God Would Not Command What We Cannot Do

[Eleanor]

If God has 'programmed' you to choose an orange over an apple, is that a "free choice"?

If God has 'not programmed' you to choose an orange over an apple, then what/who was the ultimate reason for you choosing an orange? (Remember, you are a created being so that means you didn't program yourself for from nothing nothing comes and at one time your were nothing).

Definitions:

Biblical free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

All actions meeting that definition are Biblically free.

 

[fastfredy0]

Biblical free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

fine .. I define 'external force' as any thing that causes me to do something. I say God caused me to prefer oranges over apples.

.... and what is your definition of "external force"? Does your having 10 fingers and toes caused by an external force or did you choose to have them. .... and although you cannot find a physical mechanism whereby you preferred an orange over an apple does not mean there was not an "external force" as the cause?

God is the First Cause of ALL THINGS. From nothing nothing comes.

 

[Arial]

If God has 'programmed' you to choose an orange over an apple, is that a "free choice"?

If God has 'not programmed' you to choose an orange over an apple, then what/who was the ultimate reason for you choosing an orange? (Remember, you are a created being so that means you didn't program yourself for from nothing nothing comes and at one time your were nothing).

Not sure where the idea of "programmed" comes into it. God does not sit about programming people. He governs all things according to his purpose. He created us as a being who has a will and if he were programming that will, it would not actually be a will. It would be a program.

As a being with a will we make choices. That is what "will" means. And we make them freely, without him making them for us. But freely making choices is not the same thing as a will that is entirely free. Our will came into bondage to sin, which is where the rubber meets the road when it comes to choosing Christ.

God created Adam with a will, the ability to make choices. But he did not create him with a will that was in bondage to sin, only able to sin by making a sinful choice. God in his eternal purpose intended for him to sin and all men to become sinners. But it was not God's will that did sin. It was Adam, as a morally responsible creature to God, who sinned. All this was for God's eternal purpose of destroying the devil and all evil from the planet. That is what we know, because that is what he tells us will be the end result. The details that are in what we cannot see, all the whys and wherefores we do not know because he does not tell us. They are the secret things of God.

It is all already done in God's perspective outside of our boundaries of time. None of our choices will affect a thing in that regard. And he knows all our choices before he ever set the plan in motion at creation. So then we come to the obvious question that if he knows them because he is governing them, is that not making them for us? As far as I am concerned the answer would be no. But can I explain or even know what it is instead? Nope. I can say "no" because that would make him the author of our sins and I know from what he has told us, that such a thing is impossible, given that there is no sin in him.

 

[Eleanor]

fine .. I define 'external force' as any thing that causes me to do something. I say God caused me to prefer oranges over apples.

Preference is internal.

A physical push would be external force.
"Free will," as it operates in Scripture, is about absence of external force; "the power to choose without external force or constraint what one prefers."

.... and what is your definition of "external force"? Does your having 10 fingers and toes caused by an external force or did you choose to have them. .... and although you cannot find a physical mechanism whereby you preferred an orange over an apple does not mean there was not an "external force" as the cause?

God is the First Cause of ALL THINGS. From nothing nothing comes.

 

[Eleanor]

Not sure where the idea of "programmed" comes into it. God does not sit about programming people. He governs all things according to his purpose. He created us as a being who has a will and if he were programming that will, it would not actually be a will. It would be a program.

As a being with a will we make choices. That is what "will" means. And we make them freely, without him making them for us. But
freely making choices is not the same thing as a will that is entirely free.

The human will does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by human preference.
Free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Our will came into bondage to sin, which is where the rubber meets the road when it comes to choosing Christ.

God created Adam with a will, the ability to make choices. But he did not create him with a will that was in bondage to sin, only able to sin by making a sinful choice. God in his eternal purpose intended for him to sin and all men to become sinners. But it was not God's will that did sin. It was Adam, as a morally responsible creature to God, who sinned. All this was for God's eternal purpose of destroying the devil and all evil from the planet. That is what we know, because that is what he tells us will be the end result. The details that are in what we cannot see, all the whys and wherefores we do not know because he does not tell us. They are the secret things of God.

It is all already done in God's perspective outside of our boundaries of time. None of our choices will affect a thing in that regard. And he knows all our choices before he ever set the plan in motion at creation. So then we come to the obvious question that if he knows them because he is governing them, is that not making them for us? As far as I am concerned the answer would be no. But can I explain or even know what it is instead? Nope. I can say "no" because that would make him the author of our sins and I know from what he has told us, that such a thing is impossible, given that there is no sin in him.

 

[CrowCross]

Before sovereign rebirth (Jn 3:6-8) by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), I am spiritually dead and can make no spiritual choices (1 Co 2:14).

Fruit is not a spiritual choice.

I have always said prior to becoming born again the un forgiven man has no free-will. All they have is their sinful natural default position which is not to choose Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

The human will does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by human preference.
Free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

We will always choose what we prefer. One preference will out rule the lesser preference.

 

[makesends]

Seemed an appropriate analogy. I write a program and the computer follows precisely. God has an eternal plan and implements it by creating humans who follow His plan precisely. Has any human ever swayed from God's plan? If not, what a coincidence it must be that our free will happened to coincide with His eternal plan.
Aside: I think we have a common belief in this matter.

One of the things that I see intuitively concerning how God does what he does, has to do with his infinity —that none of our assessments concerning the way of things, or even what we consider his attributes, work how we think. But I don't know how to put it into words.

The same idea shows up in, for example, that his infinite power is seen in the fact of the mundane, the simple, even 'natural', weak things, all working according to HIS purposes. Like our discussions of Jesus being SO human, yet did not sin, not by our concept of God's spectacular power and miracle, yet, we admit, because of God's power.

It also shows up in the very matter of his creation: From the get-go, God "could have", we say, made the end result he had in mind, "without all this mess", but we know no such thing. This is how God did it and it is mundane, plodding, even 'regrettable', (from our POV), and full of [apparent] failure and un-holiness, to the extent that people need to appeal to freewill to vindicate God, and to make Redemption a 'Plan B'. But the fact is, God did it "like this" only by our apprehension of what "this" is. We really don't know it the way he does. (And there we get into Immanence ) Lol, I use the notion of his being "outside of time" as if I know what that means; actually all I know is what the terminology implies to me.

Anyhow, I'm trying to say that the programming analogy, (while I have no intellectual nor moral problems if God should do such a thing), is not quite valid, in my mind, nor (of course) is uncaused freewill. But I don't think the usual ways around the notion are quite "the way of things", either. I find myself saying, "God is that far above us".


Ok. Enough rambling. Like I told someone lately, I have this tendency to start writing, hoping what I am trying to describe will show up in words, or maybe that the words that show up will help me think. Whatever, it is fun. But you poor saps have to put up with it.

 

[Eleanor]

I have always said prior to becoming born again the un forgiven man has no free-will. All they have is their sinful natural default position which is not to choose Jesus.

Prior to regeneration, man has the power to choose what he prefers.

 

[makesends]

Preference is internal.

A physical push would be external force.
"Free will," as it operates in Scripture, is about absence of external force; "the power to choose without external force or constraint what one prefers."

But the 'internal' is not without being caused, and that, by God. Nor is it without influence from outside causes. —unless I mistake what you mean by 'internal'. The internal does not happen in a vacuum.

 

[Eleanor]

We will always choose what we prefer. One preference will out rule the lesser preference.

Yes, that is what a free will does.

 

[Carbon]

Prior to regeneration, man has the power to choose what he prefers.

Sure he does. And you can be sure he will not choose God.

 

[Eleanor]

But the 'internal' is not without being caused, and that, by God. Nor is it without influence from outside causes. —unless I mistake what you mean by 'internal'. The internal does not happen in a vacuum.

Freedom is not about cause, it's about preference. . .being able to choose what one prefers.

 

[fastfredy0]

Preference is internal.

A physical push would be external force.
"Free will," as it operates in Scripture, is about absence of external force; "the power to choose without external force or constraint what one prefers."

So you having salvific faith is Free Will because God didn't exert "external force" ? Yes/no
So you having salvific faith is Free Will because, even though the Spirit regenerated you, God didn't exert "external force" ? Yes/no

Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all ... so, even though God controls me (fashions my heart), that is Free Will because there was no external force or constraint? Yes/no

 

[fastfredy0]

that none of our assessments concerning the way of things, or even what we consider his attributes, work how we think. But I don't know how to put it into words.

If you knew "how to put it into words" you would be contradicting yourself. *giggle*

 

[makesends]

Seemed an appropriate analogy. I write a program and the computer follows precisely. God has an eternal plan and implements it by creating humans who follow His plan precisely. Has any human ever swayed from God's plan? If not, what a coincidence it must be that our free will happened to coincide with His eternal plan.
Aside: I think we have a common belief in this matter.

Yes, I think we do too.

I object to the implications of the term, "programmed". Programmed systems have no will.

 

[makesends]

If you knew "how to put it into words" you would be contradicting yourself. *giggle*

Well, yeah, but when I said so I got asked why, then, did I even write the post.

 

[CrowCross]

Prior to regeneration, man has the power to choose what he prefers.

John 6:65 appears to present limits........And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[makesends]

Freedom is not about cause, it's about preference. . .being able to choose what one prefers.

Thank you! Exactly so, if 'freewill' is to be a valid concept. In fact, and I think you would agree, it is free ONLY in that sense.

 

[makesends]

John 6:65 appears to present limits........And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Yes, @Eleanor is not differing with that. I recall her many posts asking such things as why nobody can be perfect, regardless of what they suppose to choose. We cannot defeat gravity, though we might suppose ourselves to have chosen to do so. Nobody by act of will can add a cubit to their stature.