it anymore as I had been using it. However, you keep right on going.
 
That's right and it evades the logical problem of how the dead are collected, besides the living. Which is actually why some of the Thess passages are there.
It is difficult since it doesn't express exactly what happens with the dead, other than a translation from one place to another. It doesn't say "they live again" like it does in Revelation.
 
It is difficult since it doesn't express exactly what happens with the dead, other than a translation from one place to another. It doesn't say "they live again" like it does in Revelation.

You seriously need to get out of here. “So shall we (living and dead) ever be with Him in the air” ( notice: not on earth).

Read 10x more than you post, it’s really awful.
 
You seriously need to get out of here. “So shall we (living and dead) ever be with Him in the air” ( notice: not on earth).

Read 10x more than you post, it’s really awful.
Sorry but putting you on ignore for a month til I see your handling is improved. This last batch was simply horrid. You have no idea what the OT quotes of early Acts mean bc futurism is toxic.

Get my book and be prepared to groan.
 
Where did the idea that the Son of man Jesus would come again?

What would that prove (God is a man?

Is not the Holy Spirit here reigning in the heart of believers to both will and do His good pleasure of the Father?

Jesus our brother in the Lord empowered by Father did the will of the Father with delight, some murmur ?

The Holy Spirit of Christ will leave like a thief in the night on the last day.

Only one demonstration of the mighty Father working in the Son of man, Some did trust Christ who worked in the Son of man jesu .that ended when the Son of man disappeared . He will be raised up on the last day just like us, his brothers and sisters, sons of God

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

No reincarnation. God is not a man
 
Then why have you stated the opposite and argued for a position on the rapture that ignores those facts?

I didn't. I said Jesus came to Earth in Revelation 19. The kingdom on Earth.........
Post # 59 proves otherwise. I Post 59 you stated, "Jesus does not descend for the rapture," and in reply to that you were shown 1 Thessalonians 4:16, a verse that explicitly states "the Lord will descend..." That qualifies as you stating the opposite of what scripture states. Furthermore, having stated Jesus does not descend for the rapture you also say he comes to earth for the millennium kingdom. Therefore Jesus has descended. There are only two options here: either Jesus is one earth when he gathers everyone before heading back to heaven (which would still be a descent) or he goes back to heaven and then descends again (ala 1 Thes. 4) to have all the wheat and weeds gathered. Either way Jesus descends and what you've stated does not reconcile with scripture and one posts doesn't reconcile with another.
I said Jesus came to Earth in Revelation 19.
Yep. And I pointed out nowhere does Revelation 19 ever state such a thing. It took multiple attempts to get you to acknowledge what should be obvious to all and what should immediately be acknowledged by all: the actual facts of the text. Revelation repeatedly states Jesus is in heaven until chapter 21 and you've gone on record stating the book never states Jesus is physically on earth, but you read it as something implied though it is nowhere stated in the entire book until chapter 21 (the one possible exception being Rev. 14:1). Comparatively speaking, I point to plainly read scripture and the explicit statements and you point to inferentially read scripture and implications read into the text.
The kingdom on Earth for the millennial kingdom is in fulfillment of God's oaths to David, which, as far as I am concerned, do not fall flat.
Non sequitur. This op is not about the "kingdom on earth," the kingdom is already here, and I am not going to digress to another subject so you can further obfuscate the current failure to correctly post about the rapture.
The rapture occurs before the tribulation...
And yet Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation (Mt. 24:9), He explicitly stated they would see the great tribulation and it would be cut short for the sake of the elect (Mt. 24:21), all seven of the seven churches in Revelation are repeatedly encouraged, exhorted, and admonished to persevere through the tribulation, and in Revelation 7 we read, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The rapture does NOT occur prior to the tribulation.
 
And yet Jesus explicitly stated the disciples would be handed over to tribulation (Mt. 24:9), He explicitly stated they would see the great tribulation and it would be cut short for the sake of the elect (Mt. 24:21), all seven of the seven churches in Revelation are repeatedly encouraged, exhorted, and admonished to persevere through the tribulation, and in Revelation 7 we read, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Yes a time period like never before or ever again . The gospel explosion men women prophets form all the nations became one new .The Christian nation the nation of nations.

No more kings in Israel the abomination of desolation a time period when there was no female or gentile prophets . The women they could not participate in the verable mens only ceremonies. A 15 foot high Wall separated them from the venerable puffed dying mankind called fathers and another high Wall the gentiles separated from the Jews. Both fell and therefore the "gospel explosion" .Just as promised in Joel . The beginning of the last days, unknowable end .No signs were given

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 
So you are okay with bending scripture to your beliefs?
Argumentum ad nauseam and gaslighting.

I am on record stating our beliefs should be bent to well-rendered, exegetically rendered scripture that begins with accepting and believing the explicit statements. You are the guy who has been bending scripture to fit his beliefs in almost every post. Every time I have corrected one of your interpretations, I have done so starting with what is explicitly stated and used those statement and explained how any inference is necessary, not optional.
 
Yes a time period like never before or ever again.
Hyperbole. It is a commonly used literary device employed throughout scripture. If the phrase were taken literally then the tribulation would have to be worse that the destruction of Israel, worse than any atomic explosion that eradicated everyone at the center of the explosion (a 100% fatality rate), and they'd all have to be beaten, raped, and mutilated before being erased from existence. Those are the kinds of events that have happened in real history and if the "great tribulation" is literally worse than anything before or after then both the country Israel and all Jews cease to exist. It's a decidedly anti-Semitic eschatology.

If, however, Christians do endure and survive the great tribulation as I have shown scripture to teach then it is bad, but the "worse than anything else" qualifier is hyperbole.
The gospel explosion men women prophets form all the nations became one new .The Christian nation the nation of nations.
Yes, as Peter has articulated in his first epistle,

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of the One having called you out of darkness into His marvelous light...

He was referencing something God told Moses.

Exodus 19:3-6
Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself. ~'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

That OT promise was fulfilled in the NT era and remains fulfilled today. It is not something for hich we should be looking to as a new occurrence in our future related to the separate rapture doctrine.

No more kings in Israel........
Welllll..... There has always been a king in Israel but not all Israel is Israel and the Israel that is not Israel rejected the King as their King and lived what amounted to a delusional life because Jesus did not stop being King just because he was rejected.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Yes, the "last days" happened in the NT era but the last days are not identical to the last day, and this op is about the "rapture doctrine."
 
Hyperbole. It is a commonly used literary device employed throughout scripture. If the phrase were taken literally then the tribulation would have to be worse that the destruction of Israel, worse than any atomic explosion that eradicated everyone at the center of the explosion (a 100% fatality rate), and they'd all have to be beaten, raped, and mutilated before being erased from existence. Those are the kinds of events that have happened in real history and if the "great tribulation" is literally worse than anything before or after then both the country Israel and all Jews cease to exist. It's a decidedly anti-Semitic eschatology.

What greater tribulation to the world could the gospel be. . we are the last days

Sound more like the end of time under the sun The end

All of Israel is not born again Israel. Same as the word Christian.

The first century reformation the fulfilment of the shadows as ceremonial laws as shadows of the good things to come that di dnothing to the user but a sign to the unbelieving world that pointed ahead to a sufferings savor before hand .

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying(metaphor ), that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on until the time of reformation

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Again cerinilaw laws point ahead

One new shadow as a ceremonial law is used now that Jew and gentiles, men and women gathered as one body .

1 Corinthians 11King James Version1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

Then Christ the husband will kiss his bride the church according to that parable 1 Corinthian 11.
 
What greater tribulation to the world could the gospel be... we are the last days
The claim we are in the last days is a matter of dispute. Paul stated the ends of the ages had come upon the first century Corinthians and he said that informing his readers that is why what we call the Old Testament was written.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Not the beginning of the ages, the ends of them. Can you show me an example in the Bible were the end of something took 2000 or more years for the end to end? Is there any precedent in scripture for an end to take that long? Do you think the lasts days is something different than the needs of the age? If so, then please explain that, proving it with scripture (and preferably explicit scripture read exactly as written).
Sound more like the end of time under the sun The end
I do not have a clue what that means.
All of Israel is not born again Israel. Same as the word Christian.
The Israel that is not born anew from above is not Israel. As far as I can tell "not all Israel is Israel" is the consensus of all in this thread but it means different things to those subscribing to the rapture doctrine because they think bloodline Israel and the geo-political nation-state Israel matter. They do not.
The first century reformation the fulfilment of the shadows as ceremonial laws as shadows of the good things to come that did nothing to the user but a sign to the unbelieving world that pointed ahead to a sufferings savor before hand .

Hebrew 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying(metaphor ), that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on until the time of reformation

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Again cerinilaw laws point ahead

One new shadow as a ceremonial law is used now that Jew and gentiles, men and women gathered as one body .

1 Corinthians 11King James Version1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

Then Christ the husband will kiss his bride the church according to that parable 1 Corinthian 11.
How is any of that related to the rapture doctrine described in this op?
 
What is "it"?
The drawing up of believers on the last day . some call it the rapture .The signified understanding hidden in parables. No literal thousand years .
No sign was given to wonder after.

.
 
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