Free Will ~yet again.

[Rella]

This quote:

“The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but of life. It cannot be grasped by reason and memory only, but it is fully understood when it possesses the whole soul and penetrates to the inner recesses of the heart.” ― John Calvin

Is the byline under the Theology Questions title above.

A rather profound thought.... that necessity of possessing the whole soul.

I recently read a commentary regarding "Free Will" and would like to open up a discussion of why you say it is not so, or why you are certain it is.

@JIM and others please jump in.....

Before that, though, I think Calvin's thoughts on free will need to be looked at so that one can understand that predestined believing people do not arbitrarily say free will is out the door. (The entire link is a good read)

Did John Calvin Believe in Free Will?

Matthew Barrett discusses whether or not John Calvin believed in the concept of Free Will.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

I will add that Calvin held a belief in free will? One That all depends on the meaning. If by free will one means that the unbeliever is in no way necessitated by sin, but has it in his power to either do good or evil toward God, then the answer is no. But if one means that the unbeliever is in total bondage to sin, sinning willfully yet under necessity (not coercion), making him utterly dependent upon God’s irresistible grace to liberate him, then Calvin is your man.

Now, if that makes little sense, I understand. Much of Calvin's thoughts make little sense.... but he did not just dismiss the idea out of hand.

And it seems the following has too many characters... so I shall continue it next. PLEASE READ BOTH BEFORE COMMENTING....

 

[Rella]

Above continued

What Is Free Will in the Bible and How Does it Relate to Our Salvation?

Read What Is Free Will in the Bible and How Does it Relate to Our Salvation? by Clarence L. Haynes Jr. and more articles about Christian Terms and Wiki on Christianity.com

www.christianity.com

​

What Is Free Will in the Bible and How Does it Relate to Our Salvation?​

The question of free will is probably a debate we will have until Jesus comes again. While you can find arguments on both sides of this question, this should not be our main mission or focus. We have a responsibility to preach the gospel and give people the opportunity to hear it and respond.
Clarence L. Haynes Jr.
Contributing Writer
UpdatedSep 28, 2023

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One of the marks of being human is that God has given us the ability to choose. Some may refer to this as the power of choice, but no matter how you define it, we all have a free will.

When you look at what the Bible says about free will, you discover that we have the right and the ability to choose the direction we will go and what we will do. This power to choose is not something that should be considered lightly, because what comes along with the power to choose is the reality there are consequences for your choices. While many love the freedom that comes with free will and the power of choice, sometimes people don’t always want to own the ramifications that come with it.

What Is Free Will?​

Here is one definition of free will from a Scriptural sense: Free will is the power to decide what you will do in a certain situation. However, don’t forget your choices have consequences. Here is an example from Scripture of the free will we have.

“You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is good for you. You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is beneficial” (1 Corinthians 10:23).



This verse is making an implication that while it is true you have the right to do anything you want, the truth is everything you do is not beneficial for you or for those around you. While you have the right to make your own choices, you must also remember the responsibility that comes with it. To take it a step further, as Christians you must not just think about how your choices affect you, but how your choices affect others. There is something else the Bible says about free will that we sometimes want to overlook. Look at the very next verse in 1 Corinthians 10:
“Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others” (1 Corinthians 10:24).
While we do have free will as Christians, we must remember we don’t live in a vacuum. If you are going to be a true follower of Christ, then you must exercise your free will with the reality of how your choices will impact other people.

What Does the Bible Say about Free Will?
Let’s take a look at what the Bible says about free will. Here are three examples of free will for you to chew on.

1. We have free will to decide who we will serve.
“Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:14-15).

2. We have free will to decide if we will obey or disobey.
“If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God” (Deuteronomy 28:1-2).



“However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you” (Deuteronomy 28:15).

3. We have free will to decide between life or death.
“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Deuteronomy 30:19-20).

​

Why Do Christians Disagree about Whether or Not We Have Free Will?​

While most people will not necessarily debate the free will we have in making moral choices, there is another debate among believers as to whether we truly have free will in our salvation. Is salvation already pre-determined?

When it comes to salvation there are things the Bible says about free will that may cause some to imply we have no choice in our salvation decision. Here are two scriptures to consider.
“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).
“In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).

These two verses highlight the challenge of understanding what the Bible says about free will in regards to your salvation. If we are all predestined with no choice in the matter, then how can you say God is being just, if he has taken away our choice? However, the Bible clearly uses the word predestined, which means determined in advance. I know there are great theological debates on this topic, but I want to present a more simplistic argument that I believe helps us understand what predestination means as it applies to salvation.

When you look at the verse in Romans 8, it says God foreknew. This means God knew in advance those who would choose to follow him and those who would choose not to follow him. The ones he knew in advance are the ones he predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. In other words, God’s predestining is based on his foreknowledge, not his random selection. This understanding allows God to remain just and still hold people accountable for their choices.
Without this understanding, then salvation is a random act and God chooses who he will save and who he will not, removing our free will from the process. I don’t think the rest of Scripture can completely support that argument.

Why Does the Debate about Free Will in the Bible Matter?​

There are many places in Scripture that cause us to ask questions where we may not be certain of the answer. This is one of them. The best we can do right now is look through a glass dimly and ascertain from Scripture what we believe to be true. Ultimately what we know is this – regardless of how you view predestination, the Bible is clear: we have a choice to make. There are too many places in Scripture that point to our free will in making the decision to follow Christ. With your eternal destination at stake, it makes sense when it comes to your salvation that you choose wisely. This matters more than anything else.

 

[Arial]

Before I go step by step through what you have posted (I do not have the time to do so right now), I will just say: The doctrine of Total Depravity is dealing with one thing and is the first letter in the acronym that stands for the doctrines of grace. Though the T has been the source of much debate dealing with the freedom of the human will, doing so loses sight of the teaching itself. It is not concerned with whether the will is free or not, but with the condition of mankind that makes the grace of God necessary for salvation. It is the very condition of mankind before God that makes his will not free.

Mankind in his God designed ability to make choices, through Adam's sin making us all sinners, is free to not sin all the time but his desires dictate that he will sin sometimes. It is not free from that, and therefore cannot reconcile himself to God. No sin is acceptable to God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Before I go step by step through what you have posted (I do not have the time to do so right now), I will just say: The doctrine of Total Depravity is dealing with one thing and is the first letter in the acronym that stands for the doctrines of grace. Though the T has been the source of much debate dealing with the freedom of the human will, doing so loses sight of the teaching itself. It is not concerned with whether the will is free or not, but with the condition of mankind that makes the grace of God necessary for salvation. It is the very condition of mankind before God that makes his will not free.

Mankind in his God designed ability to make choices, through Adam's sin making us all sinners, is free to not sin all the time but his desires dictate that he will sin sometimes. It is not free from that, and therefore cannot reconcile himself to God. No sin is acceptable to God.

That last paragraph is really interesting, made a lot of sense...as you say NO sin is acceptable to God.

I will read what Rella posted, I have never understood free- will...will be interesting where this thread takes us.

 

[Arial]

Before I go step by step through what you have posted (I do not have the time to do so right now), I will just say: The doctrine of Total Depravity is dealing with one thing and is the first letter in the acronym that stands for the doctrines of grace. Though the T has been the source of much debate dealing with the freedom of the human will, doing so loses sight of the teaching itself. It is not concerned with whether the will is free or not, but with the condition of mankind that makes the grace of God necessary for salvation. It is the very condition of mankind before God that makes his will not free.

Mankind in his God designed ability to make choices, through Adam's sin making us all sinners, is free to not sin all the time but his desires dictate that he will sin sometimes. It is not free from that, and therefore cannot reconcile himself to God. No sin is acceptable to God.

Rella,

Because you post this as a quote, it can't be requoted. I split screened my laptop and clicked the link you give and will attempt to address the points that way.

 

[Arial]

One of the marks of being human is that God has given us the ability to choose. Some may refer to this as the power of choice, but no matter how you define it, we all have a free will.
christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-free-will-and-how-does-it-relate-to-our-salvation.html

This is an opinion but it does not define free will, it presumes it, and makes an unsupported claim that we have what is not defined. Is our will entirely free of all coercion, free of all restraints? What is free for or free from?

Our will is acted upon---always. We have a will, and because we have a will that produces actions, those actions are always based on an internal or external "force." Be it a threat or desire for one thing over another. So it is not free in that sense.

The issue from the start is being handled with way too much laxity. It is the power of choice, the ability of choice, but that does not in and of itself make it free. So let's pull the conversation back to what the article is really promoting and what it is denying. It is promoting our ability to to choose or reject Christ without any assistance from God. It is rejecting the idea of God electing some to salvation and regenerating them for that purpose. Next I will address the arguments given to defend this "free will" position.

 

[Arial]

When you look at what the Bible says about free will, you discover that we have the right and the ability to choose the direction we will go and what we will do. This power to choose is not something that should be considered lightly, because what comes along with the power to choose is the reality there are consequences for your choices. While many love the freedom that comes with free will and the power of choice, sometimes people don’t always want to owchristianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-free-will-and-how-does-it-relate-to-our-salvation.htmln the ramifications that come with it.
The right and the ability to choose the direction we will go and what we will do, does not mean our will is free. Ability and freedom are not synonyms.
The above then moves into the topic of consequences and away from the topic of free will.

What Is Free Will?​

Here is one definition of free will from a Scriptural sense: Free will is the power to decide what you will do in a certain situation. However, don’t forget your choices have consequences. Here is an example from Scripture of the free will we have.
That is not a definition of free will from Scripture or anywhere else. It is never called free will in scripture, it is choice.
Here is an example from Scripture of the free will we have.

“You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is good for you. You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’—but not everything is beneficial” (1 Corinthians 10:23).

I don't know what translation this is coming from but it is deeply distorted and separated from context as well. 1 Cor 10:23 ESV "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. In the context Paul is talking about all foods being lawful. That is a far cry from "I am allowed to do anything."
While we do have free will as Christians, we must remember we don’t live in a vacuum.

So far free will has not been defined, our will not proven to be free. It is really using "free will" as a moral teaching tool when the article was supposedly addressing the theological issue.

 

[Arial]

1. We have free will to decide who we will serve.

“Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:14-15).

All four examples are taken from the OT law and pertained to the covenant "legal document" that was the law, that gave blessings for obedience, cursing for disobedience. To use it as an argument for the case of free will is to misuse it. No one denies that if given a choice of obedience or disobedience the choice has been offered and sentient being decide for themselves. That does not prove our will is free. It proves we make choices when choices are given.

That argument cannot be carried into the New covenant which has no written legal code, to say we have free will to choose or reject Christ. The argument against free will that many find in the doctrines of Calvinism/Reformed ( which are really no where in it, it only came up from the opposition to the natural result of Total Depravity in the doctrines of grace, and a rebellion against election and predestination) is not concerned with people making choice, or people not having a will, but with the condition of man in relation to God that requires grace. It is the grace of by grace you are saved through faith. The other four aspects of the doctrines of grace follow automatically from this condition of mankind which cannot stop sinning or do anything to atone for the sins he has committed or will commit.

 

[fastfredy0]

Any discussion of "free will" is futile if one does not define "free will".

I define "free will" as the ability to chose independent of any external influence.
Our choices are determined by our desires; whatever one chooses is determined by what one desires most at the time. Our desires are NOT self-determined; a non-existent being cannot chose his desires before he is created. One desires must comes from another source, call it God or evolution (whatever floats your boat). Since our desires are NOT self-determined our will is not free as defined above. Psalm 5:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me” (NKJV). The verse clearly states our desires at conception were set in iniquity; thus "free will" as defined above is not true.

1. Matthew 7:18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit .... Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. Since I was born from and unclean thing I cannot ever be clean. I could not determine my desires. (Sorry mom)
2. Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. Billions of people and not one can be righteous? What are the odds of that if each of us has free will.
3. Romans 7:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Can't be done

yada, yada, yada

 

[Alive]

I am not as well versed as some are in how this discussion has been articulated tons of times throughout history, so pardon my simplicity.
One way that occurs to me is to ask this question or series of questions.
Is ‘will’ a force that can operate to change anything? Say, in the physical world?
Is ‘will’ a choosing to do a thing that then needs the willer to activate some tool of force that will effect some change?
Is ‘will’ a wish for a thing to be with no effectual means?

I suggest thinking about those things before delving into the religious and spiritual.
Or, I am just nutz and ignore it.

 

[Arial]

I am not as well versed as some are in how this discussion has been articulated tons of times throughout history, so pardon my simplicity.
One way that occurs to me is to ask this question or series of questions.
Is ‘will’ a force that can operate to change anything? Say, in the physical world?
Is ‘will’ a choosing to do a thing that then needs the willer to activate some tool of force that will effect some change?
Is ‘will’ a wish for a thing to be with no effectual means?

I suggest thinking about those things before delving into the religious and spiritual.
Or, I am just nutz and ignore it.

What the will isn't:

It isn't a visible part of us made up of matter.

It is not autonomous---that is, something that acts independently of anything else.

What the will is cannot be described. It can only be described as related to our actions.

It might be said to be the thing that produces the actions, or perhaps the actions themselves.

No action or choice is made without some motivation that moves it one way or the other. IOW the will does not act of its own free will.

The will is not free.

People simply confuse the fact that we make choices and act upon those choices, with our will being free. In soteriology free will is used to express the doctrine that man's will is free to either accept or reject Christ. Man's ability to freely make choices now becomes the lynch pin to deny the clear Scriptural teaching of God's choice in election, and their way of explaining what not all people are saved.

The will is not free to choose Christ. It needs to be set free. The reason it is not free to choose Christ is because in the fall Adam became a sinner and we are all like our Father---we are sinners. We are free to not always sin but we are not free to never, ever sin. We will sin. And we cannot change that by an act of our will. And we cannot atone for our past or present sins by willing anything. We have to be born again from above, and then we joyously believe and choose Christ.

 

[Rella]

I am not as well versed as some are in how this discussion has been articulated tons of times throughout history, so pardon my simplicity.
One way that occurs to me is to ask this question or series of questions.
Is ‘will’ a force that can operate to change anything? Say, in the physical world?

Technically yes. Like that 20 year old who just tried to eliminate Donald Trump.

It has been about a year since he joined a local gun club.... after failing miserably in his high school shooting.
This club is one where all forms of law enforcement train.

I wont go into him at all, but he made the choice to try and take out trump or was "hired" to do so .

Is ‘will’ a choosing to do a thing that then needs the willer to activate some tool of force that will effect some change?

For sake of expedience I would use the shooter at he is in mind right now.

Is ‘will’ a wish for a thing to be with no effectual means?

I suggest thinking about those things before delving into the religious and spiritual.

No, you are fine. but when it comes to free will there are all sorts of things that ones will will effect.

Now at the risk of bringing those water people down on me again I will use one thing that was my life experience. (If you are one....dont tell me)

When I was a baby I was Protestant baptised mas a baby. I spent the next 12/13 years in study about Jesus . Parents, Sunday School, Communicants Class and then when appropriate I was permitted to join our church... not before... and have my first Holy Communion.

That day was a ceremony welcoming me (and others) into the family of God, confessing our beliefs in Jesus and then the elements.

And I grew up secure of my having been a very lucky girl that my parents would see I had gotten baptised, and the church for my education.

I WAS NOT a perfect little angel. Biut there were three times I know that God had my back in prayer. I would explain but that really is between the Father and me.

I had a crisis when I turned 37 years old and knew I had slipped from the way I was to have lived my life... so I did a 180 and turned myself to
what I always referred to as "Growing in God". I would say the Holy Spirit allowed me just enough rope to not hang myself but to truly pull me in..... Was this all part of my "predestination"? I never thought that. I knew guilt. I also knew myself.

So about 2013 imagine my shock... and pure fear that shot through me when I was told by about 9 people, of the same church , (c of C) on
a different forum that I was not saved. I would never be saved. And I certainly could not count myself born again. I went into a tail spin of despair and long story short... I searched for a way to be dunked. One person said if I could get to their house many states away he would in his swimming pool. The local Baptist would... but not private like the Eunuch and needed to be in front of their congregation... (that did not sit well with my 80ish mom) and then one c of C said they suggested a different c of C due to step involvement and my mom... and finally another c of C interviewed us, and after a week said they decided against it. Then I found one church that had a baptism might for anyone who wanted to be... they did not care what your beliefs were.

That was close to 10 years ago and here I sit with my baby baptism, and I have made a choice not to push getting dunked.

If it happens , great but if not... my spirit is born again .... and if it was a matter of necessity then God would make it happen.

If it was that I was pre-destined. Otherwise it was my free will choice to not push it.

Or, I am just nutz and ignore it.

 

[fastfredy0]

Is ‘will’ a force that can operate to change anything? Say, in the physical world?
Is ‘will’ a choosing to do a thing that then needs the willer to activate some tool of force that will effect some change?

Yes, Yes. "WILL" is the ability to choose amongst options.
Now the question is: "What is the FREE part in the definition of FREE WILL? With that definition you have the foundation for further discussion. What determines our WILL to choose amongst options?

 

[Mr GLee]

Technically yes. Like that 20 year old who just tried to eliminate Donald Trump.

It has been about a year since he joined a local gun club.... after failing miserably in his high school shooting.
This club is one where all forms of law enforcement train.

Technically it is Christ our husband that miraculously works in us to both hear his will and empower us with his daily bread in order to do it to his good purpose .

The fruit or meat of the Holy Spirit that the apostles did not know of below . Freely with no cost on our behalf. Freely we have received it

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Living in earthen bodies of death we have no power to please eternal God our Holy Father

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

He designed the. . "Let there be will" and it was :"God alone good"

 

[Ritajanice]

My thoughts.

How can our free will set us free from sin?

I didn’t even know I was in sin, not until I was set free from sin, when I became Born Of The Spirit by the Holy Spirit.

A Born Again is a spirit child and belongs to the Spirit Of God, we are His and no others...in the world not of the world.

We are in a completely different realm, we are in Gods realm here on earth...we are His to do with us whatever is pleasing to Him and brings Glory to his name.

There is only freedom when we are in Christ/ Born Again.....one’s own freedom of choice as one calls it can never set one free from sin.

Please tell me how you can “ freely” choose to become Born Of The Spirit?

I’ve been trying to understand this for years and years...understanding Gods word...one can only become Born Of God’s seed by His Spirit.

I’ve heard some say they even have conversations with God , rejecting him...I guess it’s because of the way I was Born Again ...I thought everyone was Born Again that way..they aren’t...that’s what I find difficult to understand...

I can only understand the rebirth the way it came to me by divine revelation, which is Biblical.....our spirit is Born Again...not our brains on what we read in the word.


Just my thoughts....

 

[JIM]

Free will as it relates to our relationship with God is simply the ability to choose whether to obey God or not. The idea that God would set down rules and regulations, i.e., God's law, and then not give the ability to understand them and not give the ability to decide whether or not to obey them is an indignity to God.

The whole controversy about free will is the result of Calvin's and Reformed Theology's assertion of Total Depravity. If in fact God gave us the ability to understand His law and the ability choose whether or not to obey His law, then Total Depravity is false at the very outset and the soteriology of Reformed Theology is in total error.

 

[Ritajanice]

That’s an interesting read @JIM ...thanks for sharing.

 

[JIM]

That’s an interesting read @JIM ...thanks for sharing.

What did you find interesting in it? It stands in complete rejection of so much of what you advocate.

 

[Ritajanice]

What did you find interesting in it? It stands in complete rejection of so much of what you advocate.

I just found your post interesting from your perspective, I’m not saying I agree with it.

A Born Again imo will always be obedient to the will of God...I mean God showed me his will for an area of my life as a new babe.

It scared me silly, I didn’t understand it at the time, again it came by divine revelation, therefore I ignorantly rejected it..that was nearly 33 yrs ago.....God knew exactly what I would do when he revealed his will to my heart....it was all part of his plan...it’s a very long story, well , I am now 100% being obedient to his will, there is so much to this story, I’ve cut it extremely short...I’m 100% in harmony to his will,( my will is in line with his will) .

Gods will can never be thwarted...now I’m in a good place and am enjoying his will coming to fruition, mind Blowing stuff....but, it was the hardest journey of my life to get to the place I’m at today...I couldn’t have done it without the Holy Spirit, who keeps me on that narrow path.
..my relationship with God is very much Alive and Active...the Holy Spirit indwells my spirit, working everything out according to God’s plan....it’s all about God and His Living Power....that gives Life to my spirit.
Just my opinion/testimony and belief.

 

[JIM]

I just found your post interesting from your perspective, I’m not saying I agree with it.

I must assume that you do not agree with it. It is incompatible with what you believe.