HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?

[TMSO]

I believe the whole world will see the sign of the Son of man at the pre great tribulation rapture event. It will be followed by the angel with the everlasting gospel spreading it to all the world and then the end of the world as we presently know it, will come with a third of the earth getting burned up with the fall of Babylon ( USA ) for why a New World order will come about for the rest of the 2/3rds parts of the world and the mark of the beast system for pooling resources to survive after that fiery calamity. Then the third angel warns everyone of the consequence which is the lake of fire for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in that coming New World Order.

I don't believe the USA is Babylon. That said, I only see one possible place where the USA is mentioned anywhere in Revelation, and it is stretching it. (And the woman was given two wings of an eagle...) There is no reason to believe that the USA is Babylon, however, there is also no reason to believe that the USA is going to be anything like it is now. It could become a third world country (as we seem to be doing to ourselves now.)

Those 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth as everyone will have heard the gospel and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark and that is the lake of fire. That is the temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

The great temptation is that which will surround the Anti Christ, where all whose names aren't in the book of life are amazed, and drawn after Him. They will not escape that temptation.

My sharing this is to show the obviousness of His appearing as being global and yet because of that fiery calamity and the temptation to survive in that coming New World Order is why it is that hour of temptations; they will know the truth, but how will they choose?

It will be global, but His first stop is Armageddon, to... clean up the trash. However, some have changed their thought to the rapture being a whimper, and the "aliens" will take credit, and everyone will believe them. Jesus will not be seen at the rapture event. He will not be seen until He returns as fully revealed as the Messiah. (Jesus words to Jerusalem in Matthew. Seen in Zechariah.)

 

[TMSO]

John explained what he had meant by the term first resurrection as that resurrection after the great tribulation was to happen first before the rest of the dead are raised at the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:5

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You miss the fact that the "But the rest of the dead..." part is an aside. These who were resurrected to reign with Christ are the first resurrection, and blessed are those who take part because the second death cannot touch them. In the context, we know John is speaking of a resurrection, so as soon as you see resurrection with a first on the front, you know it is related to this resurrection. The rest of the dead are part of the second resurrection which is to judgement. Those in the book to righteousness, those not in the book to damnation. The question would be, after the rapture, is everyone in a pre-resurrection status and they are part of the second resurrection? So are they "souls" in heaven, until judgement, as these were souls until they lived again?

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is obviously speaking about verse 5 and earlier because "and shall reign with him a thousand years". John already told us who they are.

So all John meant by first resurrection was that this particular resurrection was to happen first before the resurrection at the Great white Throne Judgment. John was not inferring there was no pre great tribulation rapture event where there was a resurrection of the firstfruits.

There is only one resurrection of firstfruits and that was Jesus. Paul tells us that clearly. "20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power."

So I am questioning the rapture being an actual resurrection event at all. It is a translation from earth to heaven.

Those that partake of the first fruits of the resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event are the inhabitants of that City of God in Heaven that will come down from Heaven for God to dwell among men.

Again, only Jesus was the first fruits. But yes, those in the rapture are in heaven, and I'm not sure if they stay there, or if they come back in the millennium. My belief is they are in Jerusalem with Jesus, though not necessarily reigning with Him, but living there.

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't know that the rapture event is a resurrection. Also, to be resurrected at a rapture event, you would need to be dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is a resurrection involving the dead at the time Christ takes the living at the rapture event where they both meet Him in the air to be forever with the Lord in Heaven for which He had promised His disciples where He would take them to be at for where He is now.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event is what the O.T. saints are waiting for to sit down at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven along with N.T. saints that died abiding in Him along with the living that were found abiding in Him & not found in iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

And, I just toss that in, it's a good thing God doesn't ask us how to do things. So your difficulty means nothing to him, and to be honest, why should you have that difficulty. Hebrews says that it is appointed man once to die then judgement. That is after the millennium. Those who die for Him in the tribulation get resurrected early for this, and, as show, have already been judged as righteous. The second death cannot touch them. And they get to reign with Christ for a thousand years, because of what they did.

I don't see this changing anything. We already have the rapture for all the righteous before the tribulation, so they aren't even here to be resurrected.

Again, nothing about resurrection here, or anything at all about what happens in the end.

Again, I am not sure the rapture is a resurrection. It may just be everyone's souls in heaven until after the millennium. I mean, if there was a resurrection before the first resurrection, then the first resurrection isn't first anymore. Note how those in the first ressurrection were only souls until John says they lived again. (Meaning, now resurrected with new bodies.)

So there is a celestial body, vessels of gold & silver, that attends the Marriage Supper in Heaven and then after the great tribulation, there is a glorified terrestrial body that are the vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood & earth, that serves the King of kings on earth in raising up the next millennium generation.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the ones that depart from iniquity by His grace & by His help in being ready to go are the vessels unto honor whereas the ones that did not depart from iniquity will be denied by Him for why they are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House as vessels of wood & earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 

[ChristB4us]

I don't believe the USA is Babylon. That said, I only see one possible place where the USA is mentioned anywhere in Revelation, and it is stretching it. (And the woman was given two wings of an eagle...) There is no reason to believe that the USA is Babylon, however, there is also no reason to believe that the USA is going to be anything like it is now. It could become a third world country (as we seem to be doing to ourselves now.)

The absence of it in the face of the armies listed in prophesies as marching against Jerusalem should tell us something that when a third of the earth got burned up, USA went with it per Revelation 8:7

It would explain the cause for the peace treaty after the rapture when Israel's greatest ally is gone and her finger is on the nuke button. By allowing Israel to build that third Temple; and after such a calamity like that when a third of the earth gets burned up, the time for war is over and everybody better get in line with the New World Order and the coming mark of the beast system for buying & selling to survive.

Thing is; that is the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth because those who take the mark of the beast are going to the lake of fire; no matter what.

The great temptation is that which will surround the Anti Christ, where all whose names aren't in the book of life are amazed, and drawn after Him. They will not escape that temptation.

When a third of the earth; the western hemisphere, gets burned up, there will be a collapse of the world's economy and commerce, and so a New World Order will be implemented for pooling resources and coming up with a new but only means for buying and selling to gain a worldly cooperation for peace. Those who refuse the mark are refusing to cooperate for peace.

How the Jews escape this may be on the NWO giving them a grace period to convince them that they are allowed to have that third Temple and exist peacefully with the world and that it is not a ruse in the hopes they will take the mark of the beast as signifying they finally trust the beast which is the EU.

It will be global, but His first stop is Armageddon, to... clean up the trash.

The pre great tribulation rapture event will be global as all eyes will see that sign of the Son of Man and then the end of the world will come as they know it for why the mark of the beast is for in that coming great tribulation.

His coming as the King of kings will be obvious as well when the world's armies will be marching against Jerusalem. You cannot get a new heaven and a new earth afterwards without noticing Jesus Christ has arrived as the King of kings to establish a new heaven and a new earth.

However, some have changed their thought to the rapture being a whimper, and the "aliens" will take credit, and everyone will believe them. Jesus will not be seen at the rapture event. He will not be seen until He returns as fully revealed as the Messiah. (Jesus words to Jerusalem in Matthew. Seen in Zechariah.)

It will be obvious because of that fiery calamity that people's hearts are worrying about survival for why they will be tempted to forget about that everlasting gospel that they had heard the angel preached all over the world after the rapture and why after hearing that fall of Babylon USA, they will be tempted to ignore the warning by that third angel about the eternal consequence for taking the mark which is the lake of fire.

 

[ChristB4us]

You miss the fact that the "But the rest of the dead..." part is an aside. These who were resurrected to reign with Christ are the first resurrection, and blessed are those who take part because the second death cannot touch them. In the context, we know John is speaking of a resurrection, so as soon as you see resurrection with a first on the front, you know it is related to this resurrection.

Since Jesus is warning the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 to depart from iniquity or be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation and Jesus exhorted the church at Philadelphia to hold fast and they shall be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 3:7-11; then where is the consequence as well as the reward if the rapture did not take place before the great tribulation comes?

That is the whole point of Revelation is to warn believers to be ready for the Bridegroom to escape the future events that is coming.

And so when I read "first" resurrection; I see this as meaning after the great tribulation, this resurrection was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment. John was not inferring there was no other resurrection before that one after the great tribulation.

 

[Wordsmith]

That is nuance. If a rapture occurs, then there will be people in heaven with a glorified body at that translation. Not a resurrection, but a translation. Another possibility is, that it is only the souls until the final resurrection.

IF I had a box of gold I would be rich but I'm not! There are no scriptures that point to a future "translation" or a "rapture back to heaven".

I have no doubt you believe in a rapture, I am just asking for one clear scripture that says that actually happens with a return trip to heaven. The fact is there are none without reading that into certain passages.

Multiple passages tell us Jesus comes again, but NONE says He comes then goes back. Do you think there just might be a reason for that?

 

[Wordsmith]

So I am questioning the rapture being an actual resurrection event at all. It is a translation from earth to heaven.

You are free to believe what you wish but there is not one shred of evidence to support that.

Take any passage you like that you think is a rapture passage and show us how you get there?

 

[Wordsmith]

Again, I am not sure the rapture is a resurrection.

Well then show us what passages you use to determine there is a pre-trib rapture then show us it is not a resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Context here is a resurrection

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Context here is still a resurrection.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Still talking about a resurrection.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then comet the end. It seems Paul is agreeing.with Jesus on timing.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

It may just be everyone's souls in heaven until after the millennium.

What? Jesus is not even in heaven during the millennium! Remember we shall be with Him where ever He is! Jesus leaves no one in heaven for. a thousand years.

This is the problem with this pre-trib error, there is way too much speculation, assumptions what ifs and reading into scripture what is needed but not really there.

 

[Josheb]

Apparently it is on topic, and this is just hot air to obfuscate.

The posts prove otherwise. Thank you for your time.

 

[TMSO]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is a resurrection involving the dead at the time Christ takes the living at the rapture event where they both meet Him in the air to be forever with the Lord in Heaven for which He had promised His disciples where He would take them to be at for where He is now.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This resurrection at the pre great tribulation rapture event is what the O.T. saints are waiting for to sit down at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven along with N.T. saints that died abiding in Him along with the living that were found abiding in Him & not found in iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So there is a celestial body, vessels of gold & silver, that attends the Marriage Supper in Heaven and then after the great tribulation, there is a glorified terrestrial body that are the vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood & earth, that serves the King of kings on earth in raising up the next millennium generation.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the ones that depart from iniquity by His grace & by His help in being ready to go are the vessels unto honor whereas the ones that did not depart from iniquity will be denied by Him for why they are vessels unto dishonor but still in His House as vessels of wood & earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I'm just saying that if you look in Revelation, they were souls first, and then they were alive again. It is not to say it isn't a resurrection, but I think there is more than enough to question.

 

[TMSO]

The absence of it in the face of the armies listed in prophesies as marching against Jerusalem should tell us something that when a third of the earth got burned up, USA went with it per Revelation 8:7

That's too big an assumption.

It would explain the cause for the peace treaty after the rapture when Israel's greatest ally is gone and her finger is on the nuke button. By allowing Israel to build that third Temple; and after such a calamity like that when a third of the earth gets burned up, the time for war is over and everybody better get in line with the New World Order and the coming mark of the beast system for buying & selling to survive.

The peace treaty is a deception.

Thing is; that is the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth because those who take the mark of the beast are going to the lake of fire; no matter what.

When a third of the earth; the western hemisphere, gets burned up, there will be a collapse of the world's economy and commerce, and so a New World Order will be implemented for pooling resources and coming up with a new but only means for buying and selling to gain a worldly cooperation for peace. Those who refuse the mark are refusing to cooperate for peace.

That would be half of the earth.

How the Jews escape this may be on the NWO giving them a grace period to convince them that they are allowed to have that third Temple and exist peacefully with the world and that it is not a ruse in the hopes they will take the mark of the beast as signifying they finally trust the beast which is the EU.

The pre great tribulation rapture event will be global as all eyes will see that sign of the Son of Man and then the end of the world will come as they know it for why the mark of the beast is for in that coming great tribulation.

Except some have come to believe it may be more of a whimper, which is why the great deception will be so great.

His coming as the King of kings will be obvious as well when the world's armies will be marching against Jerusalem. You cannot get a new heaven and a new earth afterwards without noticing Jesus Christ has arrived as the King of kings to establish a new heaven and a new earth.

It will be obvious because of that fiery calamity that people's hearts are worrying about survival for why they will be tempted to forget about that everlasting gospel that they had heard the angel preached all over the world after the rapture and why after hearing that fall of Babylon USA, they will be tempted to ignore the warning by that third angel about the eternal consequence for taking the mark which is the lake of fire.

When Jesus finally comes, His words will be, ahem, the last thing going through their minds.

 

[TMSO]

Since Jesus is warning the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25 to depart from iniquity or be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation and Jesus exhorted the church at Philadelphia to hold fast and they shall be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 3:7-11; then where is the consequence as well as the reward if the rapture did not take place before the great tribulation comes?

The question is, where is the great tribulation. The Earch Church Fathers seem to lean towards the last 3 1/2 years as being the great tribulation. (The time that the antichrist comes out of the closet and breaks the covenant with Israel.)

That is the whole point of Revelation is to warn believers to be ready for the Bridegroom to escape the future events that is coming.

And so when I read "first" resurrection; I see this as meaning after the great tribulation, this resurrection was to happen "first" before the rest of the dead are resurrected at the Great White Throne Judgment. John was not inferring there was no other resurrection before that one after the great tribulation.

The first resurrection is right before the millennium, at the end of the great tribulation. The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium, at the last judgement.

 

[TMSO]

IF I had a box of gold I would be rich but I'm not! There are no scriptures that point to a future "translation" or a "rapture back to heaven".

I have no doubt you believe in a rapture, I am just asking for one clear scripture that says that actually happens with a return trip to heaven. The fact is there are none without reading that into certain passages.

Multiple passages tell us Jesus comes again, but NONE says He comes then goes back. Do you think there just might be a reason for that?

Just one clear passage that mentions trinity. There are not scriptures that point to a trinity. You understand that the rapture did not rise in a vacuum, and that it has been mentioned from early in the church, with a clear statement as far back as the 5th century, right? The trinity is the same way. One can see the concept in scripture, just as one can see Paul and even John presenting concepts that some have taken to mean a rapture. Even the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century speaks of a coming tribulation that the church will pass by.

 

[TMSO]

You are free to believe what you wish but there is not one shred of evidence to support that.

Take any passage you like that you think is a rapture passage and show us how you get there?

I am not going to do it for fear you build a hermeneutic that destroys trinitarinaism through how the scripture is handled. Because, obviously, one would have to have a consistent hermeneutic that would then be used to consider other doctrines and theologies.

 

[TMSO]

Well then show us what passages you use to determine there is a pre-trib rapture then show us it is not a resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Context here is a resurrection

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Context here is still a resurrection.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Still talking about a resurrection.

The rapture isn't His coming. He doesn't come until Revelation 19. So, as such, would that not mean that the rapture is not a resurrection, but a translation?

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then comet the end. It seems Paul is agreeing.with Jesus on timing.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

What? Jesus is not even in heaven during the millennium! Remember we shall be with Him where ever He is! Jesus leaves no one in heaven for. a thousand years.

His coming mentioned in 23 is at the start of the millennium. The first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20.

This is the problem with this pre-trib error, there is way too much speculation, assumptions what ifs and reading into scripture what is needed but not really there.

Same with the trinity. (And I am also a die hard trinitarian.)

 

[TMSO]

The posts prove otherwise. Thank you for your time.

Not seeing it.

 

[Josheb]

Not seeing it.

Do you want to see it?

 

[ChristB4us]

I'm just saying that if you look in Revelation, they were souls first, and then they were alive again. It is not to say it isn't a resurrection, but I think there is more than enough to question.

Are you referring to the souls under that altar as if before they were born in regards to Revelation 6:9-11?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Those souls are crying to the Lord to avenge the spilling of their blood on the earth and so that canot be the case.

Unless you wish to explain your comment further and what specific reference in Revelation you are referring to, I can only guess and explain why I disagree with that assessment if that was the reference you were referring to.

However, as a tot, I have been getting prophetic dreams and did not realize that they were prophetic dreams until years later when I was moved across several states with my family when that day I had arrived, I dreamt an event as it would happen the very next day and it did and I ask the Lord why did this happen and I got this impression in my mind saying "The stage is set, the characters are in place: the die is cast".

When I finally met that girl in my dreams, she is 12 years younger than me. I was a tot about 5 years old when I started dreaming about her and so I had dreamt her about 7 years before she was born.

In one of the series of dreams as a tot, I was in Heaven enjoying the Presence of being with the Lord in His Temple; and I heard voices of my family crying out, pleading with me to come back. The Lord was there and He showed me the Book of what I would be doing if I went back; and I saw the adult sins I would be committing and I did not want to sin against the Lord; I did not want to be separated from Him and I was grieved in my heart & spirit in not wanting to go back and that made my family plead all the more in anguish for me to come back. Then the Lord said "I will see what I can do.."

Not sure if that nightmare was prior to my waking up where I was about to be strangled to death in a freak accident by my own bed sheets. Both ends of the bed sheet were to the side of the bed as it was tied in a know around my throat. I found myself choking to death as I could not breath. I tried to dig my fingers into the knot to untie it but to no avail. Then I collapsed, praying silently for God to save me. Then I found myself able to breath when I had stopped struggling. And then proceeded to untie the knot.

The next day, my mother noticed my blood shot eyes and alerted my dad as I explained I had almost choked to death that last night. It would make sense that nightmare was prior to that event, but I cannot exactly recall if it was.

Getting back to the series of those prophetic dreams as a tot, the way those markers in my dreams fell into place as they came true as I did commit those adult sins and am still ashamed for committing them but the Lord has delivered me from them and is keeping me from them. All the markers identifying that girl as the one in my dreams also fell into place as she was not to marry me but another whose wife was attached to another for why he could not go back to her and this "priest" allowed the girl of my dreams to be with him.

There is more but there is no point to continue about the dreams other than that the initial dream had my mother waking me up in my sleep because she had thought I was having a nightmare when in fact I was having a wonderful dream of being with that girl that I love in Heaven... raptured? I hope in Jesus Christ so... since the firstfruits are not marrying nor given in marriage and so she would be like a beloved sister to me, but of course, His love in me for her would be the same for all my brothers & sisters & mothers in Heaven.

But I was so happy to see her there in Heaven safe in the Lord. Really wished my mother had not waken me up.

So did we have an existence before we were born or was that just the Lord showing me things to come and by my looking into that Book, is my seeing all the events including the ones regarding the girl I love with His love but played out in time as He dispensed it to me as a tot?

When I see Him face to face, I should know all things, but if that was what you were inferring to, having an existence before we were born, there is scripture that suggests it, but not really prove it.

Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Does that mean we had existence in the thoughts of God before we were born? I do not know now, but I am sure we will know later on.

But I do not believe Revelation 6:9-11 ( if that was the reference you were referring to in Revelation ) is about souls pre-existing when they are under the altar and crying for the Lord to take vengeance on those that spilled their blood on the earth but the Lord told them to wait instead.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[ChristB4us]

That's too big an assumption.

Is it? USA is Israel's biggest ally. So where is it when all those armies are marching against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation? Nowhere in sight. Therefore something happened to USA after the pre great tribulation rapture event as God will take vengeance on USA and the church committing whoredom for why the fall of Babylon is designated in Revelation 18th chapter as happening by that second angel in Revelation 14:8 of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth in Revelation 14:6-11 and verse 12 for those saved believers that wish to be ready to escape that hour of temptation by faith in Jesus Christ to help them keep his commandments.

The peace treaty is a deception.

Of course. But it will be the means to put Israel at ease by taking that finer off of that nuke button when USA is gone, when all her enemies will allow them to build that third Temple.

That would be half of the earth.

The third of the land is burned up and the third of the seas will be burned up also and so it will be like half of the earth.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The description does seem to match what is going on in the earth with the threat of super volcanos and other volcanos threatening to erupt because they are signaling the Lord is coming to judge the earth, but yet the Lord refers to the heavens as if on fire and so we see violent solar activities whereby if it ever ejected a mass from it hurtling towards earth, I could see how it would definitely match that destruction for why believers now in these latter days should be praying for help to be found abiding in Hi & free from snares to be willing to go too.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Except some have come to believe it may be more of a whimper, which is why the great deception will be so great.

After the rapture is the first angel spreading the everlasting gospel everywhere and then that fiery calamity will come, but yet after that announcement from the 2nd angel of the fall of Babylon USA, the third angel warns everyone of the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire. So everybody will know the truth for why it is considered that hour of temptation for all that remains in the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event

When Jesus finally comes, His words will be, ahem, the last thing going through their minds.

As for the Bridegroom that has come & gone, it will be the words of those 3 angels whereby the temptation to ignore them to survive in the coming New World Order and the mark of the beast system to buy & sell is why they will be without excuse when they ignore it.

 

[ChristB4us]

The question is, where is the great tribulation. The Earch Church Fathers seem to lean towards the last 3 1/2 years as being the great tribulation. (The time that the antichrist comes out of the closet and breaks the covenant with Israel.)

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

The pre great tribulation rapture event is when Jesus will judge His House first and thereby cast the unrepentant saints into that bed of the coming great tribulation.

That great tribulation period will not be fully realized until that son of perdition reveals himself in that Holy of Holies halfway thru that great tribulation for when it actually becomes that great tribulation.

Someone designated the beginning of the great tribulation was by that peace treaty that allows Israel to give out that command to build that Third Temple; so when they give out that order is when the period as in that bed of the great tribulation begins.

Can't remember the reference but it was in the Book of Daniel. And yes, somebody taught that to me but it fits as applied even though the one teaching it did not see the pre great tribulation rapture was when God will judge His House first per 1 Peter 4:17, but I certainly do, thanks to Jesus Christ in His words.

The first resurrection is right before the millennium, at the end of the great tribulation. The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium, at the last judgement.

No. You are missing it because you see first resurrection as meaning the actual first resurrection but it cannot be the event in when the saints meet the Lord in the air in joining with the resurrection of O.T. saints & N.T. saints in 1 Thessalonians 4;13-18 when Jesus is on earth at the time of that "first" resurrection after defeating the world's armies Revelation 19:11-21 & Satan is in the pit for a thousand years in Revelation 20:1-6. Jesus is not meeting those saints resurrected after the great tribulation in the air.