How did Jesus keep from sinning?

[Carbon]

So what kept Him from sinning?

He is God. How else

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Arial,

If he had had a sin nature he would need someone to die for him also. A nature to sin is sinful in itself. Adam's descendants still have the sentence of death imposed on them.

Having the sin nature is our misfortune not our crime. Jesus had the same nature as us, but he never sinned.
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus is not our representative. He is our substitute. Believing he is a representative instead of a substitute, a way shower instead of the way, is not a correct understanding of Christ's death and resurrection. Not even close.

Your claim, but I will hold to the concept that Jesus is our representative, "the captain of our salvation".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

not only for his own salvation

Jesus didn't need salvation.

 

[CrowCross]

If he had had a sin nature he would need someone to die for him also.

I agree 100%

A nature to sin is sinful in itself. Adam's descendants still have the sentence of death imposed on them.

Jesus is not our representative. He is our substitute. Believing he is a representative instead of a substitute, a way shower instead of the way, is not a correct understanding of Christ's death and resurrection. Not even close.

 

[prism]

How did Jesus keep from sinning?​

The same way an elephant keeps from flying.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Jesus didn't need salvation.

Jesus was a mortal human and he died. God, His Father SAVED him from death:
Hebrews 5:5–9 (KJV): 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

We know Christ came in the same flesh as man. He had flesh and blood and could suffer death. He had the genetic makeup handed down from Adam's fall through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and King David. So He was made in all points just like we are, and could be tempted and could sin. So what kept Him from sinning?

The Power of the Father .

 

[CrowCross]

Greetings again CrowCross,

Jesus was a mortal human and he died. God, His Father SAVED him from death:
Hebrews 5:5–9 (KJV): 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Kind regards
Trevor

As I said...Jesus didn't need salvation. Jesus NEVER sinned. However Jesus did become our sin when our sin was imputed to Jesus as he hung on the cross.

 

[Arial]

Having the sin nature is our misfortune not our crime. Jesus had the same nature as us, but he never sinned.
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you really think that someone with a sinful nature---a nature that desires sin and sinful things---can stand before God? Hebrews simply says Jesus took part of the same flesh and blood as us. Does any but God have the power to destroy the devil or the power of death? Can a man with a sinful nature, even without any personal sin destroy the devil and conquer death?

Romans says God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. It does not say that God sent him in/with sinful flesh.

Your claim, but I will hold to the concept that Jesus is our representative, "the captain of our salvation".

Hang on tight. It is a sinking ship.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross and Arial,

As I said...Jesus didn't need salvation. Jesus NEVER sinned.

Hebrews 5:7 states that Jesus needed to be saved from death. God raised Jesus because he had never sinned and because of His fellowship and love for His Son. Jesus was also raised in response to Jesus' request for life and the Psalmist states that this is his salvation:
Psalm 21:1–4 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Jesus is not our representative. He is our substitute. Believing he is a representative instead of a substitute, a way shower instead of the way, is not a correct understanding of Christ's death and resurrection. Not even close.

Hang on tight. It is a sinking ship.

I quoted from Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14 but these are not verses in isolation. Rather they are key verses, almost a summary of what has been stated in their context, Romans 7 and 8 and Hebrews 2. I consider that both of these sections of Scripture can only be properly understood from a representative view of the Atonement. Jesus shared in our fallen Adamic nature so that he could destroy sin at its very source. There are key verses and contexts in Romans that are also important in establishing that Jesus died as our representative, in Romans 3 and 5 for example.

I would be interested in how you understand the following.
Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Is Jesus our example here?

Do you really think that someone with a sinful nature---a nature that desires sin and sinful things---can stand before God?

How do you view the fact that Jesus continually accompanied his 12 apostles? Did these men have a sinful nature? Were they during and after his ministry filled with a desire to sin and have their mind filled with sinful things? Or did the teaching, ministry, sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection have an effectual transforming ability and result? Does the concept of Christ as our substitute have such a transforming effect upon us?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

Hebrews 5:7 states that Jesus needed to be saved from death. God raised Jesus because he had never sinned and because of His fellowship and love for His Son. Jesus was also raised in response to Jesus' request for life and the Psalmist states that this is his salvation:

Well, Jesus did die on the cross. When Jesus died Jesus had no sin but the sins imputed to Him from fallen mankind.

 

[speak 2 my heart]

Jesus would not have lived a long lifespan of hundreds or thousands of years
Jesus at times was tired weak and felt infirmities and was subject to growing old, in time his body would deteriorate - decline and get old with old age
Jesus was described as someone who felt weakness and needed rest he was touched with the feeling of our infirmities; was in all points tempted like as we are, He continually demanded that he was NOT relying upon the power of my own qualities passed down from HIS mother - !
not relying upon the status of being born or created - without an earthly father, i have no power but to deny my own personal will and submit to the will of the spirit of God. Joh 6:63 it is the spirit that quickeneth; - the flesh profiteth nothing: - the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Jesus existed bodily in the form of sinful flesh of man, - passed down from his earthly father David and Mother Mary.
Heb 5: explains
:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
:5 So,, also, Christ glorified NOT himself- to be made an high priest;
:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Arial]

Hebrews 5:7 states that Jesus needed to be saved from death.

It does not say that. This is what it says: In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence..

it does not say he needed to be, but that he asked to be and that he was saved from death. Even though he did die. He had to die in order to be our substitute. He took the penalty of sin for those who God gives to him. Now, no creature with a fallen nature has the capacity to do that. How do we know he is a substitute. First, the Bible clearly says so. "He gave himself as a ransom---". "He bore our sins on his body on the cross". Second, the penalty for sin is death, and he had no sin.

Jesus was also raised in response to Jesus' request for life and the Psalmist states that this is his salvation:
Psalm 21:1–4 (KJV): 1 The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart’s desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Psalm 21:1-4 is a song of rejoicing in the Lord's strength, written by a king (David) about a king (David.)

I quoted from Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14 but these are not verses in isolation. Rather they are key verses, almost a summary of what has been stated in their context, Romans 7 and 8 and Hebrews 2. I consider that both of these sections of Scripture can only be properly understood from a representative view of the Atonement.

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, 15. and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

That is clearly substitution. He shares our flesh and blood in order to be a substitute on the cross of those who are flesh and blood. Through his substitutionary death ( not a representative death) nailing our sins to the cross, bearing upon his own flesh and blood their penalty, he was able to destroy the one who has the power of death. That is why he did not come as an angel to help angels, but as a man, that he might help the offspring of Abraham. (16-18).

Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4. in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That likeness is not a representative likeness but a substitutionary likeness. Our flesh is sinful. Christ's is not. He came, sent by God, in the form of a man, living, eating, breathing, thinking, feeling, as our flesh does. Like us. But that he came in a likeness, shows clearly that he was not in that likeness before he was sent and came. He was surrounded by the same temptations as we are, had equal opportunity to give in to sinful desires as we do, but he was not indwelt by sin in his nature. He was born of God, came forth from God, not Adam.

I consider that both of these sections of Scripture can only be properly understood from a representative view of the Atonement. Jesus shared in our fallen Adamic nature so that he could destroy sin at its very source

If he had shared in our fallen nature, he too would have been fallen. Then, he would have had to die for his own falleness as well as for the children God was giving him. He did not share in our Adamic nature, only in or Adamic flesh and blood. That makes him a substitute in atonement, not a representative. You believe he had a fallen nature, and if I am not mistaken, also believe that he was not God when he came and walked among us. That is why you consider those passages and others as only being properly interpreted as him being a representative and not a substitute.

I would be interested in how you understand the following.
Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Is Jesus our example here?

He is an example of how we are to live because he lived that way, always in step with the Spirit. But that has nothing to do with him being a representative in the atonement. The reason those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires, is because (Gal 2:20)I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Substitution.

 

[Arial]

How do you view the fact that Jesus continually accompanied his 12 apostles?

I view it as the twelve Apostles accompaning Jesus. Because he chose them to. What has that to do with my question?

Did these men have a sinful nature?

Yes.

Were they during and after his ministry filled with a desire to sin and have their mind filled with sinful things?

Well it is doubtful they were filled with a desire to sin or that their minds were filled with sinful things? Why the hyperbole? But it is guaranteed they had some sinful thoughts and desires.

Or did the teaching, ministry, sufferings, crucifixion, death and resurrection have an effectual transforming ability and result?

He naturally had an affect on them. They were hearing strange things and watching him perform miracles. As to whether it was transforming I would first have to know what you mean by transforming and then why you asked the question. I do know that when his captors came out to capture him, (betrayed by one of those disciples) they all fled and Peter denied even knowing him three times.

Does the concept of Christ as our substitute have such a transforming effect upon us?

Again, what do you mean by transformed? It is Christ as a substitute that makes an internal change possible. It actually reconciles those who believe, to God, because the thing that stood in the way, (sin) has met God's justice on the suffering and death of the Son. It is in giving himself as our substitute that he destroys the power of sin and death for the one he lays down his life for. Those he purchases with his blood. The change is internal, in the very heart and mind of the one he dies for. Something the blood of animals slain as a substitute for the death of the Israelite could never do. The idea of substitution was in the very sacrificial worship of Israel.

And this internal change is wrought by God in applying this substitutionary work of Jesus to those he is giving to Jesus, by the Holy Spirit in a new birth. (John 1: 112-13; John 3:1-8)

If all Christ did was represent us, the cross, his death and resurrection, could do nothing to either reconcile to God, or satisfy the demand of justice against sin, and therefore bring about any internal change in what and who humanity is in relation to the Creator. We would all still be left in the same boat. Condemned. Still trying to do the impossible; pull ourselves out of the mire, free ourselves from the chains, climb the stairway to heaven by our own works, break down the gates of hades and death by our own might.

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus was a human, a descendant of Adam and was thus a mortal and shared Adam's fallen nature and the lusts of the flesh.

Trevor, you sir have embraced a serious heresy, one that's blasphemy against Jesus Christ. First, Jesus was not a descendant of Adam, that's a lie to be very blunt, without mincing my words.

1st Corinthians 15:47​

“The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.”

But, you false rellgion that rejects Jesus' deity as the true God, desires to rob Jesus as the I AM that I AM. The scriptures said:

Romans 8:3​

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

Jesus Christ was sent, not in the likeness of flesh, but in the flesh. He was sent, however, not in sinful flesh, but in the likeness of sinful flesh. Nothing can more clearly prove that the Lord Jesus Christ, though He assumed our nature, took it without taint of sin or corruption. He was virgin born. To His perfect holiness the Scriptures bear the fullest testimony. ‘He knew no sin.’ ‘The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in Me.’ He was ‘holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.’ His absolute freedom from sin was indispensable. As God becoming manifest in the flesh, He could not unite Himself to a nature tainted with the smallest impurity. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, and did not spring from Adam by ordinary generation; and, not belonging to his covenant, had no part in his sin. His freedom from sin, original and actual, was necessary, in order that He should be offered as ‘a Lamb without blemish and without spot,’ so that He might be the truth of His types, the legal sacrifices, which it was expressly provided should be free from all blemish; thus distinctly indicating this transcendent characteristic of Him who was to be the one great sacrifice.

If the flesh of Jesus Christ was the likeness of sinful flesh, there must be a difference between the appearance of sinful flesh and our nature, or flesh in its original state when Adam was created. Christ, then, was not made in the likeness of the flesh of man before sin entered the world, but in the likeness of his fallen flesh. Though He had no corruption in His nature, yet He had all the sinless infirmities of our flesh. The person of man, in his present state, may be greatly different from what it was when Adam came from the hand of his Creator. Our bodies, as they are at present, are called "the bodies of our humiliation".

So He was made in all points just like we are, and could be tempted and could sin.

Hobie, Jesus could not sin, yes tempted, yet he could not sin, being equal to God in his deity. Hobie just in case your cult does not teach this truth, you need to learn it well:

Revelation 1:8​

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Now, could have Jesus sinned? Impossible.

 

[speak 2 my heart]

Arial amen​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again CrowCross, Arial and Red Baker,

it does not say he needed to be, but that he asked to be and that he was saved from death. Even though he did die.

I take this to say that he needed to be saved from death. He submitted voluntarily to the death on the cross on our behalf, for us, not instead of us, and He trusted in God to deliver him, to save him, to raise him again from death and exalt him to sit at God's right hand as per the scriptures such as Psalm 16 and Psalm 110..

Well, Jesus did die on the cross. When Jesus died Jesus had no sin but the sins imputed to Him from fallen mankind.

He had to die in order to be our substitute. He took the penalty of sin for those who God gives to him. Now, no creature with a fallen nature has the capacity to do that.

This is where I differ. The penalty for sin is death, but we still die and therefore Jesus is not our substitute. Jesus did not suffer so that we do not suffer. We suffer. Our sins were not transferred to Jesus by some magic formula, nor did Jesus enact some mystical ritual to purge our sins and satisfy an angry God. Rather Jesus in his trials, sufferings, crucifixion and death suffered from real sins, the sins of his contemporaries, and these are typical of ALL the sins that have been and will be committed. In the process of his crucifixion he asked for the forgiveness of those who crucified him, and God accepted his prayer, and we partake of this forgiveness when we believe into him in accepting ALL that was accomplished in his death and resurrection.

Now, no creature with a fallen nature has the capacity to do that.

Jesus had a fallen human nature, and yet he did no sin, so the grave could not hold him. This was because God raised him for His love of His Son, and the fellowship which He shared with Jesus, and also the grave could not hold him as there was a reversal of God's arrangement made in Eden that Adam and his descendants would return to the dust because of sin and the potential to sin.

How do we know he is a substitute. First, the Bible clearly says so. "He gave himself as a ransom---". "He bore our sins on his body on the cross". Second, the penalty for sin is death, and he had no sin.

We need to be careful how we apply the figure of "ransom". We need to consider what was paid and what was released. The reason why Jesus died is that he was mortal, a descendant of Adam, and he volunteered to die.

Psalm 21:1-4 is a song of rejoicing in the Lord's strength, written by a king (David) about a king (David.)

There are many Psalms that use extravagant language and ideas that record the thoughts and feelings of David at particular stages of his life, but they are inspired and find their real fulfillment in Christ, e.g. Psalm 22. Psalm 21:1-4 are a prophecy concerning Jesus and his sufferings and resurrection, which encompasses his salvation.

That is clearly substitution. He shares our flesh and blood in order to be a substitute on the cross of those who are flesh and blood. Through his substitutionary death ( not a representative death) nailing our sins to the cross, bearing upon his own flesh and blood their penalty, he was able to destroy the one who has the power of death. That is why he did not come as an angel to help angels, but as a man, that he might help the offspring of Abraham. (16-18).

Our sins are not transferred by some magical formula, and if he suffered our penalty, then why do we still die?

That likeness is not a representative likeness but a substitutionary likeness. Our flesh is sinful. Christ's is not. He came, sent by God, in the form of a man, living, eating, breathing, thinking, feeling, as our flesh does. Like us. But that he came in a likeness, shows clearly that he was not in that likeness before he was sent and came. He was surrounded by the same temptations as we are, had equal opportunity to give in to sinful desires as we do, but he was not indwelt by sin in his nature. He was born of God, came forth from God, not Adam.

I like the translation "sin's flesh", not "sinful flesh". Our flesh is not FULL of sin, but has the lusts of the flesh that usually lead to sin. The term "sin's flesh" is a summary of what Paul developed in Romans 7 about his struggle against the motions of sin, even when under the Law, and sin was awakened when the Commandment "Thou shalt not covet" came into his consciousness. Jesus had the same nature and lusts as we possess, but NEVER succumbed to these lusts, and instead of his body being governed by "SIN" (metonymy), he never submitted to these lusts. SIN never owned the body of Jesus. Jesus was a descendant of Adam through Mary and shared their fallen human nature.

If he had shared in our fallen nature, he too would have been fallen. Then, he would have had to die for his own falleness as well as for the children God was giving him. He did not share in our Adamic nature, only in or Adamic flesh and blood. That makes him a substitute in atonement, not a representative. You believe he had a fallen nature, and if I am not mistaken, also believe that he was not God when he came and walked among us. That is why you consider those passages and others as only being properly interpreted as him being a representative and not a substitute.

Jesus did not have to sacrifice for his nature. He did no sin.

He is an example of how we are to live because he lived that way, always in step with the Spirit. But that has nothing to do with him being a representative in the atonement. The reason those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires, is because (Gal 2:20)I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Substitution.

I consider one of the important lessons is that Jesus crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts - our Representative.

I view it as the twelve Apostles accompaning Jesus. Because he chose them to. What has that to do with my question?
(Did these men have a sinful nature?) Yes.
Well it is doubtful they were filled with a desire to sin or that their minds were filled with sinful things? Why the hyperbole? But it is guaranteed they had some sinful thoughts and desires.He naturally had an affect on them. They were hearing strange things and watching him perform miracles. As to whether it was transforming I would first have to know what you mean by transforming and then why you asked the question. I do know that when his captors came out to capture him, (betrayed by one of those disciples) they all fled and Peter denied even knowing him three times.

I was using them as an example of how Jesus fellowshipped individuals who had fallen Adamic nature. You seemed to stress that God would have disqualified Jesus if he had fallen Adamic nature. What is significant is that Jesus ALWAYS overcame the lusts of the flesh and never sinned.

If all Christ did was represent us, the cross, his death and resurrection, could do nothing to either reconcile to God, or satisfy the demand of justice against sin, and therefore bring about any internal change in what and who humanity is in relation to the Creator. We would all still be left in the same boat. Condemned. Still trying to do the impossible; pull ourselves out of the mire, free ourselves from the chains, climb the stairway to heaven by our own works, break down the gates of hades and death by our own might.

Maybe the concept of substitution does have some effect on those that adhere to this concept, but I consider the whole representative picture is very motivating and substantial.

Trevor, you sir have embraced a serious heresy, one that's blasphemy against Jesus Christ. First, Jesus was not a descendant of Adam, that's a lie to be very blunt, without mincing my words.

Jesus was the Son of God with God the Father as his father and a descendant of Adam through Mary his mother Luke 1:34-35.

But, you false rellgion that rejects Jesus' deity as the true God, desires to rob Jesus as the I AM that I AM.

I consider that Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be" as discussed elsewhere.

Romans 8:3 “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

Refer to my comments on the likeness of sin's flesh to @Arial above.

Hobie, Jesus could not sin, yes tempted, yet he could not sin, being equal to God in his deity.

My estimate is that @Hobie is SDA and their modern generation accept the Trinity, while many older SDA's did not. If Jesus could not sin then it makes a farce of his temptations and trials and his voluntary submission.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

on our behalf, for us, not instead of us

Kinda says the same thing.

We could say in place of us.

 

[CrowCross]

This is where I differ. The penalty for sin is death, but we still die and therefore Jesus is not our substitute.

Rev 20;14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

What about that death?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus had a fallen human nature, and yet he did no sin, so the grave could not hold him.

So does a newborn baby. Why does the grave hold them?