GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

So, you want to know what the God and Christ of the Bible says about such things?

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The word "good" in Hebrew means "good" [enough] or "to specification" as in a "job well done." It was good, created to "specification" according to God's purposes. It means nothing else.

James Strong, “‏טוֹב‎" ṭôb is a verb = "good" a primitive root, to be (transitive do or make) good (or well) in the widest sense.

It doesn't mean morally "good" in any grammatical way for then it would be another word and that word would be a noun.
All you've done is post the Scripture and haven't defined the word for understanding. I have. Your understanding of this word being more than an adjective fall short. It doesn't mean "holy" or anything morally defined for again, it would be another word and the word would be a noun.

Quoting Kermos #172: (because I could not say it any better and his response explains a great deal, so I suggest you take it to heart and come to the knowledge of the truth. If you are honest with Scripture, that is.)

According to the "good Adam" teaching, God had an original plan for Adam to live forever in the paradise on earth where Adam was made, and it is just termed the Good Plan until Adam ate the fruit.
I equate "spiritually alive", "upright", "perfect", "righteous" and the like with "good" for the purposes of this sidebar.

Advocating the "good Adam" precept advocates the concept of good people converting to evil people; in other words, a GOOD Adam conquering a GOOD command of God [thou shalt not eat] in order to convert to an EVIL Adam.

The "good Adam" precept goes with the GOOD God being surprised by the GOOD Adam destroying the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A of the GOOD Adam living forever in God's GOOD paradise, so the GOOD God in a panic abandoned the GOOD Plan A to develop a GOOD Plan B to expel the EVIL Adam from paradise into a CURSED land with the GOOD promise of a Redeemer. The GOOD Plan A stopped being GOOD Plan A, so that means GOOD Plan A converted to EVIL plan A since the GOOD Adam caused GOOD Plan A to error out.

So, the "good Adam" precept conveys that God unwittingly created everything only to have it catastrophically crumble right in front of God. By the hand of man taken away from God. With God at the mercy of man. Unmercy perhaps being a better word.

This means GOOD God produced an imperfect plan, formerly GOOD Plan A now EVIL plan A; in other words, the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A failed with a spiritually alive Adam lost to be spiritually dead; in other words , the "good Adam" precept has it that GOOD Adam thwarted GOOD God, so GOOD God was too small to preserve GOOD Plan A, so GOOD God converted to EVIL god (this is following to where the "good Adam" precept leads), and EVIL god was incapable of preserving a spiritually alive person.

See that the "good Adam" precept has man snatching the "very good" of creation right out of God's hand; not only that, the man acts self-destructively during the snatching.

The "good Adam" precept has a good man doing the action of an evil man, so that is not a good man.

The "good Adam" doctrine leads to a different god than revealed by the Word of God.

The "good Adam" precept grossly distorts good and evil. The "good Adam" precept is confusion in the knowledge of good and evil.

In conclusion, the supporters of the "good Adam" precept advocate for good people converting to evil people which is absent from the entirety of the scripture; on the other hand, the Word of God is replete with God converting evil people into good people in Christ.

Moreover, God is good, and God's Way is good. Man is evil, yet God works all things out for good for the man of God's Way.

In actuality, with God there is no plan B - God is mightier than that. God's plan for the Redemption of Mankind through the Christ succeeds and is victorious, and this is God's plan before the foundation of the world.

Thank you, Kermos.

 

[Ghada]

James 1:14 is exactly what transpired in the Garden of Eden.

True. Your christ came in after creation and inspired them in their own lust, even as Lucifer inspired himself with the first lusting and sinning against His Creator.

You post the Scripture, but you don't believe it.

You don't believe James 1:13, where God is not the tempter of angels nor men to sin. The true Christ has never created nor made any creature with sin, nor to sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

True. Your christ came in after creation and inspired them in their own lust, even as Lucifer inspired himself with the first lusting and sinning against His Creator.

You don't do in-dept study, do you. You are satisfied with getting your doctrinal understanding from a translation which will lead to error. You have no idea what James is saying.

You don't believe James 1:13, where God is not the tempter of angels nor men to sin. The true Christ has never created nor made any creature with sin, nor to sin.

God doesn't tempt He any man, Scripture says, and I believe it.
Just be virtue of man's creation is proof enough that he was created sinful or fallen short of the Eternal glory of God. God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. God is Eternal. Man is created and is not. By not being eternal he falls short of the Eternal glory of God. The word is "sin" and it means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" he missed in his creation? The Eternal glory of God.
Case closed.

 

[Kermos]

You have been given a warning and demerits for this post. You may come from a place where calling people a liar and untrustworthy is par for the course, but we are not going to have that sort of thing on this forum.

To the church leader staff of the christcentered.community.forum city-site and anyone else who henceforth tampers with my accessibility or with the posts that God caused me, a foreigner of this city-site (as are all of us Christians (1 Peter 2:11)), to compose, which means God owns these posts, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time" (Acts 13:10-11) - this includes tampering for any reason, such as preventing public view, alteration, and/or site access restrictions. Recall your censorship of former post #189 (of which, a repost of #189's content is at post #205).

God be glorified in all things (1 Peter 4:11)!

THE WORD OF GOD IS PROCLAIMED. TO QUOTE THE HEAVENLY VOICE, "LISTEN TO HIM" (MATTHEW 17:5)!

The Word of God declares that GOD IS the exclusive Good One in all time and Chooser of people unto salvation:

• "No one is good except God alone" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18), so no one, not even Adam, noone is good except the One True God.
• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God exclusively chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of the Word of God outlined here are to all believers in all time.

If you do not believe in who the Word of God says that GOD IS, then you do not believe in who GOD IS.

The only way for Free-willian Philosophers to acheive free-will is for them to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Some people think, that like Adam illegally took of the tree (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3:6), they can illegally take of that which is Holy (with their "I chose Jesus") through their own initiative power instead of the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) causing themselves to be rewarded with being born of God (John 3:3-8) resulting in God's righteous induction of the person as a citizen in the Kingdom of God (John 15:15), so their thoughts convert grace (the unearned love of God) into their earned love of God because of their "I chose Jesus".

In all things glorify God (1 Peter 4:11)! The free-willian hallmark "I chose Jesus" glorifies man in the power of man (Matthew 15:9), not glorifying God in the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:16, John 15:19). We Christians glorify God by doing good deeds (John 3:21) for the Christ of us Christians says "By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples" (John 15:8).

A person has one type of will, either a will in the image of Christ (Romans 8:29) for the born of God (John 3:3-8) unto eternal life in Christ or a will in the image of Adam for the born of flesh (Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 15:22) also Biblically called self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) unto eternal punishment.

 

[Kermos]

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

God Himself implicitly stated Adam was good.

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

That was said after the events of Genesis 3:6. It is a statement said after Genesis 3:6 about conditions existing after Genesis 3:6, not before then. It is completely inappropriate, incorrect, and reprehensible to take verses said/written about the post-disobedient world and apply them to the pre-disobedient world. It is bad methodology that leads to bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice.

Your "God Himself implicitly stated Adam was good" thoughts result in you adulterating Holy Scripture with a singular (grammatically), independent, focused, narrow, specific view of Adam of the creature that God created which results in your concept of "God saw Adam that He had made, and behold, Adam was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day", but that is your deception because God truly specified a plural (grammatically), aggregate, broad, wide, general view of "all" of the creation that God created with the specific plan of God's Plan for the Redemption of Mankind through the Christ (1 Peter 1:19-22) for it is written "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day" (Genesis 1:31).

God saw God's good craftsmanship of the creation, that is, "it was very good" (Genesis 1:31), and God saw all of the creation was proceeding according to God's Good Plan for the Redemption of Mankind through the Christ (1 Peter 1:19-22) for the Creator "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good" (Genesis 1:31)! Praise God for salvation! Praise God for redemption! Praise God for God!

A fascinating grammatical construct occurs in Genesis 1:31. The words "all" and "it" are plural grammatically, but the word "good" is singular grammatically; therefore, the plurality of creation is singularly good; in other words, the whole of creation is one good creation, so you express illogic and broken language when you think you can split Adam apart from the rest of creation using Genesis 1:31 to arrive at your "God Himself implicitly stated Adam was good" thoughts.

Furthermore, this Holy Scripture recorded in Genesis 1:31 is constrained by the Word of God "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18). Praise God for the Savior, Redeemer, God, and Lord Jesus Christ!!! My Jesus is the center of Holy Scripture, this Christ of us Christians!

You preach that Mark 10:18 "is a statement said after Genesis 3:6 about conditions existing after Genesis 3:6, not before then", so your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) adulterates the Word of God into not the Word of God being your "No one is good except God and Adam before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"; however, your thoughts are out of accord with Lord Jesus Christ's comprehensive declaration of "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18) covering the entirety of creation before, during, and after Genesis 3:6, so God did the good job in the making of creation per Genesis 1:31 in Truth (John 14:6).

The only exception recorded by Mark in the Lord's saying (Mark 10:18) is in regards to God, but in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you add to the Word of God by you injecting an additional exception for Adam in Mark 10:18 as shown above, yet you were warned in post #135 with:

​

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).​

​

A liar is an untrustworthy source, so, since you proved yourself to be untrustworthy, then the balance of your words below your words of "bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice" are leavened by your deception (all unadulterated Scripture is explicitly excluded from this statement), so those words of yours are part of your opening paragraphs.

A liar adds to God's Word, and such evil activity, to quote you, is "bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice" - in fact, adding to the Word of God is a mere human practicing lawlessness about which the Word of God declares:

​

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’​

(Matthew 7:21-23)​

​

Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.​

(Matthew 7:26-27)​

​

This is a repost of the content of post #189.

 

[Kermos]

You have been given a warning and demerits for this post. You may come from a place where calling people a liar and untrustworthy is par for the course, but we are not going to have that sort of thing on this forum.

Treat others the same way you want them to treat you (my and all we Christian's Lord Jesus Christ, Luke 6:31).

You wrote "You may come from a place where calling people a liar and untrustworthy is par for the course.".

I want others to be truthful with me just as I am truthful with others by God's grace and for God's glory!

I love God for the Living God Who indwells me is love! I love my neighbor as myself, so I tell my neighbor the Truth (John 14:6), the Word of God (John 1:1-5, John 1:14), so that my neighbor may be delivered from hell in the Blood of Christ!

By God's grace for God's glory, I herald the Good Message originating from the Throne of God, and this Glorious Message shines the Light (John 1:1-5) piercing the deceptive darkness of evil men, Amen!

To you, @Mod46 (see the 4 in your pseudonym/screen name) and @Josheb (Member number ID number 4 on the christcentered.community.forum site), both of you have a number 4 associated with your identity on this city-site.

Someone with a 4 in their site ID composed "we are not going to have that sort of thing on this forum", yet someone with a 4 in their site ID wrote
"It is a statement said after Genesis 3:6 about conditions existing after Genesis 3:6, not before then." regarding "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), SO, IN EFFECT, YOU CALL JESUS A LIAR BECAUSE JESUS INCLUDES ADAM WITHOUT YOUR EXCEPTION; however, someone with a 4 in their site ID still has the offending post on this site, so you happily retain people who call Jesus a liar on this city-site.

Someone with a 4 in their site ID composed "we are not going to have that sort of thing on this forum", yet someone with a 4 in their site ID wrote "bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice" about me as recorded in post #189 (of which, a repost of #189's content is at post #205) - oh, but wait, someone with a 4 in their site ID deleted post #189 after someone with a 4 in their site ID read "the Hebrew word "רַע" (Strong's 7451 - ra' - bad, evil)", so someone with a 4 in their site ID is aware that bad and evil are synonyms (as published in post #179 (when originally posted, currently post #178)), and the evidence of someone with a 4 in their site ID reading that bad and evil are synonyms is recorded in post #189 where someone with a 4 in their site ID wrote "Post 179 isn't any better".

All that last paragraph bears witness that someone with a 4 in their site ID called me an evil person, even a liar, with "bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice", yet someone with a 4 in their site ID declares publicly "we are not going to have that sort of thing on this forum" so someone with a 4 in their site ID better start deleting someone with a 4 in their site ID's posts and issuing demerits to someone with a 4 in their site ID as well as threatening excommunication from the christcentered.community.forum site against someone with a 4 in their site ID in order to be impartial and non-hypocritical.

Someone with a 4 in their site ID attributed all this evil "bad thinking, bad doctrine, bad conclusions, and bad practice" to me.

Hypocrisy or favoritism will be evident unless someone with a 4 in their site ID takes action against someone with a 4 in their site ID.

The Word of God says about people who scribe hypocritical writings, "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" (Matthew 23:13)

You persecute me for lovingly telling the Truth (John 14:6), and that persecution and deletion of the Word of God is EVIL!

Continued to the repost of post #189's full content at post #205 content.

 

[Kermos]

Yes, in post 180 I did write "God did declare Adam God" but that was a typographical error and I am gladly, willingly, immediately, and overtly able to correct that mistake. Adam was not God and he was not made God. Adam was made good.

I'd like to see the same from you because in Posts 180 and 182 I also explicitly stated the point correctly: "Adam was good."

Posts 130, 146, 180 and 182 prove otherwise.


You're trolling and being dishonest. I am going to move on because, despite my patience and goodwill, the effort to get an intelligent cogent op-relevant conversation out of you has failed multiple times.

You uttered evil against me again when you called me a troll (your closing paragraph as quoted above) because I proclaim the unadulterated Word of God to you - the very Word of God that you adulterate.

"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:11).

Now, back to that which you are incapable of refuting with Holy Scripture.

Our exchange is plain as the nose on your face.

God created evil Adam (Isaiah 45:7, Mark 10:18) according to Holy Scripture, and NO Holy Scripture declares that Adam was good.

Post #189 (replaced with post #nnn) is the post to which you replied - then moderator with a 4 (@Mod46) wickedly did the non-Christian deed of concealing the true Word of God contained in post #189 from public view but not before User With ID# 4 (@Josheb) wickedly did the non-Christian deed of labeling me a troll as revealed in post #189.

(Original link to post #189, but now replaced with post #205 due to a man centered deed of wrongful censorship by a christcentered.community.forum 4 person)

 

[Ghada]

You don't do in-dept study, do you.

'In-depth' study of the Bible is mostly a digging past the plain words to come up from the ditch with something else.

The deep study of justify sinning, is not the deep things of God.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Pseudo-scholars such as yourself get a really in-depth intellectual kick and jolt of pride, but it's all just cheap smoke and mirrors to doers of the truth.

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

It's not hard to spot. All it takes is seeing whole lot of deeply-dug words to change the Bible into something else. And it's invariably always to justify oneself, rather than just repent for Jesus' sake and be justified by the righteous Lord.

Honest unbelievers just say they don't believe it and move on. These the Spirit of grace can convict and help to repent. It's the intellectualized rabbis of old, and teachers of today that God can't help.

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Actually, after seeing enough of it, it all begins to become redundant and boring. It's all just a different mixture of the same old same old.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I've seen it so many times in one form or another from the same motivation and source, that I just cast out all his variations to the dust beside me and move on.

Although, If I do see some new twist to it, then I'll take the time to rebuke it with Scripture first, and then just add it to the long list of ditch digging doctrines.

You stating plainly that your god makes sinners is at least honest, and so much better than other unrepented Christian sinners masking it with silly teachings about being made with a sin-nature, can't stop sinning, must sin from cradle to grave, no more condemned while sinning, the righteous doers are self-righteous, blah blah blah...

You are satisfied with getting your doctrinal understanding from a translation which will lead to error.

I favor the KJ because of it's language and doctrinal accuracy. But I'm not averse to tweaking some parts of it's trasnlation in order to make the truth shine more clearly.

Ex: KJ trasnlation of the Son sent in the likeness of 'sinful flesh', can be better doctrinally translated as in the likeness of sinners in the flesh.

That agrees more closely with the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ come in the flesh, and the Son made in the likeness of men.

There is no sinful flesh, because no flesh, grass, nor dust of the earth is sinful, but only naturally mortal. Only sinful men can be sinful in the flesh. Which Jesus never was, nor are them in Christ Jesus today.

You have no idea what James is saying.

I can read and understand the words written on a school grade level.

God doesn't tempt He any man, Scripture says, and I believe it.
Just be virtue of man's creation is proof enough that he was created sinful or fallen short of the Eternal glory of God. God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. God is Eternal. Man is created and is not. By not being eternal he falls short of the Eternal glory of God. The word is "sin" and it means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" he missed in his creation? The Eternal glory of God.
Case closed.

The true God is not a sinful creator.

Sinfulness only comes from the sinful.

As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

All the attempts of sinners like yourself to justify it, and worse yet blame your sinning on God, is as old as the devil blaming God for not allowing men to be as sinful gods forever. The god of this world is the maker of your life and doctrine, not Jesus Christ from the Bible.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Afterall, claiming your god to be sinful like you, can't get any more idolatrous than that. And trying to believe the spirit of your god is the Spirit of Christ, is the fastest way to searing the conscience to the conviction of God against your continued unrepented sinful living.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

In fact, you're false accusation against the holy Lord and God as the 'real' god and maker of sinful creatures, is so obvious, that I wonder if you are another satanist-christian. There are such christian satanists that openly preach their creator as the author of sin and sinners in this world. And his first great commandment is just to do no harm in the process... They name the name of Christ as well.

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise.

I mean, it's nothing new, and not even that surprising anymore. Though the devil is already god of this world, he still seeks to destroy the churches by doctrine from within. That way there is less and less hindrance letting him have his complete way in the world.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

There's the marxist pope, homosexual ministers, and wokeness in the world. I just sum it up to the prophecy of strong delusion. I don't argue with it or even try to battle against it. I just expose it by Bible truth and move on.

Live and let live I say in this life, until the Lord comes again to destroy all the garbage and rule on earth for a thousand years with your old god shut up in hell with his other sinful angels. (And sinful children)

 

[Sheila3]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

One thing is for sure for those who believe in scripture _ Adam was created with the capability of committing sin, which is disobeying God, because he did.

 

[jeremiah1five]

One thing is for sure for those who believe in scripture _ Adam was created with the capability of committing sin, which is disobeying God, because he did.

Adam and the woman were already sinners before they disobeyed God at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
By adding to God's word, they were found out liars and thus sinned before the sin at the Tree.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.

They said, "neither shall ye touch it!"

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen. 3:3.

They were sinners which explains why they disobeyed God and ate from the tree.

Sin comes from sinners. Wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

 

[Mr GLee]

Adam and the woman were already sinners before they disobeyed God at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
By adding to God's word, they were found out liars and thus sinned before the sin at the Tree.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.

They said, "neither shall ye touch it!"

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen. 3:3.

They were sinners which explains why they disobeyed God and ate from the tree.

Sin comes from sinners. Wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Adding did not make then sinners, Satan added. They failed the true test .

Will you believe in a God not seen who designed the will of man to be faithful to his voice. ? .

They were given a temporal spirit subject to the letter of law (death ) They in dying came to the end of life never to rise to new. God considers all of mankind dead.

Unconverted mankind as a foundation "out of sight out of mind " as in who believes in a God not seen ? Seek after the dead the temporal things of this world as if the dead were living .(thou shall surely not die)

They it would seem have no revelation from Christ as it is written (sola scriptura) No desire for the spiritual unseen things of God like Cain or Esaul, Onan, the firstborns . to represent our first birth. . . no power to know God. God calls them all fools.

Isiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and (or with) to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, (One) it is because there is no light in them.

The word Seek used twice. Hebrew darash or necromancy it is used in two ways . The drawing of God, a blessing or the drawing of sin, a curse,

In effect saying should not a people seek unto the living God who to speaks to dead (mankind ),

He focuses on really dead never to rise up to new spirit life. They that seek the dead the temporal seen They are shown as those who do not speaking according to the law and prophets another way of saying as it is writen (sola scriptura) the living word working as a lamp unto thier feet light on the path strengthened by the Spirit .Yoked with Christ our burdens can be lighter with a living hope beyond the grave

Don't pray to dead relatives or dead renowned mankind .Some call patron saints

 

[jeremiah1five]

Adding did not make then sinners, Satan added. They failed the true test .

Will you believe in a God not seen who designed the will of man to be faithful to his voice. ? .

They were given a temporal spirit subject to the letter of law (death ) They in dying came to the end of life never to rise to new. God considers all of mankind dead.

Unconverted mankind as a foundation "out of sight out of mind " as in who believes in a God not seen ? Seek after the dead the temporal things of this world as if the dead were living .(thou shall surely not die)

They it would seem have no revelation from Christ as it is written (sola scriptura) No desire for the spiritual unseen things of God like Cain or Esaul, Onan, the firstborns . to represent our first birth. . . no power to know God. God calls them all fools.

Isiah 8:19-20 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and (or with) to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, (One) it is because there is no light in them.

The word Seek used twice. Hebrew darash or necromancy it is used in two ways . The drawing of God, a blessing or the drawing of sin, a curse,

In effect saying should not a people seek unto the living God who to speaks to dead (mankind ),

He focuses on really dead never to rise up to new spirit life. They that seek the dead the temporal seen They are shown as those who do not speaking according to the law and prophets another way of saying as it is writen (sola scriptura) the living word working as a lamp unto thier feet light on the path strengthened by the Spirit .Yoked with Christ our burdens can be lighter with a living hope beyond the grave

Don't pray to dead relatives or dead renowned mankind .Some call patron saints

Lying is not a sin?

In what universe is that true?

 

[Mr GLee]

Lying is not a sin?

In what universe is that true?

Lying is a sin. All lies belong to Satan the father of all lies who adds ad substracts words to the commandments. He used Eve as a false prophet, false apostle sent to spread his lies

False prophets sent by the father of lies are liars they are guilty for spreading the lies of the father of lies.

In that way our Holy Father the invisible head is the Father of all truth

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He began his lies with Adam an Eve murdering mankind. Passed it on to Cain a false apostle the first born used to represent our first birth Murdered the second born Abel to represent our second birth .

Raised up Seth anther second born to replace Abel the first true apostle sent as a martyr. passes on the born seed to another second born ending with the birth of the Son of man Jesus the first born of many sons of God. Fulfilling the second born sign to represent our new birth . darkness to Light


Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

 

[Ghada]

It doesn't mean morally "good" in any grammatical way

Not for the animals created bodily well, but only for man created in God's own image, which is spiritually good and true.

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Natural unbelievers do not acknowledge the Spirit of God created man's soul in His own image.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

And so, it's not surprising the natural unbelievers quote words applied to atheists:

Ps 14:1
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

According to the "good Adam" teaching, God had an original plan for Adam to live forever in the paradise on earth

Then the 'good Adam' teaching is false.

Adam created good in the image of God, was commanded to subject all the earth to himself and his offspring.

His resurrection from the dead with immortal flesh and bones, would be after His natural flesh and blood died.

where Adam was made, and it is just termed the Good Plan until Adam ate the fruit.
I equate "spiritually alive", "upright", "perfect", "righteous" and the like with "good" for the purposes of this sidebar.

Advocating the "good Adam" precept advocates the concept of good people converting to evil people; in other words, a GOOD Adam conquering a GOOD command of God [thou shalt not eat] in order to convert to an EVIL Adam.

The "good Adam" precept goes with the GOOD God being surprised by the GOOD Adam destroying the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A of the GOOD Adam living forever in God's GOOD paradise, so the GOOD God in a panic abandoned the GOOD Plan A to develop a GOOD Plan B to expel the EVIL Adam from paradise into a CURSED land with the GOOD promise of a Redeemer. The GOOD Plan A stopped being GOOD Plan A, so that means GOOD Plan A converted to EVIL plan A since the GOOD Adam caused GOOD Plan A to error out.

Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Whenever I begin to see a bunch natural man philosophy, I just move on. No need to 'decipher'.

Ecc 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

So, the "good Adam" precept conveys that God unwittingly created everything only to have it catastrophically crumble right in front of God.

I just move on to the conclusion of unbelievable philosophy.

It reminds me of the anti-millennialists, that say the Lord's reign expired catastrophically crumbling right in front of God.

In conclusion, the supporters of the "good Adam" precept advocate for good people converting to evil people which is absent from the entirety of the scripture;

The Lord calls it rebelling against God by transgression:

Ps 5:10
Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Is 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

on the other hand, the Word of God is replete with God converting evil people into good people in Christ.

True. And the Lord also calls rebelling against Him after conversion, repenting of repentance to do good:

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1Pe 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Moreover, God is good, and God's Way is good.

True. It's good of you to say so.

Man is evil,

We see you are by your own confession, as well as quoting Scripture for yourself as no good unbeliever.

No man was evil until man sinned, and all have sinned, but not all are sinning today.

There are still a few elect saints in Christ Jesus on earth.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Lying is a sin. All lies belong to Satan the father of all lies who adds ad substracts words to the commandments. He used Eve as a false prophet, false apostle sent to spread his lies

False prophets sent by the father of lies are liars they are guilty for spreading the lies of the father of lies.

In that way our Holy Father the invisible head is the Father of all truth

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He began his lies with Adam an Eve murdering mankind. Passed it on to Cain a false apostle the first born used to represent our first birth Murdered the second born Abel to represent our second birth .

Raised up Seth anther second born to replace Abel the first true apostle sent as a martyr. passes on the born seed to another second born ending with the birth of the Son of man Jesus the first born of many sons of God. Fulfilling the second born sign to represent our new birth . darkness to Light


Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Lying is a sin. That's correct. It says in proverbs anyone that adds to God's Word is a liar and that's what Adam and the woman did. The woman added to God's Word when she said, "neither shall ye touch it" and Adam added to God's Word when He told her to not eat of it.
Thus, they were sinners BEFORE they ate from the forbidden tree. Eating from the forbidden tree was their second sin thus destroying the long-held heresy of a "Fall."
There was no fall. God created Adam and the woman from clay/dirt, dirt is not holy but is of the earth, earthy, and there is a universe of distinction between the Lord from heaven and sinful Adam and the sinful by-product of a woman, Eve. God created them sinful and "missing the mark" of God's own glory.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not for the animals created bodily well, but only for man created in God's own image, which is spiritually good and true.

Man was not created "spiritually good and true."
They were created a natural man and woman:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Cor. 15:43–47.

You need to learn the difference between natural and spiritual.

1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Natural unbelievers do not acknowledge the Spirit of God created man's soul in His own image.

Everyone no matter if born again or not remains in a natural state of existence on this earth.
Do not be deceived.

And so, it's not surprising the natural unbelievers quote words applied to atheists:
Ps 14:1
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

David wrote this Psalm. He wrote it in a natural state of existence.

Then the 'good Adam' teaching is false.
Adam created good in the image of God, was commanded to subject all the earth to himself and his offspring.

I agree after God created the man that He said it was "good" or in other words, "good enough," or "to specification."
We do the same thing after a job is done well. We bake a cake, taste it, and say, "it's good" meaning, it's "good enough" or made "to specification" if we rely on a recipe. The word good doesn't mean anything but what I just now said.

His resurrection from the dead with immortal flesh and bones, would be after His natural flesh and blood died.
Col 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Whenever I begin to see a bunch natural man philosophy, I just move on. No need to 'decipher'.
Ecc 12:12
And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
I just move on to the conclusion of unbelievable philosophy.
It reminds me of the anti-millennialists, that say the Lord's reign expired catastrophically crumbling right in front of God.
The Lord calls it rebelling against God by transgression:
Ps 5:10
Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
Is 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
True. And the Lord also calls rebelling against Him after conversion, repenting of repentance to do good:
2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
1Pe 2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
True. It's good of you to say so.
We see you are by your own confession, as well as quoting Scripture for yourself as no good unbeliever.
No man was evil until man sinned, and all have sinned, but not all are sinning today.
There are still a few elect saints in Christ Jesus on earth.

 

[Ghada]

Man was not created "spiritually good and true."

The natural man does not believe we have souls created in the image of God.

Do not be deceived.

Even the natural man knows we have natural flesh and blood, just like any other natural creature on earth. A different shape of course, but still natural.

2Co 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Some carnal minds don't believe man has a soul created in the image of God, and some don't believe His image is good.

It's like some some don't believe God is come in the flesh, while others don't believe He came in the same natural flesh of every man, but rather in some sort of immortal demigod flesh...

Everyone no matter if born again or not remains in a natural state of existence on this earth.

True. From the first Adam to the 2nd Adam and all men born between and today, we are all walking in natural flesh and blood.

David wrote this Psalm. He wrote it in a natural state of existence.

True. All the prophets and apostles of God are natural pens in the hand of the Spirit.

 

[Sheila3]

Adam and the woman were already sinners before they disobeyed God at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
By adding to God's word, they were found out liars and thus sinned before the sin at the Tree.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Prov. 30:6.

They said, "neither shall ye touch it!"

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen. 3:3.

They were sinners which explains why they disobeyed God and ate from the tree.

Sin comes from sinners. Wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Capable Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

CAPABLE meaning: 1 : able to do something having the qualities or abilities that are needed to do something + of; 2 : skilled at doing something able to do something well

www.britannica.com

Wouldn't the use of the words "being created with the capability to sin" mean that sin was already in them? If sin was not already in them they would not have the capability to sin.

Maybe my understanding of words and my ability to combine words into sentencing is incorrect, especially to some.

 

[Mr GLee]

Man was not created "spiritually good and true."
They were created a natural man and woman:

Mankind was created good and true /Let there be and it was God alone good.

Mankind was subject to the letter of law of God (death) the loving merciful commandment " (thou shall not) .

God who created the will of man and give him a memory. When they were deceived surely you will not die look at my beauty and live forever by the false prophecy. . . the memory of the spiritual things disappear

Memory one of the better gifts that is taken for granted .One of the most painful labors of love for a family of one sufferings. Remember him in the days of youth and keep it as long as you can. Do not wait till old and lack desire. That comes along with memory loss. The appointment to die once

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Christ our supernatural hard drive .Earth to Mr, GLee . . . Recalculating. . . turn repent go the other way make a U turn. . your destination on the right side up LOL

 

[jeremiah1five]

The natural man does not believe we have souls created in the image of God.

Oh, I think the unsaved believe we have souls. They just don't know that in our present natural existence they are 'created' in the image of God, which is not really true in and of itself. When God created man, He created him 'fallen short of the glory of God' which is the same as saying he (and the woman) were created sinful, a word that means "missing the mark" in Greek. This is why they sinned twice in the Garden. They sinned first by lying about what God said about not eating from the forbidden tree. God said this:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen. 2:16–17.

Then came the creation of the woman. Adam told her what God said and added to God's words. He added the words "neither shall ye touch it" thus proving he was a liar. People do that here on sites like this today. They add to God's words all the time.
Then, the woman added to God's word by also repeating what Adam told her or she added these words all on her own, but I think she only repeated what the man told her thus showing ignorance and also adding to God's word.
They both sinned by adding to God's word and sinned again by eating from the forbidden tree. So, they sinned twice while in the garden. This destroys the heretical teaching of a "fall."

Even the natural man knows we have natural flesh and blood, just like any other natural creature on earth. A different shape of course, but still natural.

2Co 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Some carnal minds don't believe man has a soul created in the image of God, and some don't believe His image is good.

It's like some some don't believe God is come in the flesh, while others don't believe He came in the same natural flesh of every man, but rather in some sort of immortal demigod flesh...

True. From the first Adam to the 2nd Adam and all men born between and today, we are all walking in natural flesh and blood.



True. All the prophets and apostles of God are natural pens in the hand of the Spirit.