GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless and holy before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord uses to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory) to NO ONE.

When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something – the dust of the ground, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God who is heavenly (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, so does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing that Adam was a sinner created sin-ful ["missing the mark" of the glory of God.]

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would be applicable as follows:

ADAM: "What shall I say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam did bear the image of God in body, soul, and [human] spirit, a trichotomy. But he was also created of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ. Christ, the second Adam is from heaven. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed.

1 Samuel 24:13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned.

He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

 

[civic]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

How to kill a bird with one stone- One verse.

Everything God created was good, not evil.

Who should I believe ? God or you ?

Sin was passed down from adam as a result of the fall. There was no sin prior to the fall of angels and man.

hope this helps !!!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

How to kill a bird with one stone- One verse.

Everything God created was good, not evil.

Who should I believe ? God or you ?

Sin was passed down from adam as a result of the fall. There was no sin prior to the fall of angels and man.

hope this helps !!!

So the Command of "thou shalt not" doesn't show Adam as a sinner before his sin?

 

[civic]

So the Command of "thou shalt not" doesn't show Adam as a sinner before his sin?

no its a command to obey God and to heed His warning.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless and holy before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner.

Then you were taught well.

We know that God cannot abide the presence of sin, yes? And yet God walked with Adam in the Garden prior to the fall.

The Fall was a real thing and God pronounced a curse on all creation due too it.

In noodling on the fall I came to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were innocent but mutable. The Scriptures talk about elect Angels as well as people. Therefore I posit that there were non-elect angels. Elect meaning protected by God from "changing" to something other than perfect. Something other than God honoring.

Now...all THAT said...Lucifer was in the Garden. The tree of Good and Evil was in the Garden. God done pointed out the tree and said "don't".

I suspect an inside job.

Why? Why why why...Because God wished to be known, correctly, as both Just and Justifier. Correct knowledge of Himself is more important to God than your favorite Aunt Becky. Sorry...but it's true.

So all us creatures really should get with the program and appreciate that He stepped down out of love to save some of us.

 

[civic]

Then you were taught well.

We know that God cannot abide the presence of sin, yes? And yet God walked with Adam in the Garden prior to the fall.

The Fall was a real thing and God pronounced a curse on all creation due too it.

In noodling on the fall I came to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were innocent but mutable. The Scriptures talk about elect Angels as well as people. Therefore I posit that there were non-elect angels. Elect meaning protected by God from "changing" to something other than perfect. Something other than God honoring.

Now...all THAT said...Lucifer was in the Garden. The tree of Good and Evil was in the Garden. God done pointed out the tree and said "don't".

I suspect an inside job.

Why? Why why why...Because God wished to be known, correctly, as both Just and Justifier. Correct knowledge of Himself is more important to God than your favorite Aunt Becky. Sorry...but it's true.

So all us creatures really should get with the program and appreciate that He stepped down out of love to save some of us.

The sin misnomer with God as some teach cannot look upon sin. Habakkuk 1:13

This idea comes from a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13 which states your eyes are to pure to look upon evil. What that means is God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency, not that He cannot look at sin or allow sin in His presence as we shall see below. God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. In the book of Job we read God allows satan into His presence to make a deal with him over God’s servant Job and God restricts satan and tells him he can do anything but touch Job/ lay a hand or finger on him. Jesus at His weakest point after 40 days in the wilderness was in the presence of satan face to face. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me? You see Jesus who is God was a friend of sinners. He ate with them, lived with them, fellowshiped with them and finally gave His life for them. Jesus loved sinners enough to die for them.

 

[ReverendRV]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

How to kill a bird with one stone- One verse.

Everything God created was good, not evil.

Who should I believe ? God or you ?

Sin was passed down from adam as a result of the fall. There was no sin prior to the fall of angels and man.

hope this helps !!!

Perfect...

 

[brightfame52]

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

How to kill a bird with one stone- One verse.

Everything God created was good, not evil.

Who should I believe ? God or you ?

Sin was passed down from adam as a result of the fall. There was no sin prior to the fall of angels and man.

hope this helps !!!

Everything God Created was Good, Good for His Purpose in Christ, a Eternal Purpose and a Redemptive Purpose.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

The sin misnomer with God as some teach cannot look upon sin. Habakkuk 1:13

This idea comes from a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13 which states your eyes are to pure to look upon evil. What that means is God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency, not that He cannot look at sin or allow sin in His presence as we shall see below. God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. In the book of Job we read God allows satan into His presence to make a deal with him over God’s servant Job and God restricts satan and tells him he can do anything but touch Job/ lay a hand or finger on him. Jesus at His weakest point after 40 days in the wilderness was in the presence of satan face to face. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me? You see Jesus who is God was a friend of sinners. He ate with them, lived with them, fellowshiped with them and finally gave His life for them. Jesus loved sinners enough to die for them.

Cool...but whether I subscribe to this or my line of thought I'm not subscribing to Adam and Eve being sinful prior to the Fall.

 

[civic]

Cool...but whether I subscribe to this or my line of thought I'm not subscribing to Adam and Eve being sinful prior to the Fall.

Amen neither am I as they were created in Gods image which is good, not evil or with sin.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Everything God Created was Good, Good for His Purpose in Christ, a Eternal Purpose and a Redemptive Purpose.

Which is simply saying that everything that God created was like a painting. Pleasing to God for it's purpose but has no bearing on the morality of the creation in question. So not useful in this context unless you are saying that Adam and Eve were sinful prior to the Fall.

 

[brightfame52]

no its a command to obey God and to heed His warning.

You dont believe it was Gods will for Adam to disobey God and bring sin and death into the world ?

 

[civic]

You dont believe it was Gods will for Adam to disobey God and bring sin and death into the world ?

That is a different argument. We are discussing good and evil, not Gods will.

 

[ReverendRV]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless and holy before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord uses to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory) to NO ONE.

When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something – the dust of the ground, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God who is heavenly (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, so does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing that Adam was a sinner created sin-ful ["missing the mark" of the glory of God.]

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would be applicable as follows:

ADAM: "What shall I say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam did bear the image of God in body, soul, and [human] spirit, a trichotomy. But he was also created of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ. Christ, the second Adam is from heaven. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed.

1 Samuel 24:13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned.

He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

Jesus is the Second Adam. Adam was Created Good, therefore Jesus was made Good as well. This shows that neither Adam or Jesus were Sinners...

 

[ReverendRV]

Jesus is the Second Adam. Adam was Created Good, therefore Jesus was made Good as well. This shows that neither Adam or Jesus were Sinners...

Perfection ~ by ReverendRV * August 8

Hebrews 5:9 KJV; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. This is something that is pretty hard to swallow; unless you consider this as speaking of Christ’s Humanity. You ask, “Why would a perfect man need to be made perfect??” Your question is bogged down with a Presupposition; when the Bible says that he needed to be made perfect, why would you say that he was already perfect? ~ I know someone who is troubled by a relative who comes to their house and always judges how clean it is. This relative is the type who spring-cleans their home daily. The judging is harsh, but the truth of the matter is that the house is cleaned ‘Good’; although it may not be ‘Perfect’. I told this person not to worry, even ‘Good’ was good enough for God; let me explain. ~ When God created the world he saw that it was ‘Good’. We have a tendency to define this as ‘Perfect’ because there was no Sin in the world; yet. Just like Jesus, the first Man Adam needed to be perfected. Keeping the Law of God comes with a promise; ‘it will be our Righteousness’. But the problem is that only Adam and Jesus could be made Perfect by God’s Law; It makes us Imperfect…

These two men were brought forth Sinless and are the only two people that God chose to be Federal Heads for Humanity; you are either with one or the other. Since everyone else is born in Adam’s jurisdiction, the Law of God cannot help you at all. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone that tells Lies? Not so perfect; are you? Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call someone who Steals? Have you ever used God as a filthy cuss word? Just how many of the Ten Commandments can we break and still be Good; no less still be Perfect?? These are only a few of the ten; if God judged you by them would you be guilty or innocent? God sends guilty Sinners to Hell forever. ~ You object, “You said earlier that ‘Good’ is good enough for God?!” This is true for someone who is like Switzerland and neutral; but you are not an unfallen Adam or a Jesus Christ…

You need to be made perfect, there is still time! Adam ate the apple and broke the Law of God, becoming imperfect. But Jesus kept the Ten Commandments and this made him Perfect. As God, he loves the world so much that he shares his perfect record with all who will believe in him as their Lord and Savior. Jesus died on a Cross, was buried for three days but rose from the dead; you can’t keep a perfect man down! We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Christ our Lord, without our trying to perfect ourselves. If we try to earn perfection, then Grace is no longer Grace. ~ Find a Church and start reading the Bible; Repent of your Sins and Confess Jesus as Lord. Though God sees the Church as Perfect because of his Perfect Son, we will not be perfected until he returns to Judge the world. He has left us his Perfect Holy Spirit and the Bible to help us along the Way…

Psalm 18:13 NIV; As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

 

[brightfame52]

Which is simply saying that everything that God created was like a painting. Pleasing to God for it's purpose but has no bearing on the morality of the creation in question. So not useful in this context unless you are saying that Adam and Eve were sinful prior to the Fall.

Obviously yes, they were sinners before their actual sin, they were only innocent in the beginning. Their sin made it manifest that they were sinners, that was the purpose of the Law given them Rom 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

See Christ was already setup as the Surety for the sins of Gods elect before the world began, before Adam began, so it was imperative that man be made to know his need for Christs Salvation from sin.

 

[civic]

Jesus is the Second Adam. Adam was Created Good, therefore Jesus was made Good as well. This shows that neither Adam or Jesus were Sinners...

That should put an end of this discussion.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless and holy before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner.

ANd you were right to believe exactly that. Adam's NATURE never changed (He always had a "human nature", (just like you, me, and Jesus). and Adam followed the process in James one perfectly - letting his LUST conceive, and resulting in Sinful actions. NOTHING was "Passed down", and I was fully capable of becoming a "Sinner" as soon as I SINNED and fell short of God's glory - just like you did.

 

[ReverendRV]

That should put an end of this discussion.

Jesus spent 30 years trying to be Perfected; from his Baptism on, he had to maintain his Perfection until his Death. YEC vs OEC aside, Adam was Good for maybe a day before he Fell. Jesus was Good for 30 years before he was Perfected. In their State of Good Innocence, neither were Sinners...

 

[civic]

Jesus spent 30 years trying to be Perfected; from his Baptism on, he had to maintain his Perfection until his Death. YEC vs OEC aside, Adam was Good for maybe a day before he Fell. Jesus was Good for 30 years before he was Perfected. In their State of Good Innocence, neither were Sinners...

Although I might not see things eye to eye above your conclusion is 100% biblical and true.