GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[ReverendRV]

Although I might not see things eye to eye above your conclusion is 100% biblical and true.

It's one reason Fundamentalism is so important. Jesus is the Second Adam; this is a Fundamental. What does this Fundamental tell us about the First Adam? In this Case, it tells us that neither were Sinners...

Man, I so wish that Christians catch on to Fundamentalism as a Hermeneutic...

 

[jeremiah1five]

no its a command to obey God and to heed His warning.

Just like all the other commands in the Law and other commands not contained in the Law.
IF there is a command "thou shalt not" it reveals that one is a sinner to do it.
Paul said:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Adam would not know disobedience except the law/command said, "THOU SHALT NOT EAT OF IT!"
It's not hard to understand, but it is to accept that the Law/Command SHOWS US we are sinners. AND the Law/Command was in the Garden.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

God created man (Adam) sin-ful and Adam went about his life not knowing disobedience UNTIL the command came and it wrought in him all manner of concupiscence. It messed him up. Then there is the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil God used to show him his sinfulness. And it did exactly that. Adam gained the KNOWLEDGE that he was a sinner before he sinned for God made that KNOWLEDGE clear to him after he disobeyed.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

So was Adam. And when the Commandment came in the Garden of Eden sin revived and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

So did Adam. He found the SAME THING Paul is talking about.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

It blasted a hole in him THIS BIG! Pow! (so to speak).

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Speaks for itself.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Simple.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom. 7:7–14.

As Adam was carnal. And corrupt.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Then you were taught well.

We know that God cannot abide the presence of sin, yes? And yet God walked with Adam in the Garden prior to the fall.

The Fall was a real thing and God pronounced a curse on all creation due too it.

In noodling on the fall I came to the conclusion that Adam and Eve were innocent but mutable. The Scriptures talk about elect Angels as well as people. Therefore I posit that there were non-elect angels. Elect meaning protected by God from "changing" to something other than perfect. Something other than God honoring.

Now...all THAT said...Lucifer was in the Garden. The tree of Good and Evil was in the Garden. God done pointed out the tree and said "don't".

I suspect an inside job.

Why? Why why why...Because God wished to be known, correctly, as both Just and Justifier. Correct knowledge of Himself is more important to God than your favorite Aunt Becky. Sorry...but it's true.

So all us creatures really should get with the program and appreciate that He stepped down out of love to save some of us.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8.

Before God created anything a Lamb was slain.

And for good reason.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The sin misnomer with God as some teach cannot look upon sin. Habakkuk 1:13

This idea comes from a misunderstanding of Habakkuk 1:13 which states your eyes are to pure to look upon evil. What that means is God cannot look at sin favorably or with complacency, not that He cannot look at sin or allow sin in His presence as we shall see below. God did not turn His back on adam when he sinned but sought him out, He didn’t turn His back on David when he sinned. God does not turn His back on us when we sin as He is there with open arms to forgive. In the book of Job we read God allows satan into His presence to make a deal with him over God’s servant Job and God restricts satan and tells him he can do anything but touch Job/ lay a hand or finger on him. Jesus at His weakest point after 40 days in the wilderness was in the presence of satan face to face. Jesus didn’t turn His back on Saul when he was persecuting the church and in fact sought him out on the Damascus Road and said to him” why are you persecuting Me? You see Jesus who is God was a friend of sinners. He ate with them, lived with them, fellowshiped with them and finally gave His life for them. Jesus loved sinners enough to die for them.

And yet the Holy Spirit of God is on the planet up to His Holy Neck in deep doo-doo of the sin of the non-elect until a trumpet blows.

And God didn't turn His back on Adam either.

 

[jeremiah1five]

ANd you were right to believe exactly that. Adam's NATURE never changed (He always had a "human nature", (just like you, me, and Jesus). and Adam followed the process in James one perfectly - letting his LUST conceive, and resulting in Sinful actions. NOTHING was "Passed down", and I was fully capable of becoming a "Sinner" as soon as I SINNED and fell short of God's glory - just like you did.

So, we are sinners because we sin?
How does that apply to babies who haven't committed an act of sin?
If the baby was strong enough he/she would reach up and strangle its mother.
But they are not strong enough and this doesn't happen?

Isn't it that we sin because we are sinners?

 

[jeremiah1five]

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven [distinction]. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall [future-tense] also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Cor. 15:47–49.

If the image of God is still future then who was God saying in the Garden is created in His image?

His Son.

There is no better image of a Father than His Son.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus is the Second Adam. Adam was Created Good, therefore Jesus was made Good as well. This shows that neither Adam or Jesus were Sinners...

And yet Adam sinned?

Sin comes from sinners.
Sin does not come from holy or righteous or neutral or innocent.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Sin comes from sinners as wickedness comes from the wicked.

Do you agree with the Scripture?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus spent 30 years trying to be Perfected; from his Baptism on, he had to maintain his Perfection until his Death. YEC vs OEC aside, Adam was Good for maybe a day before he Fell. Jesus was Good for 30 years before he was Perfected. In their State of Good Innocence, neither were Sinners...

He sinned because he was a sinner.
He is not a sinner because he sinned.

 

[jeremiah1five]

ANd you were right to believe exactly that. Adam's NATURE never changed (He always had a "human nature", (just like you, me, and Jesus). and Adam followed the process in James one perfectly - letting his LUST conceive, and resulting in Sinful actions. NOTHING was "Passed down", and I was fully capable of becoming a "Sinner" as soon as I SINNED and fell short of God's glory - just like you did.

And his human nature was fallen short of the glory of God.
In the Genesis account there is no evidence he lusted.
It says his wife gave it to him and he ate.
No lust is indicated.

 

[ReverendRV]

And yet Adam sinned?

Sin comes from sinners.
Sin does not come from holy or righteous or neutral or innocent.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Sin comes from sinners as wickedness comes from the wicked.

Do you agree with the Scripture?

The Good not Perfect Adam, like the Good not Perfect Jesus; was Tempted but without Sin...

 

[jeremiah1five]

Obviously yes, they were sinners before their actual sin, they were only innocent in the beginning. Their sin made it manifest that they were sinners, that was the purpose of the Law given them Rom 5:20

Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

See Christ was already setup as the Surety for the sins of Gods elect before the world began, before Adam began, so it was imperative that man be made to know his need for Christs Salvation from sin.

Innocent until the Command came.
He sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.
The act of sin did not make him a sinner.
He was sinful before the act. The Tree was to give him the KNOWLEDGE he was evil.
After the illusion of his being good.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Good not Perfect Adam, like the Good not Perfect Jesus; was Tempted but without Sin...

Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.
Do you agree with this?

 

[brightfame52]

Innocent until the Command came.
He sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.
The act of sin did not make him a sinner.
He was sinful before the act. The Tree was to give him the KNOWLEDGE he was evil.
After the illusion of his being good.

I agree. The Law was given so that they would learn of their sinnership and need for the seed of women, which is Christ.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You dont believe it was Gods will for Adam to disobey God and bring sin and death into the world ?

Sin and death were already in the world with the creation of Adam.
He just didn't know it.
Until he gained the KNOWLEDGE from the Tree and from God.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22.

So, if the Tree of Life would gain Adam eternal life (live forever) then Adam was "missing the mark" of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin."
Many claim that Adam was holy, or righteous, or innocent, or neutral, or corrupt but corruptible, NONE of that matters if he was not eternal. For lacking eternalness would mean he was fallen short of the glory of God who is eternal, and Holy, and Righteous, and All-Mighty, and All-Knowing and All-wise, and Omniscient, and...all those other true Deific Attributes and Nature of God.
The ONLY PERSON that can stand before a Holy God is a Holy Son and Holy Spirit.
ALL created beings fall short of this glory that is God.

 

[ReverendRV]

Adam sinned.
Sin comes from sinners.
Do you agree with this?

I do not agree with this as a Universal Fundamental; No. Both Adam were Good, until they were Perfected..

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree. The Law was given so that they would learn of their sinnership and need for the seed of women, which is Christ.

And all that info was provided him in the succeeding verses of Scripture.
And the plan of God's redemption was given generationally and throughout human history at God's appointed times, even prophets wanted to look into the things they prophesied.
God controls how much Biblical Light each person and each generation receives.
It wasn't until the Advent of the Son did anyone know of a Trinity.
And with this post I am not the only one in the Church whose light is shining upon a people of God to bring light to their minds so that they may see more clearly this "so-great salvation."
I am what I am.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I do not agree with this as a Universal Fundamental; No. Both Adam were Good, until they were Perfected..

So, where does sin come from?
Holy?
There is only holy and unholy, righteous and unrighteous, good and evil.
It's a bilateral universe and God made it that way.
For or against.
Life or death.
Only two ways.
One or the other.
There are no grey areas with God.
And there should be none with us.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I do not agree with this as a Universal Fundamental; No. Both Adam were Good, until they were Perfected..

And how and when were they both perfected?
If Adam was good then sin comes from good as you imply?

 

[ReverendRV]

And how and when were they both perfected?
If Adam was good then sin comes from good as you imply?

Now you're talking...

Adam was Created a little lower than the Angels, and THE Angel Sinned in the Perfect environment of Heaven...

 

[ReverendRV]

And how and when were they both perfected?
If Adam was good then sin comes from good as you imply?

Jesus was Perfected by Keeping the Law of God, and Adam was Perfected by being in Christ; as Christ Perfects us All apart from the Law of God...